project89

iTrader: (1)

The ultimate iron headed turbocharging guide

So u want to build the baddest turbocharged 2.8/3.1/3.4 possible,well heres a list of parts and part combinations to get u the most out of ur build


first step is to pick ur hp goal and figure out what parts u need to meet each goal

200-250 rwhp

pretty basic easy to hit with a small turbo and mostly stock bottom end,can even be hit with stock heads/cam ( manual cars will need an aftermarket clutch) t3/t4 hybrid turbos work great

250-400 rwhp

hp still pretty easy but requires ported heads and a aftermarket cam 252 and the 260 grinds are nice for this range,but a better cam choice would be a reverse split pattern camshaft i.e 260/252, 268/260, 272/262 etc etc etc.and dont forget the matching valve train comonents springs locks and retianers.forged pistons arent required here but i do recomend them specially if u have no tunning experiance. also at this hp level expect to get into some major tunning of the stock ecm or going aftermarket ecu ( megasquirt fast bs3 etc etc)
along with the above u will be getting into the fuel system (i.e pump regulator etc)

not to mention things like transmission/clutch etc

stock the 700r4 will not hold up to these power levels for long, with a shift kit and good trans cooler it is possible to get a decent life span out of them though,but with that said depending on how u drive the car still expect for the trans to give out

stock the t5 may or maynot hold these power levels, the clucth on the other hand will not hold u will need an aftermarket clutch something like the spec stage 2 or 3 i recomend atleast a stage 3 which will hold back 680 Ftlb's, with the iron heads u will make tons more tq then u do hp so plan accordingly (example when we dynoed my car it dynoed over 100 ftlbs more tq then hp)

t3/t4 sized turbos are ok for this range but start to run out of steam at around 375-400 and also create alot of heat which will make it much easier to get detonation
a t3/60-1 - t4/60-1 and a t4 t66 are much better choices

the t3/60-1 will give much better low end responce then the t4 60-1 or the t66 but will fall off on the top end

just keep in mind that the larger the turbo the higher in the rpm range the power will be made

400 + rwhp

first off u will need to get into the trans/fuelsystem/ecu stock or aftermarker just like the 300-400 hp range as well as heads that have been very well ported,same with the intake

as far as the intake goes the 3.4 intake is actually a better choice then the stock 2.8/3.1 piece as the runners are shorter, but it does suffer from to small of a plenum, the 3.4 inatke is easily modifable though to increase volume.

another option is to have a plenum build for the 2.8/3.1 intakes

cam selection
will deffinatly be on the large side minimum 260 range but i would look into the 272 duration range.solid roller or hydroller conversion will deff be a much better choice then the hyd flat

turbo headers

idealy 1-5/8's primarys are ideal but unfortuntly u cant go 1-5/8's from the flange so steped headers need to be built 1.5 inch off the head to 1-5/8's tube,keep the 1.5 inch pieces short as possible

now u dont need the steped tubes 1.5 inch primarys will work but he steped tubes would be better all just depends on how far u want to go

downpipe size should be a 3 inch minimum period

at the hp level u will deff want to go with something other then a t5 or 700r4
the easy way to do this would be swap to a tko600 which is basically a bolt in deal for t5 guys

another option is the speedway motors trans adapter
this adapter opens up tons of transmission possibilitys
th350
th400 ( overkill )
4l60e
t56
etc etc etc

as far as engine internals u deff dont want to run the stock pistons wih this much hp one lean spot or a lil bit of detonation at these power levels will shatter the stock pistons no doubt

also look to spend money having small journal 327 rods machined to fit at this point,its not 100% necasary.
But for piece of mind i wouldnt run the stockers atleast not without having them resized and arp bolts installed,id also have the beams polished

main studs deffinatly

the entire roating assembly should be very carfully balanced expect to b spinning this motor above 7500 rpms


ok thats it for now next post will get more indepth on the engine combinations for each hp range

project89

iTrader: (1)

here are the minimums u would need to hit each level

200-250rwhp combination

any stock shortblock 2.8/3.1/3.4 in good condition
now the larger the engine the easier it will be to hit the mark

a word of caution though the 3.4's larger bore is more suceptable to detonation im not going to go into to much detial here i can do that later but with the larger bore u typically r going to want to run less timming then u would on the smaller bore engine

stock cams work fine for these hp levels,but aftermarket cams make it easier to hit the goal

stock heads will work as well
an under k member style turbo hotside system is the cheapest way to go and will get u to ur goal

with a bone stock engine,under k style system, and the supporting fuel injectors/tune it will take around 14-18 psi of boost from a t3/t4 hybrid to hit the 200-250rwhp mark on a 2.8
boost levels needed to hit the mark will come down as engine displacement increases so figure a 3.1 will need around 12 psi and a 3.4 will need around 9/10 psi

with a real foward facing header setup u would look at around 12 psi for a 2.8, 10 psi for a 3.1 and around 8 psi for a 3.4

as for the turbo a t3/t4 50 trim with a .63 ex housing works well for autos for manual cars i recomend a t3/t4 50 trim with a .8x ex housing

the same turbos with a 57trim compressor side also wok extreamly well


2.5 inch cold side plumbing from the turbo to the intercooler and tb is more then enough




251-400rwhp

stock shortblocks are ok here but i would deff rebuild the shortblock
a few key parts to change here
if ur going to use stock pistions its fine,but use plasma moly, or moly rings, cast iron rings are no good.

main and rod bearings, use hi quality bearings in the bottom of the motor,
for the main and rod bearings u want to run them 1-2 thousandths over stock specs

cam selection
252 or 260 grind will work here but there are far better options if u go custom
a reverse split cam will make more power and keep rpms down, no need to go really large here
something in the 260/252 on 114 lsa or 268/260 on 116 lsa will work great

now the reason for going reverse split is that u dont want the ex valve open as long due to the backpresure in the ex system,

whatever cam u pick u will need the matching valve springs ur cam manufacturer can recomend the right springs for ur cam

Turbo hotside

under k style will get u into this range but i don recomend it
log style on the passenger side with a mid lenght header on the driver side works very well
3 inch downpipe is best but a 2.5 inch can get u to the 325/350 rwhp area depending on the rest of the ex system

btw flowmaster or any other chambered mufflers are no good for turbocharged applications

cold side plumbing

a 2.5 inch coldside will support the power levels but i recomend going to 3 inch

heads

a good set of gasket matched and ported heads with a valve job will do the trick

intake
u deff want to gasket match the intake and do some cleanup on the upper and mid sections
on the lower section u need to clean up were the injector bosses stick down into the runner, if not u get very turbulent airflow at the entry to the cyl head

turbo selection

skip the t3/t4 50/57 trim hybrids
go right for a gt35 or a 60-1 turbo if using t3 hotsides go for the .8x housings
if they are full t4 housings a .58 housing will be a great place to start

expect to need about 12 psi from a gt35 or 60-1 to make about 350 rwhp and around 480 ftlbs


ecu

the stock ecu will not cut it not in factory form u deff need to tune it here
or u can go aftermarket megasquirt works very well and is fairly cheap and can be had in a plug and play configuration

which ever u choose is upto u, u will have to do ur own research and see which way u want to go


fuel system

stock fuel pump needs to go, deff look into a walboro 255lph pump
the stock regulator will work but id go aftermarket to get some adjustability
stock fuel lines will work just fine
depending on the upper limit of what ur aiming for u will need between 36 to 48 # injectors

ok thats it for now next post i will cover the 400+ combination and gets some prices together for each combination

Fallen2603

AWESOME THREAD!!
I think someone should sticky this!

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Great stuff. I've seen a lot of it around, but it is good to have it all in one thread.
I'm looking for the bare bones setup.
Ebay or junkyard turbo?
What kind of car stock has the right size tubo? Intercooler?
Injectors? I *think* Cobras had 36 lb/hr.
Minimum new gauges, so just boost and fuel, or...?
Would 200 rwhp require tuning, or would stock programming with 93 octane be a safe bet?

Thanks for the knowledge Dave.

project89

iTrader: (1)

ebay for the turbo for the price of a new knockoff t3/t4 hybrid u cant beat it, the most u will fill find in junkyards is t3 sized and smaller , though u might get lucky and score a t4 turbo that u can take the cold side off ofand put on a t3 hotside but for 125$ shipped from ebay for the hybrid why bother

volvo 740 has a very nice intercooler but if u cant get one cheaper then 50 bucks dont bother, ebay again a 2.6 inch thich bar and plate intercooler with a tubbing kit and couplers clamps will run about 125=175 shipped

try southbay for a set of injectors or u can get the cobra injectors fro a junkyard etc the turbo forums has a list of what cars came with what sized injectors maybe i can go get some info from that and post it here

for 200 rwhp u dont need 36 pound injectors though 24 pound injectors will work u just need to bump up the fuel presure slightly 3-5/ psi

boost/vac quage and a wideband for sure if u have a stick car i suggest a shift light redline comes up fast when ur in boost

speed density ecm no way u must tune it for any boost

2.8 maf ecu u can get away with 200whp but heres the problem with anything over 21# injector the car will run so rish with the stock tune

so at minimum u would ahave to have a chip burnt to change the injector size in the ecm

or another option would be a megasquirt 1 v2.2 in piggy back mode
this requires an extra coolant temp sensor to be added and also a second iat sensor or u can go full standalone with the same ms ecu as well, they do make plug and play bo0ards now for gm ecus so u wouldnt even have to wire up the system urself


im going to try to add more to this post tonight but i started a new job today and im friggen sore lol i cut/split and stacked 6 cords of wood today god dam was that a bitch

Shiv515

iTrader: (2)

Wow two awesome threads in just a week. Thanks so much for his project! This needs to be a sticky as well. Oh and remind me to visit you when I'm ready to turbo out my soon to be 3.4(then hybrid).

project89

iTrader: (1)

400 + rwhp

stock shortblock = u could but ur just asking for problems

forged pistons for sure,use plasma moly, or moly rings,
main and rod bearings, use hi quality bearings in the bottom of the motor,
for the main and rod bearings u want to run them 2-3 thousandths over stock specs(loose)

arp rod/mains for sure

oil pump
u will want to take apart the pump housing and shim the oil presure relief valve with 3 "an" washers, be aware that ur stock oil presure gauge will not work once u ocme off idle the gauge will peg itself

expect around 60 psi oil presure at idle and 105-120 psi at redline

cam selection
solid roller should be used here but a hyd roller will work with some lifter mods
260 grind will work here but its far from a good cam choice
custom reverse split cams are key here 276-286 duration on the intake side with 8-10* less on the ex side lift should be in the neiborhood of .525 to .575 on both intake and ex, 116 lsa

now with these cams u will be spinning the motor to 8-8,500 rpms so for valve springs ur going to need something in the nieborhood of 140# seat presure and 325#+ open
ur cam manufacturer can make a better recomendation on sprinsg for whatever cam u go with though



Turbo hotside

under k style = no way
log style on the passenger side with a mid lenght header on the driver side will work
but a better setup would be to build a set if foward facing headers and run the crossover infront of the engine 1 5/8's primarys to 2.5 inch collectors with 2.5 inch merge pipes to the t4 turbo flange
3 inch downpipe is ok, but id go with atleast a 3.5 and depending on the turbo u pick u may need 4 inch

btw flowmaster or any other chambered mufflers are no good for turbocharged applications

cold side plumbing

3 inch tubbing, and a supporting intercooler

heads

gasket matched,valve deshrouding ,lots of work in the port entrance around the vane cast in the floor and a ton of work in the valve guide area is required here

have the heads milled down enough to bring the compression upto 9.5-1 - 10.0-1 ,
do not use the .060 compressed fwd head gaskets use the .040's

intake
u deff want to gasket match the intake and do some cleanup on the upper and mid sections
on the lower section u need to clean up were the injector bosses stick down into the runner, if not u get very turbulent airflow at the entry to the cyl head

u deff may want to look into a custom upper plenum which can easily be built



turbo selection

go right for a t4 t66, t4 t70, even a t4 based t76





ecu

tune the stocker,megasquirt,fast,bs3

which ever u choose is upto u, u will have to do ur own research and see which way u want to go


fuel system

stock fuel pump needs to go, deff look into a walboro 255lph pump
at this level ive already upgraded to an aftermarket regulator "an" lines and dual walboros
i would deff atleast go for the dual intank walboros

ur going to need 50# + injectors for this range

methanol injection is deffinatly recomended
as is an ignition box like an msd 6al

auto cars will need a converter in the 4500 rpm range
tci is the only company i know of off hand that has an off the shelf converter for the v6 700 27 spline 9.5 or 10 inch converter cant rember the size off the top of my head, though u will have to have them restall it as i belive off the shelf its a 3k stall
and its not cheap 550$ last time i ordered one



ok now im going to cover some other parts

meth injection

not needed for the 200-250 rwhp range but it wont hurt and adds a saftey blanket to the whole combo

rear gears

numerically low is good

numerically higher gears dont load the motor as much so spool time is increased,and also the more load u put on a turbo motor the more power it will make

since most of the v6 cars came with 3.42's most are set the 3:42 is a great gear for a turbo build.though a 3:73 gear is also good for those only shooting for lower hp numbers i.e 200-250 whp.

with that said i ran 4:10 rear gears to the bottom of the 12's, they worked but deff slowed the car down, just by swaping back to 3:42's should put me into the 11's with no oher changes

drive shaft

if u installed an aluminum one swap it back out for a steel piece the aluminum one will break

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Forgot all about this thread dave. Its a Great one. Should be sticked or linked to the trubo builds for more info.

Cadaver Puncher

iTrader: (1)

This NEEDS to be a sticky!!!!!!

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Cavypuncher I love the sig man. Thats too funny!!

I do have to add to the 251-400hp area. Its definitly possible with the under k member design like dave said. But he is DEFINITLY right on the downpiping size and exhaust restrictions. I noticed a large gain up top just from running open exhaust on my set up. About 3 feet after the turbo and that was is. The stock center piping and mufflers are just not needed if you dont have emisions issues in your state. If your on a budget like I was and want the easiest power, its best to just simplifly things IMO. Such as the exhaust...if you dont want to size the stuff just dont use it. You'd be surprised on how much the turbo quiets the sound down.

For about 4 months before i started to really push my engine I bet I was at the 300 crank HP area and never had a issue. While it was cheep to build and maintain, boost is addictive as can be and so what the speed. But it is amazing that any engine really can see such a huge gain.

Main point I want to make is it should definitly should be a sticky!!! I have said it before..... project89/12secDave's threads are the best information there is for turboing our specific cars and are great guides.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Some questions for possibly future turbo build.

I have a 1.15AR hot side and a .60 AR cold side turbo. Exhaust side too big for these motors?

I'd be looking for 250-400 RWHP, I could get custom manifolds made, should I go with that?

How would I go about to make that kind of set-up good for daily use? I'm thinking Megasquirt for ECM.

Fallen2603

I think a 1.15 A/R hot-side would take FOREVER to spool up. Something between 0.63 and 0.84 would probably work for the hot-side A/R and still be "streetable."

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah that thing wouldnt spool untill the top of 2nd gear or 3rdgear

if its the turbo i think it is its t04e compressor with the massive hotside , u should be able to swap a smaller .63/8x housing right onto it

if it has a dfivided housing u could block off one side of the turbine housing and it would make it into a .55 ar housing

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

I got it for basically free, so I'm not sure what it is, but it is a 60mm. If figured the hot side was way too big. I've got a picture of it.

project89

iTrader: (1)

that is a bad *** turbo and i know just what it is

well its either one of 2 turbos assuming its a garrett

to4e-60 trim
or a 60-1 compressor
can u take a pic of the wheel?

u need to get anew housing for that turbo and use it

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

God man.... a 1.15ar on the hot side?? Wow thats way too big. I had a .63 on my previous t 3/4 and it worked well i though for streatable spool up.


Edit: just now saw the pics. That thing is visibly oppisite of what i have now(comp/turb sizes)

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Will do Friday. Its at my buddies shop.
I thought it was too big. It WAS supposed to go on my 74 260Z, but that project never happened.

project89

iTrader: (1)

get some pics for sure, u could run it as is if u blocked off one side of the turbine ho9using if it has a divided housing, if not and it has the right sized turbine wheel u can buy a .63 housing for 30-50 bucks

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Its all one housing, the bottom seems to be a T3/T4 flange though.

project89

iTrader: (1)

its a hybrid that much i know for sure , t3 hotside with a t4 coldside

it does apear to be an china/ebay turbo, few lil things on the turbo give that away.

so if it has the larger comprssor wheel it will be worth spending a lil mooney and buying the smaller housing , or u could hit it with a lil nitrous to make it spool

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

I doubt its a eBay turbo, my buddies don't buy eBay ****. But I haven't found any markings on it, but I never inspected it closely.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i can tell u right off the bat the oil feed adapter on it is ebay, the cpompressor housing looks alot like the ebay units as well

if its a garrett , there will be a tag on the compressor backing plate that is rivitetd to it

project89

iTrader: (1)

heres one

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

I'll check it Friday. I don't know where it came from, so it might be eBay or not. I really don't care, as long as it works.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Dont always dismiss a ebay turbo. Granted I only had one but beat the **** out of it and never had a problem with the thing.

mars061

You forgot to add a 500+ HP section for the folks that would like to run 10's or 11's...

Let me see here :

-stock 3500V6 LX9 FWD engine. (roller valvetrain, better oiling, forged steel crank, WAY WAY better heads, better cooling, engine itself is lighter.)

The stock valvesprings are weak so replace them with PAC or COMP units, and go make some power.

No gaskets, no aftermarket bolts/studs ect required, keep the motor stock, run good oil keep it under 7500.

Stock FWD 3500 manifolds can be used for a turbo setup and are 100% bulletproof.

Only downfall is you'll need custom mounts and a notch in the oil pan.

I think it's a good option...

project89

iTrader: (1)

it is a good option i will say my parts list are overkill, but i took into account ppl new to turbos trying to build these, so i wanted to give a parts list that would build an engine that is hard to kill for a novice

now given one of us with alot of turbo/tuning experiance we could do the same without the exspensive forged parts and studs etc

mars has anyone looked into getting the rod bearings pinned in the 3500 yet? i do recall there being an issue of rod bearings spinning in that engine with excessive rpm or extended high rpm use

pinning the bearings i feel can cure this minor issue

mars061

Not sure if anyone has.

I've never had an issue with it yet. I think Dave had a problem with that once. not sure if it happened more than once though.

Alot of ppl pull the 8mm rocker studs out of the heads on a 3X00 but that can be improper torquing...

Overall pretty tough motors.

Fallen2603

How much power you at Mars061? The stock 3500 rods and pistons will handle that much power?!

Hmmm...Chevelle might get a 3400 or 3500 and a turbo.

mars061

Cheezy online HP calculator :

ET calc :

Your HP is 458.72 computed from your vehicle weight of 3200 pounds and ET of 11.13 seconds.

OR using MPH :

Your Horsepower computed from your vehicle weight of 3200 pounds and MPH of 131 is 591.26.

So somewhere between 458 and 591. LMAO.

project89

iTrader: (1)

mars more then likley is at around 425whp hp calculators are kinda funky when it comes to turbo cars as they were designed around n/a engines

Fallen2603

LMAO! That's awfully consistent...

I'm just shocked the stock rods and pistons will take that much abuse. Do you daily drive the car, or is it just a track toy?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That's pretty much narrowing it down...

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Its a 11 sec car so that just amazing as is!!!

Those calculators go off of trap mph and weight for the most part so they can be inaccurate i think, depending on what calc you used.

Id trust the et vs. weight more then the mph vs. weight just because its a turboed car and will trap higher then a N/A car..imo

mars061

I drive the car enough, but usually around 6 psi on the street.

Occasionally when I need the power I'll turn the EBC on and giver.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Heres what a calc told me that I use. 3260lbs vs. 104.7mph trap speed vs 13.31 speed=282.4Hp

Im not sure what calculation it uses but it allows you to add all 3 values to the mix.

Mars, on that slip you linked adding in the trap speed and Mph, and just reusing my weight i come up with 511.91 Hp. Those numbers make my cars perfomance look like a joke....

mars061

Yeah I'm thinking that the 425WHP / 510 CHP is pretty accurate for my car. Give or take 50.

What does your car run in the 1/4 ? ^

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

13.50's-13.30s

Heres one vid mars. Wasent sure if youve seen it before. But Ive seen your vids. There nice man, very.

project89

iTrader: (1)

heres what mine says
You are making : 381HP at the rear wheels and 414HP at the flywheel*
*Note: Assuming a 20% drive train loss

thats for mph
and on et
You are making : 309HP at the rear wheels and 335HP at the flywheel*


i dont even trust the dyno as the dyno said
270rwhp and 370rwftlbs when we dynoed the car

sorry but 270rwhp will not run 12's in a almost 3500 pound car

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Oh yeah? 12.33@106 Firebird, 275whp...


Pure stock class rules, no headers, cam and valve train modifications only...

http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums...rt-vs-Domestic

34blazer

he's got some gear in that thing, damn

project89

iTrader: (1)

i know for afact 275hp @3500 pounds wont run low 12's i took my car to the track after the dyno and ran it with no changes car went 12.9 -13.1's all day

it wasnt till i fixed the ignition and picked up a bunch of power till it ran low 12's

mars061

I want that guys torque converter. Cool car, damn 90* V6 though.

project89

iTrader: (1)

mars give the jegs converter a shot, i know 2 ppl who use them with th350 one n/a car and one nitrous car and they work great. about 200 bucks a converter


im going to try one of the nitrous converters behind my blown 3.4 if i dont go with a stick

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

Damn i wish i could launch like that.. Even with the 4K stall it feels so slow off the line. Going to try the 2 step again tomorrow, hopefully they let us get some vids at the line.

mars061

Dave what RPM can you set your 2 step to max before it rolls ??

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

I'll find out tomorrow if the weather holds out. I'm going to push it as high as possible on the track.


I set it to 2500 on Thursday and launched the car out of my garage, spent an hour getting rid of the black marks with the power washer.

project89

iTrader: (1)

does ur converter go right to 4k soon as u let go of the footbrake/2step?

mars061

Yeah I can get my 2 step to hold at 2500, but not at 2600. lol

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

I was foot braking it the last time at the track, according to the datalogs i hit 3400 RPM before the car started rolling, less than 1/2 sec after it hit 4K. This converter is pretty loose, it'll flash to 4500 on the street.

The logs show it's hitting ~4600 after the 7K shifts, finishing off in 3rd at about 5500.