V6Discussion and questions about the base carbureted or MPFI V6's and the rare SFI Turbo V6.
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Im getting my enigine rebuilt for graduation.
My question is:
1. How much for a rebuilt for NOS
2. Price to install Cam and 1.6RR
3. Heads Port & Poilish W/ Valve Job
4. Engine Bored
5. And intake ported and gasket matched
6. Possibly some throttle body work
Im just getting some info from you guys then decided on what to do first. I think i should do the cam, RR, Bore first. Then later on this summer get the heads done with intake. I want to do this because i rather have a V6 because its different.
I have looked in this area and found nothing so im going to rebuild my 3.1 i just got done calling all the junkyards. Lots of 2.8's no 3.4's. Anyone else have any other info?
I see lots of people here from your neck of the woods.
Jersey, New York, PA & VA.
I used to live back by Philly & go to DC for school (college).
They got engines, there, too.
You are not that far away from them!
Put out the word.
Spend the effort right.
------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA
Karl,
if the boy wants to rebuild his 3.1, let him rebuild his 3.1! anywhoot. I'm not sure on prices for a rebuild, i had a new 2.8L/3.0L after the bore over dropped into my 85 bird, it's a pretty decent ride. Most times i do believe that boring the motor over will be included in the rebuild, just so everything is matched properly, as far instilation of the performance parts it shouldn't cost that much, being that the motor will be disassembled anyway, most likely they won't charge much for labor. When i had my tranny rebuilt about a month ago, the guy through in a Vette servo, and shift kit with no extra charge for labor because he was going to have to do it anyway. So, my advice, is just buy the parts, and ask the guy to install them.
p.s.
are u graduating from high school are college, i just graduated from high school yesterday, now on to the fascinating world of college
------------------
the 85 firebird, the first firebird that doesn't burn out....
It eats the pavement!!!
KILL LIST: (SHORT BUT GROWING)
Dodge Daytona (think a 2.2),Honda Acorda (2.0L),2000 Camaro (3.8L),1992 Mustang (V6),1987 Firebird (2.8L),80's probe (4 banin'),90's malibu,90's 4 door Saturn, (wow, that was a slow ride, even slower than me.),91 Celica GT conv.,Acura Integra, 5speed DOHC 4 cylinder. * 86-90 Pontiac T/A, 305ci. (might not have been running well, but i'll count it anyway.), mid 90's Ford Mustang GT 4.6L tags. (beat him in a turning contest), 3rd gen RS camaro( beat him by more than 2 cars), Celica GT (this guy was a crazy racer)
---came close----
1979 camaro (5.7),1981 camaro (5.7),1982 firebird (5.0) my tires spun, I coulda beat em!!! ,79 El Camino (350, lost by a door),96' Mustang, 3.8L stickshift. (caught him after my car downshifted.)
Most machine shops will charge anywhere from 8 to 10 for each hole.The piston size shouldn't affect the price of a rebuild kit.Well...in most places anyway.
As for the cam install and rockers...that would be mostly up to you.If you have someone rebuild the engine for you it would be included in the cost.
Just to give ya an idea....when I/we rebuilt my engine,here is what it cost me...
clean engine block---$30
install cam bearings-$15
press rods on .030 pistons--$20
bore block---$60
clean/install valve seals on heads--$20/
$25
rebuild kit---$380.The actual cost was like $650 but fortunatly for me a friend worked there at the time.I got it at his cost.
$300 to have someone pull the engine,disassemble,rebuild and install engine.
coolent,oil,plugs,cap/rotor,upper and lower radiator hoses,trans cooler,shift kit and roller tip rockers---$259
Total of $1089.After everytnig was done it was clost to $1200.
I didn't include things like new hose clamps,paint for the engine,the $40 I wasted on that ****ty stainless steel hose dress up crap,heater control valve,coolent sensor(on head),coolent sensor(on intake)and degreaser for the engine bay and frame.
You should do the porting and polishing yourself or have a friend do it for ya.I don't know of any machine shops who would do that.Besides a speed shop.Then your gona pay big bucks.
------------------ Kevin S
89 RS w/2.9
modded some but not heavily
"He knows he's not supposed to say those words, so what
he'll do is he'll come up with a creative way not to say
those words. It becomes a creative game."
- Record producer Jimmy Jam, explaining that when his son
wants to sing along with songs that contain foul language,
he encourages the boy to come up with alternate, clean
words, after carefully listening to the foul words first,
of course.
[This message has been edited by Kevin S (edited May 22, 2001).]
Kevin, thanks for the prices!! On that $30 block cleaning price, was that a hot tank job, or did they also magnaflux the block?
What was in that rebuild kit if the actual cost was $650?? Was it the normal rod & main bearings, pistons, rings, timing chain, & freeze plug kit? I was told to buy my rebuild kit from the place that does the machine work, because they'd "care more" about their machine work... but I'm not spending $650. (I have no machine shop friends, hehe)
Naw,that was just a hot tank cleaning.Atleast I don't think they did a magnaflux on the block
The kit was complete save for the rods and crank.
all gaskets
all bearings-.010 over except cam bearings
pistons/rings-.030 over
oil pump assembly
cam/lifters
freeze plugs
timing set
I feel like I'm forgetting something.
I still can't figure out why it would cost so much.You'd think since it has smaller and less parts then a v8 it would be somewhat cheaper Maybe it's a NAPA thing?
I found at http://www.Northernautoparts.com have the kits for far less then $650.$314 Is what they have listed now.That's where I got the Accel ignition module,roller tip rockers,shift kit and the trany cooler.They have some really good prices.And decent delivery.
BTW,I forgot to mention it cost me $75 to have the crank turned .010
------------------ Kevin S
89 RS w/2.9
modded some but not heavily
"He knows he's not supposed to say those words, so what
he'll do is he'll come up with a creative way not to say
those words. It becomes a creative game."
- Record producer Jimmy Jam, explaining that when his son
wants to sing along with songs that contain foul language,
he encourages the boy to come up with alternate, clean
words, after carefully listening to the foul words first,
of course.
[This message has been edited by Kevin S (edited May 22, 2001).]
I AGREE if ya really wanna spend it on machining & parts and and and
BUT.......
IF ya put out that much effort for prices,
Phoning around, or asking others for locations of a running 3.4 long block, that I've heard others getting for as low as under $500 (and I paid $800) and the results are just as positive, if not better. I sold the left over parts for a bit over $100. That helped cover the cost of the gasket set and the few odds and ends.
I'm saying, do the math.
Simple economics.
So far, seeing the above costs, rebuilding that smaller engine costs twice as much as what I paid for a larger, seasoned engine, that worked, as soon as I turned the key.
I'm trying to bring back to life my 2.8 in my S-10 Blazer. I'm using left over parts from the ruined 2.8 MPFI from the Firebird. I also need a trans. I'd rather spend the money on a trans, instead of the Cam ($50), lifters ($35), and timing chain ($35), that I heard I could get for less. For those prices, I get a trans rebuild kit (or towards a rebuild kit) or a working 700R4 tranny. That's my simple math.
When I do rebuild this engine, I'm getting a running 3.4 block, for about $800 or the more milage, lower priced ones.
I'll bet you could get a good running 3.1 for about $300 and slip that in, just to keep going.
A wrecking yard engine is a dime a dozen, compared to the machining costs of these V-6 engines.
What we are having fun with (a little V-6), working on, IS NOT a Corvette L-88, nor a Chevelle LS-6, or a Cuda HEMI, or even a Supercharged Studebaker Avanti R-3 (289 with a Paxton Supercharger, fastest production car, 1963-Bonneville Salt Flats)! Those engines are worth the machining costs and associated effort.
Ask anyone else, having done the 2.8 - 3.4 swap, if it was worth the effort compared to rebuilding the original block.
NEW 3.4 engines from GM parts counter go for about $1400-$1600 w/a 12,000 mile warranty.
I seem to recall some one, here, whose Dad works at a Chevy Dealership, happens to live in Maryland, that may BE ABLE toget you a deal.
------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA
[This message has been edited by KED85 (edited May 22, 2001).]
ok thanks alot guys. ill see if i can find a good shop to rebuild it. Ok i foun the kit is fed mogul any good? i want to be able to run NOS on this motor. Im defintly getting it bored and the cam w/rr at the time of the rebuild. Anything else i should do while its out. Im going to order MSD ingition box soon. Im also going to find a 3.73 posi unit to drop in. Oh forgot to ask. What size on the oil pump on the kit. I cant remember also about the "Main" option. What is a good size? .030?
hmmm. i sure hope you arent doing any of the work. you just might learn something.
the main size isnt an option...its a measurement that needs specified.
say your crank is 10 under then you need 10 over bearings.
if the mains are 30 under you get 30 over mains.
like your pistons...
you bore a cylinder over 30 you(which removes .030 from the cylinder wall)you need to get larger pistons. .030 over to make up for the removed area.
or thats how i understand it. feel free to correct me.
My mechaninc said he would reuild mine When it Went for 1600 with up to a 100,000 mile warreny for around 1600. It look slike i might be there soon too. I want to kep he origional block so later inlife if i still have my car an they are colectors items it will have matching numbrs.
I guess it is a NAPA thing... I saw rebuild kits in the PAW catalog for that kind of price. I'd actually buy two different kits, a piston kit and a bearing kit. I'd put in a Crane Compucam; so I wouldn't need the stock cam that comes in the "master" rebuild kit.
GM also makes that high-pressure spring to go into the 2.8 oil pump... altho I think I'd just get a high-pressure (or high-flow? Maybe a high flow'd be better..) pump as part of the kit instead of play with springs & shims & etc.
$75 to turn the crank.. ouch. I think Northern Auto sells a "rebuilt" 2.8 crank for only $50... of course that thing could be turned 0.30 under, who knows!
I think the absolute "least" I'd buy from the machine shop would be pistons & rings... they could fit the pistons/rings to the cylinders & press them on the rods. Then I could just do the rod & main bearings myself. I still need to buy a telescoping gauge & micrometer gauge to do that, though. Of course if it comes down to it, I'll just use Plastigage.
You bring them the parts & they do the work to make the parts fit.
Northern has a great price on kits.
800-831-0884
It's all Fed Mogul
If you are PLANNING on running NOS - TELL EVERYONE, so your parts are specific to that NOS usage.
That detail makes a difference.
The best oil pumps are used in the S-10 2.8 blocks. Mine, after 211,500 miles, still puts out 40-80 PSI.
Get a NEW one. Tolerences wear down.
------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA
Well, a couple guys have told me to buy the kit from the machine shop. Reason is, the machine shop will care more about the engine work since they know they're making extra money off of me. Makes sense...
Lemme just ask a question since we're talkin about boreing.... If you bore the 2.8 over .030 then it becomes a 3.1 right? So, does that mean u cant bore a 3.1 block anymore?
When you bore a 2.8 .030 over you only gain about 3 cubic inches.That roughly makes it a 2.9
173 to a 176ci after a .030 bore.
------------------ Kevin S
89 RS w/2.9
modded some but not heavily
"I am just as enthusiastic about flying saucers as I always
was, but the problem is that we are in the middle of a
long, long trough. There's only so many times you can pick
over old bones. There just aren't enough new sightings. It
is not like being a philatelist - there is always something
new to say about stamps."
- Denis Plunkett, 70, a retired civil servant from Bristol
who founded the British Flying Saucer Bureau, which has
suspended its activities because of an apparent sharp
decline in the number of alien visitors to Earth.
Nos is a trick monster how mush do you wanna run? i will assume under 90hp levels.
Cam install depends on the shop, most charge 50/hour. To do the cam your looking at about 5 to 7 hours work they will charge.
Cam prices are 59 to 159 depending on what ya wanna get.
Rockers run 200 to 359 depending on what you wanna get - NON roller rockes are alot cheaper.
Heads - generally you can get em done for about 300 to 450.00 Personally i would buy race preped heads form GM. They are ready to rock and about 350 a pop i think....
Engine boring runs about 15 to 20 per hole. DO NOT forget to get the block hot tanked, sonic checked, new freezeplugs and honed!!!!
Also get the oil valley painted - it aids if the oil return process.
Not sure on this one - i did it myself - very easy and fun. BE SURE to read up in it or you WILL destroy yer intake - or atleast the bottom piece.
TB - most fiero shops will rework you TB for 200 to 300 bucks. GREAT investment!!!
What i suggest is collecting the stuff FIRST... get it all lined up and then do it... infact get a old block and have it preped the week before you pull the old block. DO NOT piecemeal a engine together that you have to openup and close, open up and close... it will develope leaks - will never tune right and is a major PITA
sorry for keep asking stupid questions. But are these it i found Pro Magnum 1.6RR 3/8 stud? I want the best to but in. I want it to be a sleeper. And I still have to find a 3.73 Posi rear. It will so much cheaper to find one then to make my posi but buying parts. And im looking into getting a full 3in exhaust also.
Oh im graduating High School. Full time summer job to support my addiction to this car.
PimpRide92, it might not be cheaper to find the 3.73/posi axle.
I swapped a 3.73/posi/disc axle into my car last September (2000). The axle cost me $150 from the junkyard.
Then, I rebuilt the axle with: new axleshaft bearings (commonly mis-named "rear wheel bearings), axleshaft seals, painted with POR-15, diff fluid, posi additive, rear cover gasket. I rebuilt the axle's brakes (I rebuilt one caliper, the other was toast so I had to buy a pre-rebuilt one, had to make a steel brake line, new caliper mounting bolts & slides). Then, I installed the axle (free) and hooked up the brakes (J65 master cyl, J65 prop valve, new rear brake hoses, tons of brake fluid).
Final cost, with axle price & rebuild price: $600. For $600, I could've bought a 3.73 gearset for $200, a used posi for $75, and had someone install the two for $200. Of course, I got to brag about doing it myself, and got rear disc brakes out of the deal, but it's something to think about.
Oh, and that's a "close" part #, it'll probaby work, but our heads need rocker arms that use a 10mm stud. As you know, 3/8" is pretty damn close to 10mm.
14054884 heads.
Same as 3.4, CAST IRON
Cam 12364059, the 3.4 cam kit (includes lifters)
int. 204, exh. 216, lift int. 427, exh. 454, lobe center 112
or the 3.4 engine with 160 HP & 200 Foot Pound of torque
12363230
OR FOR REAL FUN!!!
10051141 The Aluminum Bow Tie 60* V-6 Block. 47 pounds lighter. Can only be made into a 3.1 block, tho. Not enough meat to bore it up to required 3.62 or the required 3.31 stroke of a 3.4.
Max aluminum bore is 3.582 & stroke max is 3.2
One other BIG setail, MAKE SURE YOUR DESIRE RR will FIT under the valve covers and the induction system.
I do not believe they will. You'll need taller covers.
Go with the Comp Cam roller tips of 1.6, or to be real sure, the roller tip 1.52. These fit under stock covers & induction system.
------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA
[This message has been edited by KED85 (edited May 24, 2001).]
I call the machine shop today and they said that i will need to pull the engine. So i have to talk to my dad about that. Luckly i have freinds with all the tool and space to help me. But im also think of getting an older IROC also. Depends if i can find one for a good price. How long do you think they would take to rebuild it? With all the above engine mods?
It took me and my friend a weekend to pull a broken 2.8 and install a "good for a while" 2.8.
But for the rebuild, I'd say 1-2 weeks of working "after work/school". The machine shop takes up a lot of time, too.. don't forget to account for that. Plus you want to be careful... unless someone's an absolute pro, there's no way they could do an engine rebuild "the right way" (note: not just doing a re-ring or changing a bearing) in a weekend.
My buddy, a machinist, can easily do that.
BUT, YOU"LL PAY DEARLY FOR THAT TALENT!
Based on many others tales, it will take awhile, and possibly longer.
Get ALL your timelines, written down and signed by him.
That will help, your side!
See if 50% down, helps the timeline.
------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA
anywhoot. I'm not sure on prices for a rebuild, i had a new 2.8L/3.0L after the bore over dropped into my 85 bird, it's a pretty decent ride. Most times i do believe that boring the motor over will be included in the rebuild, just so everything is matched properly, as far instilation of the performance parts it shouldn't cost that much, being that the motor will be disassembled anyway, most likely they won't charge much for labor. When i had my tranny rebuilt about a month ago, the guy through in a Vette servo, and shift kit with no extra charge for labor because he was going to have to do it anyway. So, my advice, is just buy the parts, and ask the guy to install them.
,79 El Camino (350, lost by a door),96' Mustang, 3.8L stickshift. (caught him after my car downshifted.) 
