beleneagle

Hi guys, I've got a 82 Camaro with a 2.8 and turbo 200C. I might have access to a 94 3.8 FWD motor with low miles. Car was wrecked, so I can get the puter and all the wiring. I can weld up mounts if need be, but I'm wondering if this is going to be a can of worms. I have a re-rung 305 on the stand that needs finished, but I like different and was thinking that the 3.8 would make a nice daily driver. I'm a cancer patient and can't be dumping a ton of cash at this thing. The tranny in it now needs some work, but I have a buddy that does all my tranny work for me for a little over parts cost. I don't want to get it built if I'm going to be swaping it out in the near future. I'm open to your input, just remember this has to be be done on the cheap because when I get my chemo treatment it's a 80 mile round trip. It will be a daily driver not a 1/4 mile car. I look forward to your replies.


Thanks

David

ex-x-fire

The intake is facing the wrong way, turning it around will probably interfere w/ the serp. belt system.
Do a search on here, I think this has been discussed alot.

Fallen2603

David,

To take care of the possible issue brought up, above, just get the intake-manifold from a '96-'02 Camaro/Firebird that came with a 3800 V6. Your mounts will most likely have to be custom-made.

beleneagle

In your opinion, would it be cheaper/easier just to use the 2.8 or finish the 305? I'm going to have to build a tranny for the car one way or another. I don't have a turbo 350, but there not hard to find. I know I could go with a 700-R4 as well. I'm aware the if I go with the 700-r4 I need to shorten the driveshaft. Want I'm mainly afraid of is changing out all that wiring to go with injection. Not to mention the fuel pump and or lines. I should mention that the 2.8 runs fine but drinks alot of gas for its size.I was thinking about getting a TBI intake and modifying it accept a 2bbl, and going with a HEI distributor. The 305 needs the heads done and a cam.Plus it's missing all the little stuff like the oil pump, timing chain, and all the tin work.

ex-x-fire

Junkyard tbi swap sounds like a good idea, the yards around here are littered w/ s10s that have 2.8 tbi, getting a 700r4 is a good idea too.

beleneagle

How hard is it to swap all that wiring/ecm? The hard part stuff is easy, it's all that long flexable stuff that comes in different colors, that runs around the engine bay that scares me!

ex-x-fire

Yeah, wiring can intimidating. You might want to check out this book called JTR swapping chevy fuel injection. It covers both tbi & port injection.
Or you can look into a new harness from painless, the tbi versions are pretty universal. Call them & see if it'll run on a 2.8.

beleneagle

What years came with the TBI? I know that the S-10's had it, but for some reason I'm thinking the the Firebirds came with TBI a few years. Maybe it was on the V8's.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

AFAIK, it was only V8s and the I4 that had TBI in the F-bodies.

beleneagle

Would a harness off a 4 cylinder work with a S-10 6 cylinder ecu?

ex-x-fire

Probably not, the 4 cyl. harness is set for 1 injector, the 2.8 tbi has 2 injectors.

beleneagle

At this point it's probably just easier to modify that S-10 TBI intake for a 2bbl. I know it's back dating the car, but till I can score a harness with ecu, it's doesn't look like I'll be going to injection anytime soon. Right now my moneys better spent on tranny work. I'd love to go to a T-5, but I really doubt I can the the whole set up for $300. My biggest problem is my darn cancer that really limits what I can do. Otherwise I'd just go pull the needed stuff from the local pull a part. By the way, I'd really like to thank you for your advice!

ex-x-fire

No problem! My mom is fighting the big C word too. Stay strong!

beleneagle

I'm trying 8^) Been at it since Jan. 2000. Any idea what members are getting for change over stuff (From auto to stick, i.e. pedal box, bellhousing, flywheel,slave,etc)? The same buddy that does my tranny work has a later S-10 T-5, but I'm not sure it would work in the Camaro. It has the electric speedo, and I'm pretty sure the car is cable. Is the length the same? Sorry but I'm full of questions!

Fallen2603

I got my whole T5-swap set-up for $150. It is possible, but...I'm not using most of it.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The tail housings are different between S-series and F-body. The difference is shifter location.

beleneagle

I'm checking craiglist to see what's out there over here. I'm very seriously thinking of just building the TH200C and being done with it for now. Then I could try messing with the fuel system to see why it gets 10 mpg! What causes the choke light to stay on? Right now I have it zip tied open. I figure that's why the light(choke being bad, stays on), but wouldn't the light go out with it in the off position? Sorry to change the topic, I just wanted to ask while I have your ear so to speak!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

IIRC, the choke light is on any time there is power to the choke, which I believe is controlled by a thermal switch.

beleneagle

Like a thermal vacuum switch?

Ray the Rat

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure about carbureted F-bodies, but on CCC G-bodies (81-88) the choke light was actually the low oil pressure light. That caused a lotta flat cams.

One thing that would cause problems in this area was disconnecting the wire that runs to the choke coil (bimetal strip coiled up.) Instead of keeping the choke open, as most people assumed, it would keep the choke butterfly closed, therefore the motor would run extremely rich...if at all, once it warmed up a bit.

When I was active on Monte Carlo forums, this question came up so often that I ended up writing up a web page on how to make the choke work with an Edelbrock carb (or any other carb with an electric choke):
http://www.chevyasylum.com/tech/chokwire.html

I'm gonna make the leap of assumption and figger that you're running the stock Dualjet carb (at least I think that's what was stock in 82.) As far as a thermal vacuum switch, no. There's no vacuum involved with a Dualjet's choke.

It it was me, I'd wire the choke correctly (using a switched 12v source as I outline in the web page) and check the oil! I dunno if you have an oil pressure gauge or not, but look into that, for sure.

My opinion on the swap to a 3.8 or a 305 is that it's a toss-up. 305s aren't my favorite motors, but it otta do fine in your case (the small bore limits valve size and as a result, limits performance) and the 200C isn't a very good transmission. I'd go with a TH350 or an overdrive (TH200-4R or TH700R4.) Depending on your rear gear, the TH350 otta work very nicely. You can get one from Summit for $659 complete (ya might have to change the torque converter) which is probably about what someone would charge ya to rebuild the TH200-C. The weak point of that transmission is the lack of a 2nd gear clutch. It uses the reverse band for 2nd gear and that's not very strong. TH350s are, while not bullet-proof, pretty strong, especially in comparison to a 200C.

Good luck with it and feel free to email me with any off-forum questions or comments.

ex-x-fire

Remember that sbc & 2.8ls have different bell housing bolt patterns.
Check for 12 volts at choke wire, make sure the choke pull off works.

beleneagle

Well I just picked up a 105,000 91' 700-R4, crossmember, driveshaft, and torque tube for the Camaro. I'm not planning on building this if I don't have to. Funds are very tight right now. Gotta dig up a speedo gear insert, gear and clip since the 91 is electric. If I remember right the BOP case 350's use the large insert where the Chevy's use the small. Is that right?

The choke pull off is bad and that's way I've got it zip tied open for now.

beleneagle

Will I run into starter location issues with the FWD 3.8 and a 700R4?
Never mind I found out the answer through a search.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Ok, I'm going to attack this from a slightly different standpoint. I've read most of the posts, but its giving me a bit of confusion, so let's start from the top since your car is not in the process of going back together. Yet.

First off, forget that horrible 200C trans. Sell it on eBay or Craigslist. It is a VERY RARE transmission housing, because it has the torque arm mount provision for the F-body. Unfortunately for you it is the absolute least desirable transmission ever put into a Firebird. That means its only worth money to someone who is really in a bind and theirs is broken. This also calls for congratulations for your score on the 1991 Transmission. Maybe.

Is your trans that you just got for a V6? If its not, you can't use it for anything unless you are going to put your 305 in there. The 3800 and your 2.8 both need the V6 variant to work. As far as the speedometer drive, you will need to get the 86 and older (or is it 85?) tailshaft housing and matching drive gear. The wrecking yards should have plenty and there are lots of people in the classified section who sell parts like that too. That will be an easy thing to get done.

Now, if I were you, I would get busy installing that new Trans (if its for a V6) into your car now so that its all done from behind the engine regardless of what your next engine will be. Reason being, when you swap custom engines, you don't want to upset the entire balance of what is going on. Having the transmission and torque arm in the right place ahead of time will help a lot if you need to make custom motor mounts later.

Once the trans is in and holding oil, now get to the engine. I have never seen one of those 2.8 factory carburetors that is worth a damn. Not one. Now is the time to ditch it. I have recommended other people to use a 2.8/3.1 TBI intake from a junkyard, and then redrill the mount pattern for a smaller two barrel carb from a different GM engine. Like the dual jet from the V6's or the even older two-jet. That's just my opinion. If the intake is too tall, you can have the carb mount flange milled off at a machine shop much cheaper than buying some aftermarket intake manifold. I have found the non computer controlled version of your carb before on a 1980 Chevy truck that had a 250 straight six engine. That carb would need to be jetted down some for you, but you have your crap carb to take the jets from to do that. Otherwise, you are swapping to something completely different.

Now for the Buick block question (the original inquiry of the title of this thread):

When you are talking 3800, especially series 2, there are no differences in the block. The 95-2002 F-bodies that ran the 3800 used a front wheel drive short block from the standard 3800 series 2 family. They all use the GM METRIC transmission bolt pattern, the same as your 2.8 V6. The motor mounts will have to be made, but you can get it done. The mount pads on the side of the block will allow you to start with one piece of flat bar steel across those bolt holes, then you adjust a set of normal Buick V6 mounts from an 80's rear drive Buick Regal where they need to go. You will need the frame brackets from a 1978-87 G-body GM car that originally had a Buick V6 in it. Once you bolt your engine to the 700R4 trans, lower the engine down onto the crossmember with all the mounts and frame brackets bolted to the engine only and hanging. Sit the engine down on the crossmember and take some pictures. Then you can decide if you need to slide the motor mounts to the rear or to the front and you can make a final decision where to bolt them to your flat strap that you have on the block now. You can also mark the holes in the crossmember of the car, and then pull the engine back out. You can then drill your holes needed and mount your frame brackets to the car. Its a pain in the butt and it takes time, but its not that bad. I did this years back when I put an Olds 350 in one, and a Buick 350 in another. The Buick V6 fits the same as the Buick 350 down near the oil pan area.

So the blocks are the same. The oil pans are not. You MUST have a rear drive oil pan to fit your car. The old oil pans from the 80's are not the same on the old rear drive V6 3.8 engines. The only ones that will work are either 95-02 F-body, or Australian Holden 3800 cars (which have to be imported.) You might find an aftermarket one, but you said you're on a budget, so here is my budget recommendation.

You need to put the word out that you need a complete 95-02 3800 Camaro/Firebird engine. Ideally you would call all the wrecking yards and find a core engine that is junk because someone blew it up. Its cheaper that way, since you already have a good front drive engine that works. Then you will have the proper oil pan and pickup tube, and front accessory drive brackets (and maybe even the intake manifold) that you need to fit more easily. There is nothing saying you can't run all the front wheel drive stuff if you need to, but you cannot get around this oil pan issue.

You should do some searching on the TurboBuick.com forums, as there are some guys over there with 4th gen 3800 Firebirds that they have adapted the front wheel drive supercharger to. Not that you need a supercharger, but since it is only mounted one way, you can see what they did when they were dealing with ducting the intake to the rear of the manifold and the front accessory drive system. All of those tricks would work on yours, too. There is no law saying that your intake must face the front of the car.

Good luck man!

beleneagle

Thanks KrisW! The 700R4 is out of a 92' 3.1 Camaro. A buddy of mine is going to tear it down and see if it needs anything. It will get a seal kit if anything. I'd like it to last a good long while. I'm not settled on going with the 3.8 swap as it's a 94' fwd motor, that would be coming out of a wrecked Buick. It has a little over 95,000 on it, and was well maintained. Right now I'm thinking that it would be cheaper/easier to get a 3.4 out of a 93'-95' F-body and build it. I really would like to keep the car carbureted and while it would be neat to make a custom intake manifold for the Buick, I'm just not sure I want to go to all that trouble.



David

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Yes, a newer 60*V6 is certainly the easiest. If you are on a real hard budget and have more time than money, you have a few more options as well:

The front drive Buick V6 engines prior to 1987 (I think about 1981-87) use the same METRIC GM bellhousing bolt pattern as your 2.8, and all the later 3300 and 3800 engines. They come in 3.0 and 3.8 liters mostly. These engines uses heads that accept rear drive 3.8 carburetor intakes and they use distributors (Big Cap HEI style) so they are very easy to adapt to rear drive.

The 3.8 variants will accept the rear drive oil pan too. So then, all you have to make are motor mounts, which you can use from a 1978-87 G body and just re-fit the lower frame brackets to your frame.

This is the block that I am looking at using because I think its the best Buick block to easily replace my 2.8 engine.

Good luck, either way!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Also, if you get a low mile 60*V6 that is rear drive, ANY 87-up 2.8/3.1/3.4 from an S-10/S-15, Isuzu Trooper (3.1 w/TBI), or Camaro/Firebird will vastly improve what you have. I would not be scared of any of these engines that are under 100k miles. Your car will not know how to act!

Good luck, man!

beleneagle

Thanks again Kris, we'll see how this works out. Tomorrow if the weather is warm enough, I'll start rebuilding the front end. Went to the local u pull it last week, and scored everything I needed to re-do the front end. Got some very tight tie rods and idler arm from one Bird, and the steering box and centerlink from another Bird. Got them all cleaned up and painted a nice shiny black, ready to go on their future user! It will be nice not having to "Saw the wheel" anymore!

92camarorv6

hay i have a ? im about to do the a 3.8 but i want to run a blower off a gtp just cuse i want blower you saying even the newer 3800 will fit the 60* v6 tranny ?

beleneagle

Yes, the 3800 is the same bellhousing pattern as the 60 degree V-6. That said unless your using a rwd block, the starter is on the wrong side and there's the oil pan issue as well. Do a search, there's a ton of info out there and not just on this site either.

beleneagle

Well I got the front end done. I didn't realize that the steering box I grabbed was off of a WS6 car. It's the quick ratio box! You turn the wheel a little bit and boy howdy it sure does respond! I think I'm going to need to get one for my 72' Javelin as well!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Keep in mind that you will still need the rear drive oil pan and oil pickup tube for a 95-02 Camaro/Firebird with a 3800 engine.

Fallen2603

Something else to consider, with the supercharger on the 3800 in a RWD configuration, the throttle-body inlet will be in contact with the firewall, if not needing to go through the firewall.

beleneagle

Didn't the later version of the supercharged 3800 use a separate supercharger instead of the one piece blower/intake?

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

The supercharger still has to face rear, because the drive is via belt from the front of the engine.

Here's a link where a guy modified his to fit a 4th gen:

http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/l67-f-bird.352126/

I bet in a 3rd gen there's more room to do something different...

Fallen2603

That should work quite nicely...

92camarorv6

so a fwd block wont fit

beleneagle

You really need to read this whole thread. About half way through, KrisW explains what you need to do to make one fit.