legendaryhero7

Hello everyone, thanks for taking your time to look at this thread. I'm having a hellova time trying to figure out what's going on, and I've been trying all of the suggestions from similar threads, but I just cant seem to figure it out.

the lacking power part and missing on acceleration has been like this for a while now, and I decided to give it a good tuneup (TomP's Major Tuneup) to see if it was just something simple.. short answer: it wasn't.

For the hard start (cold start only, after the engine is started I can start/stop without an issue), it basically takes a good 2 second cranking, let off ignition for a second, and then crank it again, and it'll barely start and sound like it's begging for gas/spark. This only started after I changed from my stock injectors to a new set I got off of ebay. I obviously didn't like that, and found that a couple of them were leaking (and on the resistance test, they were everywhere), so I got another set from southbay (I resistance tested these, and they read roughly around 15.2ohms, is that right?). These don't seem to leak (Pressure stays around 40 for a good hour), but the issue is still happening.

I'm guessing that the lacking power part and missing on acceleration are probably related. Basically, whenever I lay on the pedal a little more than normal, the rpms are usually around 4k+ and it'll miss and take a bit before it'll start to get going.

Any suggestions or ideas would be wonderful. I haven't had any errors thrown, and the only things along with the tuneup that I replaced was an underdrive pulley, performance cat, and a new muffler.

I've also checked for any kind of vacuum leaks (spraying around with carb cleaner), but didn't catch anything.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, my water pump(I think) has been making a really annoying rrrring(Kind of like an electric motor) sound. Is this normal, or is it time to replace the old guy?

willexoIX

When is the last time the timing set was replaced? Have you checked the timing?

legendaryhero7

I couldn't tell you when the whole timing set's been replaced, I know I've never done it, and it's only got 50k miles, so I doubt the people before me did it either.

I set the timing during the tuneup, earlier this summer, and made sure the timing was still accurate about a month after. I'll double check tonight, just to make sure.

legendaryhero7

I checked the timing last night, and it's still set to 10*.

Could it be the injectors that I got from SouthBay? I've took a look around the boards, and it looks like the general resistance of ~12 ohms is right around the dot for most injectors, but the one's I got from SouthBay are all reading at ~15.3 ohms.
I've been told both ways about how much the resistance matters, so I'd love some input if the 3 ohms makes much of a difference.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

The water pump has nothing to do with the engine starting/running but it sounds like it should be replaced. The injectors are almost certainly fine. The Southbay set are good and the resistance is fine. You need to start looking at the other stuff. What else have you done to the engine? Anything else replaced? When you replaced the injectors it would have been a good time to check the fuel pressure regulator. Pull the vacuum line from it and smell for gas in the vac line. If you can smell gas rebuild the regulator. New diaphragm. Check distributor/plugs/wires etc. IAC passages nice and clean? There's more but start with those.

legendaryhero7

Thanks for replying, Base91. That's a good idea about the FPR, I figured it was fine if the fuel pressure was staying put for a good hour, but I'll do what you suggested and see.

I'm also glad you said what you did about the water pump. It's been the most annoying sound for so long. I just thought it was a common sound for these cars(since it's made that sound 6 years back, when I first got the car). Does anyone have any suggestions on the brand of water pumps?

The spark plugs and wires were just replaced this month, and I replaced the distribute cap last year, but I'll take a look at that just to make sure there isn't any corrosion, I'll also check the contact points and arc.

Actually, now that you mention it, two weeks ago I took out the IAC, and boy was that thing dirty (black/sooty), so I cleaned that up quite a bit, and afterwards my car felt like it got quite a bit of power back (I had changed my spark plugs at the same time, so I gave credit to them). Unfortunately that didn't last very long, but I did notice that the passage was really bad (just as black and sooty as the IAC), but I didn't bother with it. Maybe the whole thing needs to be cleaned? Only one way to find out, I'll give it a good cleaning this weekend and see. Any suggestions on how to effectively clean it would be much appreciated.

I'm also going to test out my EGR valve this weekend, I found an article here that seems like a pretty good explanation on how to bench test them. But if anyone has a sure-tell way to test them, let me know.

Thanks for the ideas, everyone. Feel free to voice any more suggestions.. I'll try anything!

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Yes you have to take the throttle body off and open up what you can and spray cleaner through until it's good and clean. Also check the butterfly isn't caked up. It's all fairly sensitive. Also check the inside of the upper plenum. Unfortunately the pcv system sucks oil back into the intake to be burned and if makes a real mess in the intake system. Get everything as clean as you can. Then you could try running Seafoam in the gas for a few tanks. It worked wonders on my engine.

legendaryhero7

Thanks Base91. I also wanted to clarify that the hard start was only happening with a cold start. The second the engine has been started, I can stop it and start it back up without a problem.

legendaryhero7

Alright, I have a bit of good news and bad news.. The good news, power's back! Most of it, at least. I have to thank willexoIX for suggesting to check the timing. When I checked it earlier this week, I had forgotten to disconnect the EST-bypass wire, then I remembered this weekend, and indeed it was retarded down to 6*-ish. Now back up to 10* and it has much more pep!

As for the bad news, the car is harder to start than ever. It took a good 15 seconds of cranking for it to even get started, and then after it started, the idle was surging up and down from 1k to 2k rpms until the engine warmed up, which sounds like some sort of vacuum leak.

I think the surging could be the EGR valve leaking, when the car was running, it sounded like it was opening and closing all of the time (constant clicking noise), and I could feel some warm air coming from the side of it. Would the EGR be responsible for the hard start as well?

As always, any suggestions are welcome, and thanks for everyone's time and assistance!

*EDIT* I forgot to mention that I had changed the distributor cap and rotor, and there was only a very faint amount of smell from the vac line connected to the FPR. Should the smell be stronger to worry about it, or should I go ahead and rebuild it?

willexoIX

Exhaust leaks at the egr can cause misfires, not sure about the hard starting being related to it. Have you cleaned out the IAC passages like was suggested? Another thing that I don't think you mentioned was the ICM(ignition control module). If you dont know if it has been replaced I would have it tested. If you get it tested, have them test it multiple times in a row cause they can test good and still be bad.

The constant clicking sounds more like the IAC valve to me, but the 3.1 has the electronic egr doesn't it? My 2.8 had the vacuum egr so I am unsure about that. If it is the electronic egr than I suppose that can be the chattering you are hearing.

legendaryhero7

Oh yeah sorry, I cleaned the whole throttle body/IAC and plenum really nice.

About the ICM; as I was adjusting the timing and messing around behind the distributor, the engine would sometimes almost stall and bog down to really low rpms, and then get back to normal after a couple of seconds. Could that be indication that the ICM is failing?

willexoIX

Thats what it sounds like. If you grab a new one don't forget to put the paste underneath it.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

ANY gas smell from the FPR vacuum line suggests gas is getting past the diaphragm and then sucked in to the intake when you start the car. I had hard starting too because of it. Totally fine after a new diaphragm. There may still be other issues but if you've done injectors and fpr then at least you don't need to take the plenum off again.

legendaryhero7

Welp, the ICM seems to be in tip-top shape. I had it checked at 3 different places, just to make sure. Maybe I was just hitting a wire the wrong way, when I was messing around back there.

As for the FPR, does anybody know where I can get a decently priced diaphragm? ~$70 seems like a crazy amount, given that it's just a spring with a bit of rubber on top! Or maybe it'd be smarter to put on an aftermarket FPR setup or something? Any suggestions are welcome.

Also, now that the power's back, it reminded me of an issue I've been having with the rear right wheel. Whenever I take off a little harder than normal, there's a thump in the rear. I jacked it up, and with the e-brake on, I can rotate the rear right wheel forward about an inch, whereas I can't do that the to left wheel. The lugs are tight, and it doesn't seem to be making a difference when driving. Any clues on what to look at?

Thanks all

Base91

iTrader: (1)

I think I got my replacement diaphragm from Rockauto.com and I didn't see anywhere else particularly cheaper. But if you need it you need it. As for the rear end, what set up have you got? Check everything is tightened correctly, bushes not worn out, brakes in good shape and adjusted properly. etc. etc.

legendaryhero7

Thanks for the recommendation, Base91. They're actually having a wholesale clearing on them, so I got one for $35.. Talk about good timing! Once that gets here, I'll slap it in and hope for the best!

I also just put in the new EGR. It didn't help with the starting, but it stopped the clicking., and hopefully I'll get better mileage from it not leaking.

I'll take a closer look at the wheel this weekend. Hopefully it's something simple.

Thanks again for everyone's assistance, I'll keep ya'll posted when the diaphragm gets here.

legendaryhero7

That new diaphragm should be here today. Are there any tricks in order to change it out, or will it be as simple as change out a spring and a rubber piece?

Also, that electric motor noise I had mentioned earlier, it's not actually coming from the water pump (I don't know why I thought it was the water pump), but from the thing to the right of the water pump (and under the ac). I'm not actually sure what it is (Here's a picture with it highlighted, not my engine bay btw) http://imgur.com/hxrJeNR

Base91

iTrader: (1)

It's the power steering pump and it shouldn't be making the noise you describe. Make sure it's got the right level of ps fluid. Keep an eye/ear on it in case it gets worse. As for the FPR just undo the screws around the perimeter evenly. Hold it so it doesn't spring apart and take note of how the parts fit. To install just replace the new parts and tighten screws evenly until all are tight.

legendaryhero7

Geez louise, time has flown by! Sorry it's been so long since the last update.

Anywho, I put in that new FPR. It seems to have helped a bit with the starting issue, but it still takes a bit to get it started.

I noticed that, if I I turn the key enough to let the fuel pump run, then turn the key off after it stops priming, then turn the key back on to let the fuel pump run again, then start up the car, it seems to start up right away. I don't know if that's a sign that the fuel pump is going out, but hopefully not.

Welp, hopefully whatever it is, it doesn't get worse throughout the winter. If anyone has any other ideas as to what might be causing the issue, as always, I'm happy to try anything.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

how long does the pump run for the second time you turn it on? The system should hold pressure for a decent period so the pump shouldn't to run the second time or very briefly. If it's just as long as the first time after it's been sitting for a while then you may have a leak in the fuel system. Until you find/fix it you may have to live with pausing to let the pump getting the system up to pressure before actually starting. Take note of how long the pump runs.

legendaryhero7

Alright, well I'm slightly dumbfounded. For the past three days, the car has started without a hitch! But nothing has been done to it... So I'm afraid it'll just start acting up again.

I checked all the fuel pressures, both before it starting working properly and after, and they're the same. The only difference I can tell, is that when it's starting now, it'll actually start with a nice high throttle, like it will start at 2.5k rpm and then go down to a 1.5k idle. Before it would just start and idle at ~1.5k rpm. Is there a sensor that would be the culprit?

Thanks for all your help so far, Base91. Hope all is well.

legendaryhero7

It seems that my fears have come true. The dang thing has started acting up again, and seems to be much worse!

As a foreword: The only thing that happened between yesterday (when it was running fine) and today, is that I filled up with gas.

Now, I really don't know what's going on here, I tried starting it up this morning, and it wouldn't start. So I did the normal, turn key on, let pump, turn off, x3, but still nothing.

The weird thing now though, is that after I tried cranking the engine, the fuel pump just stayed on.

I then recalled that the only thing that has happened between now and when it was starting decently, was that I filled up with gas. So I took the gas cap off, and shook the gas port a bit, and the car started!

After letting it sit for about 10 minutes, I tried to drive to work, but when I came to a stop sign, it died on me again.

Now the only way I can get it started, is to press the gas pedal all the way down while I cranked. But if I let it dip under 2.5k rpm, it dies.

Needless to say this is much worse than before. I'm guessing it's not the fuel pump if I'm able to start the car with the gas pushed in. There was a moment when the "Service engine" light came up, so hopefully I can get some kind of clue from that.

Anyone have any ideas as to what would make this happen? I'm almost to the point of taking it to a mechanic, since working on it outside at 0 degrees fahrenheit is brutal!

Thanks in advanced to anyone that may have an idea!

Base91

iTrader: (1)

There is a vent that lets air into the tank as the fuel level drops. Make sure that's not clogged.

legendaryhero7

Okay, looks like the problem is solved. The issue seemed to be a combination of the Coolant Temp Sensor, and the TPS.

But something else popped up! When I first start the car, the car idles at 3k RPM in park and neutral. But if I put it in gear, it drops down to the normal 1.5k RPM. After I drive the car a bit, I can put it in park and it'll idle at 1.5k, but it seems to surge from 1.3 to 1.5k. Is that an indication that the TPS might be bad? Or is there something that I need to adjust?

Thanks for the help!

Base91

iTrader: (1)

1.5k is not normal idle. Normal is about 700. If you put it gear at high revs it'll slam the transmission. Are you sure you really are idling at 1.5k? You may need to check the rev counter is working right. If the computer can't tell what the engine is really doing it can't control it properly. All the sensors need to feed it the correct information.

legendaryhero7

Thanks Base, you're definitely right about where it should be. I'm fairly sure the counter is working properly, it sounds to me like the engine is indeed going at about 1.5k (but that's just by ear, I don't have anything to make certain). Normally it'll drop down to about 1k after the engine is warmed up, but I don't think I've ever seen it get below that in the past 5 years of owning the car. Maybe I just need to set the idle screw down a bit?

Another thing popped up this morning, the dang VATS is acting up now! I tried starting the car, but the security light wouldn't turn off (and the car wouldn't turn over). So I had to bring the key inside and warm up the resistor to get it to work. I'm going to check and see if there's an easy way to delete it. If anyone has suggestions about that, or can find a good link about it, let me know. (EDIT) It looks like this is a fairly straightforward way to bypass the VATS:
https://www.thirdgen.org/vats

About the high rpms in park/neutral. Could that be the new TPS? I looked around the forums, and it sounds like quite a few people get a cruddy aftermarket TPS right out of the box. I'm thinking it's either that, or maybe my IAC is going out? I'm going to pull that new TPS off and see if I can return it for the Bosch one they have. Hopefully that does the trick. If not, do you recommend anything else?

Thanks again Base, you've been a huge help!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Did you disconnect the battery and reset the ECM after installing the new parts? If not, do so. And then you will need to start and run the engine (if VATS will let you...) for a while for the ECM to relearn the idle settings.

And your idle should be 12-1500 RPM cold and between 7-900 hot.

As for the VATS issue, you can just measure the resistance of the key, go on eBay, and order a matching key blank for about $15, then have it cut at a hardware store. Or get a bypass resistor kit from Sonic Electronics or somewhere for about the same price...

Also, did you replace the fuel filter with the tune up?

Base91

iTrader: (1)

There is no idle screw. It's controlled by the ecm using the idle air control valve. Temperature does affect resistance but I wouldn't think even Montana cold would change it enough to make a difference. Each key resistor has a nominal value but there is a built in tolerance each way. Before returning the TPS you could bench test it. Same with some of the other components. You'll need a digital bolt meter, a 5 volt dc supply (I use a USB on a computer), some wire and some clips and some reading of the manual to understand how each part works. You could waste money replacing stuff that's OK so try to figure out what's wrong. Double check everything. Make sure everything is in place, clean and connected correctly. Check the grounds etc.