SSC

I read the link, it is interesting. I use Lucas in my truck it does help with a few minor leaks and seems not to effect the oil pressure as much as other additives. If you really want to see what an additive does get the engine upto operating temp note the oil pressure and dump it in. Then take a short trip around the block and see how long it takes to drop the pressure back down. I did this with Lucas and Hyper Lube. The hyper lube made the oil pressure jump from 31PSI@ 215* to 70PSI. I did think the oil pump drive was going to snap. The engine got quieter as the bottle was poured in. It took about a mile for the pressure to drop back to 31PSI. With the Lucas the oil pressure only jumped to 40 PSI but pressure droped back down to normal quicker and it does slow the leaks a bit which the hyper lube did not.

85blackberlinet

i bought my car with 210,000 on it from a moron that didnt keep up on mantaining it it smoked bad i dumped a half a quart in and i passed emissions i havent drivin the car much (gas prices) i have seen no problems

rx7speed

just thinking but if your oil pressure goes up wouldn't that mean the stuff is resisting flowing through your oiling system?


least that is what I always though of pressure being is a resistance.

now I don't know if putting something in there thicker that resist flowing your motor the greatest way to solve a problem.

other then maybe band-aid a problem to hold you off a little longer from a rebuild

tad1214

My dad put slick 50 in his Caddy and had to turn down the idle, was idiling too fast. Not sure what the inside looks like.

rx7speed

the only advantage I can really think of with dino juice is it's cheaper

and also castrol isn't a true synthetic
it's just dino juice that has been refined to a little higher standard but still not as good as the real synthetics

r90camarors

No you are completely off....... Think about it....

If you go with a high performance oil pump, your pressure will be signifigantly more. My z28 puts out over 45psi of oil pressure on a fresh engine.

Low oil pressure can be caused by leaks, bad seals, burn off etc. Lucas and stabilizers of the sort help seal those leaks, and thus you get higher pressure. Of course the viscosity has a lot to do with it as well.

rx7speed

ok think about this

low oil pressure can be caused by a leak you said right?
if your leaking wouldn't that mean there is less of a restriction for the oil?

also think about this as motors get older sometimes the oil pressure isn't what it used to be. part of that might be the clearance between parts getting a little larger.
if there is a larger gap between parts that means it is easier for the oil to flow. easier for the oil to flow pressure goes down.


or to sum it up in a real easy fasion.
push again a empty shopping cart. now take the thing fill it up all the heaviest items in the store
the first cart is going t obe easy to push your not going to have to put much pressure on the cart.
the second cart your going to have to put more pressure on it right?

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

i guess we should go ask a bum on the street and ask if his cart is heavier to push now, than we he got it..

82knightrider

iTrader: (1)

rx7speed

but then again there are times where on a good working piece you put something in and it causes more problems then it fixed.

I don't think everyone is having the situation where it is just dying motor/tranny whatever.

rx7speed

your avatar sums it up. you need banned

r90camarors

Wow.

You just keep going on, yet still no valid points. You are using a shopping cart and comparing it to an engine internals?......OK

You are right about worn engine parts and gaps between them, but you are not understanding anything else.

Think about it, and use a real example like fuel. You have a closed system between the feed and return line. Now slice one of the rubber fuel lines. You will loose pressure. Not because there is less restriction, but because you have a leak!!!
Same idea applies to an engine. Leaky gaskets will make for lower pressure, but not because of restiction.

rx7speed

yes the leak will allow the pressure to drop. and it is because of less resistance

if you have a huge closed loop setup as you said just like a motor lets say ok? now cut a huge whole right on the output system
the fluid now has two paths to go to. it follows the path of least resistance most correct?

it works with many things
just like an exhuast
you go from a single 2 1/2 inch pip to dual 2 1/2 pipes your resistance to flow gets less.
it's just like that leak in the exhuast system


or hey even electrnoics follows that same thing
you take a you take a 1ohm resistor vs 2 1ohm resistrs in series the resistance is less for the series circuit.

or here think about this
you even said that with worn out engine internals your going to reduce pressure due to the gaps between parts right? could it be because the gap between the parts allows the oil to go through there without as much resistance?

do you not think that on your fuel system anology your going to have less resistance as there is another path for the fuel to flow? (again read the above examples with the electricity or even the exhuast.)
more open flow area means less total resistance.
you cut a hole in your fuel line you open up more are for the fuel to flow through.


same also goes with viscosity.
if you have a fluid that is more viscios it will restrict flow a little more. try searching for a viscios LSD setup. I know the miata's and some rx7's use them. the way they work is using nice thick oil between a few plates. the oil helps keep those plates somewhat locked together. that same type of LSD will not work water now will it? not enough viscosity to resist the shearing action of those plates.


at least if you are going to tell me I am wrong explain to me WHY I am wrong.
so far you haven't done much of that plus you seem to want to break some physics ideas.

rx7speed

to bring this back up
have you ever noticed that cold motor oil doesn't flow as well. have you also noticed that on some cars cold oil pressure usually is higher?
maybe it's cause the car leaks when it's warmed up right?
or could it be because the cold oil generally doesn't flow as well and resist the flow
what do you think many of these addatives are?
most the ones I made are 10w-40 weight oil with lots of polymers.
VERY thick stuff.
the stuff doesn't flow that well. and since pressure


all in all things are very simple
pressure is a resitance.
the more pressure you apply to something to move it the same distance the more resitance there is. part of why I brought up that shopping cart example. even though a motor isn't a shopping cart the idea still applies. again pressure is resistance. if pressure goes down resistance goes down.

r90camarors

You are still not getting it. Your explanation after explanation of resistance are fine. Anyone with a garden hose can figure that out. But a shopping cart, electrical, and even your engine examples do not apply to this topic.

Going off of your own statements, pressure increases do to resistance. So running these products (lucas) that help seal bad gaskets and worn engine parts will in turn raise oil pressure. Granted the viscosity of these products also ups the pressure, but it is obviously doing it's job if it is sealing. Viscostiy is the draw back of lucas but in exchange you get the sealing capabilities, as indicated by many who have experianced less oil consumtion and smoke. And I think it is safe to say people using these products are more concerned with keeping their engines running a little longer than losing a few horse power because of viscosity.

Further more, pressure is not a bad thing.....I don't know what your rx7 needs.....but iirc most small blocks should be at least 30psi @ 2,000rpm. Viscosity is also needed by the pure basis of how oil works in an engine. Yes, lucas is some thick stuff, but keep in mind it is mixing with 4 quarts of oil, and the benifits outwiegh the negetives.
Lets see....the negatives of lucas would be an oiling system that doesn't flow as well do to the thickness. The positives: At least it is flowing, as opposed to following the path of least resistence (i.e. poor seals, worn parts). In the perfect world of bandade fixes, I guess the product would be 5w-30 and still work. In the perfect world, engines wouldn't need to circulate oil at all either. But unfortuantly that is not the case. Engines need oil pressure. Many vehicles need thicker oil in the summer so the oil doesn't thin to much when hot. We need the oil to circulate through the entire engine.

rx7speed

first I just want to ask you to further explain yourself
you keep saying I'm wrong but offer no explanation really as to why.


first you said that pressure is not a resistance to flow. please explain that further. you have yet to do so.


can you also explain how cutting the fuel line in your second post is going to reduce pressure without it being less of a restriction.

can you also explain how my analogies are not relevent here?
just because it is not the same exact thing doesn't mean it can't be applied. growing apples vs growing grapes might have some different things yes. but in the end a lot of the same ideas still apply. just becuase an electrical system might be different then a fluid system. some of the same ideas still can apply. to make that point in an electrical system you up the resistance by putting a higher ohm resister in place your total current decreases, in a fluid system you up the resistance by using a smaller hole for the fluid to flow through your total fluid flow is going to decrease. see what I mean? some of the ideas for one thing still work for other things. so once again explain to me HOW my analogies don't work.

stock oil pressure on my rx7 is 30psi at idle and by 2000rpms oil pressure should be 60psi. but there is a difference on how the oil pressure can be generated. on my mazda there is a plug at the end of the oiling system if I remember right or restrictor piece whatever you wish to call it. you can get a different one to up the pressure to the whole system. a setup like that isn't all that bad. but then comes the restriction from within the oiling system itself. when you have a piece restricting the flow of oil everything after that is going to get less oil at less pressure. but being on my mazda the oil restrictor is at the end of the chain it is a little differnt it presurizes the parts BEFORE the restriction. causing a restriction before the parts beinging oiled doesn't do much good


also with thicker oil there do come some downsides. for one cold startup wear. at this point the oil doesnt' want to flow the oil will have a hard time making it into the tighter clearance spots like bearings and cylinder walls and such. sinec the oil resist this flow it allows these parts to wear a little longer.
another thing even when warmed up thicker oil still will try to resist flow to certain parts if the tolerances are tight enough.


also with you saying that the lucas is flowing and not following the path of least resistance (ie worn engine parts) might I have you explain that a little further also. it almost makes it sound that worn engine parts are not going to get oiled very well. wouldn't that cause more harm then good?


I agree that engines need oil pressure but agin think about it there are multiple ways to make pressure some good some bad.

also with what you said about going off my own statement what if the engine has no leaks? pressure would still go up because the oil is going to resist going into parts it needs to get into like once again your bearings. if the oil doesn't want to get into your bearings where oil is needed your pressure still goes up but end result isn't that great


and I won't deny the whole engines might need thicker oil in summer though I don't run it as thick as what the books say I should. 5w-30 (both say 20w-50) and in the mazda 5w-20 during the winter, haven't tried it on the honda but I might depending on how she goes.

and yes lucas might seal oil leaks but in my opinion it would be better to fix the problem rather then hide the problem with something like this.


now once again though before you post a reply please explain things a little further if you are going to say I'm wrong. if you can prove your point I will admit I was wrong I have no problem with that it's just you haven't given me much to work with as far as informing me of how I am wrong. also if you could please try to address the first few questions I asked you on this post as you still have left them for the most part unanswered



EDIT: one other thing I was going to say but forgot. if you really want oil pressure try installing a 1/8" wide hole to feed your motor after the oil filter. chances are your pressure guage will read will good but guess how well the engine is going to like that?


also for an oiling system to work it doesn't entirly need pressure. there are quite a few systems setup to run without oil pressure and if I remember right chevy even had a setup like that with some of their motors WAY back when. true for oiling a motor it is better and more efficient but the system can be made without the pressure.what you need is the oil to get there and not be hampered by restrictions BEFORE it gets to the critical parts

Poncho Villa

Thicker oil will cushion worn engine parts, you would think, and increase ring sealing and compression, and most likely oil pressure as well. Try rubbing Hyperlube between your fingers. But as someone said, with four quarts of oil, and at operating temperature, the oil should still flow just fine.

Whether or not Lucas foams up, or causes problems, is still open to debate, but with thousands of people using it, and Lucas sponsoring drag racing, it can't be that bad. I have used Hyperlube Racing Formula in a few cars, including a Camaro and my current car, a Pontiac Firebird. Neither car burned oil, I just put it in for added protection.

I noticed my engine running smoother and quieter. Checking the dipstick, the viscosity of the oil didn't seem any different, nor was it foamy. I would first suggest switching to 20/50 in a high miles motor, and changing it every 2000 miles, using a K&N Oil Filter (slightly bigger than others, with bigger drain holes). Let your motor warm up in the morning, and don't rev the pee out of it, and it should last a long time.

Dizturbed One

You are obviously still arguing your point only because you want to be "right", rather than trying to solve a question or problem we are all facing. It's all well and good to use science to help clear things up, but you can't simply address one physical effect and mention nothing of the resulting related effects just to better your arguement.

Your analogies of "pressure" and "resistance" are correct for the MOST part (although a bit crude), but your application of this knowledge is off quite a ways... You don't seem to understand a few key things.

Although resistance CAN CREATE pressure... Pressure DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUAL resistance. Your Mazda motor uses resistance to make pressure with that little hole you spoke of. If pressure made resistance, there would be a vicious cycle of pressure building up in your motor until it blew apart.

Suddenly high readings on an Oil Pressure Gauge is indicative of a blockage, which creates pressure, therefore causing reason for alarm when there is no other factor involved. But when you put too much oil in your motor and there is too much pressure there is NO blockage, your motor is still being oiled well, just there is too much oil taking up too much space, which creates too much pressure for the seals.

THEREFORE

The thickness of the stuff isn't as relevant as you make it sound. Once mixed with 5 quarts of oil it may raise your oil's viscosity a bit, but not much. You talk as it will magically transform ALL of your oil into the same consistency as the Lucas or Powerpunch or Hyperlube etc. that you put in it.

In reality, when used according to directions, it will jump your viscosity very minimally. 5w-30 with some Lucas is NOT going to magically turn into butter. It will in all reality probably not even put it at the same viscosity as some 10w-40 (which most people seem to have no problem putting in a motor).

So therefore, the viscosity isn't much of an issue.

And you seem to think that because of the thickness, it's going to be extremely hard for the oil pump to start pushing the stuff around on startup... That's bull. Most of this stuff is 99.9% petroleum, and once ran in your motor will be mixed with your oil, it's not going to seperate. Like I said before, it's only going to jump your viscosity a little when used in proper amounts, and the effect will be akin to using an oil one step higher on the oil viscosity index (if even that much).

BUT... The stuff DOES cling to metal rather well, so I would imagine it would HELP reduce startup wear immensely. At least that top end still has a little petro sticking to it, unlike the watery 5w-30 sitting in your oil pan that immediately drained to the bottom of your motor when you turned it off.

You are arguing for the wrong reasons, the slight thickness it adds, and the pressure it creates, isn't the problem people are trying to address.

It is the foaming that is the problem. The problem of introducing air into the system.

Argue about THAT.

rx7speed

thickness of the oil can make quite a bit of diference I Would say
just between 10w-30 vs 20w-50 I see about a difference of 10 psi of oil pressure.
much more when one time I tried using some oil addative which for a while there peaking near 110psi (few times more)
that oil addative didn't stay long though.

as far as difference between the 10w-30 vs 20w-50 I noticed the thicker oil takes a little more time before it started to read correct oil pressure either at idle or at 2000+rpms. first off it takes a little bit more time for it to even register pressure under the thicker oil.
with some oil addatives it took even longer. but since my rx7 hasn't ran in quite a few months and it has been even longer since I ran the oil addatives I don't remember what they where anymore.



the arguing of foam i nthe system I wouldn't know about with lucas but I know when we mixed some other oil addatives at my old job that stuff in the mixer was all bubbly and when it came out of the machine into the cans,bottles whatever depending on who's product we made most of them aired up with lots of bubbles.
but that coudl also be atributed to part of the machine itself and not the oil.

and I wasn't arguing just to be right. he said I was wrong with no reason to back it up and in my mind it didn't make sense to me. I replied all he did was say I was wrong again but never made much of an attempt to say why. if anything it almost seems as though he is just running around with anything he can just to say I'm wrong.
if I am wrong then fine and to be honest it can happen since I'm not always right but I would at least like to know why. it's part of my curious nature. I like to learn. and if my information is wrong tell me why so I can learn from it.

Dizturbed One

I re-read my post and it sorta sounded like I was flaming you because of that first paragraph, I apologize for that. I just wanted to point out certain things I noticed which weren't adding up quite right.

You're right, he was doing about the same thing, but I tended to not notice it or point it out because I was agreeing with his point of view a little more, so there was a natural bias on my part. Again, sorry about that.

And yes, 10w-40 to 20w-50 is a big difference, but like I said, there would very doubtfully be that much of a viscosity change with an additive that is used in correct proportion.

I think the only real problem we're looking at is the possible introduction of air into the system due to "foaming". Not the thickness or oil pressure issues, because that is exactly what is expected of the product by even the most naive of users.

I suspect that used in correct proportions the anti-foaming additives in oil would be sufficient to stop that, but I hold no actual knowledge here of the more complex composition of oil, so I will not feign intelligence in this matter.

I do know that Powerpunch has helped me with NUMEROUS problems and given me alot of extra miles out of some pretty questionable vehicles.

rx7speed

don't worry you didn't sound that harsh to me. I know things sometimes get lost on the internet in translation so I try to take that into account unless you are flat out bashing me or I can't really see any other way to take it.

and yes these products might work but my philosphy is to hopefully not to use them.
this is my own opinion so I might be wrong here but oil has it's own addatives to prevent wear and is made to be a specific thickness and such. by adding these other addatives to the mix it would seem the percentage of addatives already in the oil are going to be diluted and who knows what else they are adding to the addatives as is. the only thing I can remember on some of the products we made was of course oil (typicly 10w-40) which made up the majority of the addative with some polymers (big ol' chunks of plastic like stuff that gets ground up in a meat grinder then melted) and sometimes a little cleaning agent like kerosene if I remember right. but again it has been a while I made any oil products for that company since most anymore all we did was package up stuff for tranny flushes, or cleaner/degreaser products, or bottle up our own product which ironicly is made somewhere else.
to me I would rather have a pure lubricant which the normal anti-wear agents, anti foaming and other stuff that normally comes in most motor oils. if I have something that leaks I try to fix it like the valve cover gasket broke into 3 pieces on my honda when I adjusted the valves. BTW when the specs call for .006" clearance when cold and you can measure most of them to .012-.015 with a few going up to .025" it makes for a much quieter car when all is fixed. just hope I don't have too much wear on the cam,valves cause of that. noticed a little but I hope it isn't enough to cause any real problems.

I have some leaky valve seals and/or o-rings on the head also that let a little oil burn in the combustion process. in my opinion on this it would be better to try to fix the seals rather then band-aid the problem by using an addative so the oil doesn't leak as much cause who knows how the thicker oil work with the rest of the system. I know I'm not willing to take that chance.

also since we have talked about oil addatives and viscousity. I would think the addative would be making a difference in viscousity even if it is only 1pt addative vs 4pts oil. thicker oil prolly isn't going to go through those leaks right? I doubt it really seals them up as claimed but rather something like just thickens it up enough as to know allow it to get through those little leaks. and with my line of thinking if the oil gets thick enough not to go through those leaks how well is it going to do at getting into those bearings?
as I said I might be wrong but these are just my views right now and if I am wrong I would enjoy knowing why so I can learn from it.

I will say though if I had a motor I knew was on it's last leg anyway I would maybe try something to get a little more life out of it. my figuring is if it is already on the dead end road might see if I can go a little further cause atthis point what do I have to lose?


also as far as the pressure resistance thing and vicious never ending thing til lthe motor blew up. that is why the little hole is more like a valve to regulate the pressure to a specific level

and yes I'm crude with my analogies I try to be. at points it makes it easier to understand then if I got all technical and stuff. part of it comes from doing tech support over the phone. people don't understand half of what you say if you tell them in detail. tell them in crude form or dumb it down they understand it a little better. part of the problem though is for those that know what your talking about it doesn't sound right and it seems to be missing information. in truth it is but at least it gets the point accross though.
as far as adding more oil to the motor creating more pressure I have a funny story you guys. this lady one time figured she was low on oil so what she did on her new car (think it was a BMW) was to to add oil to the motor till she saw the oil at the top of the valve cover. can you say massive pressure leading to a boom!!! sux to be her.


with the whole foaming thing the only "proof" I have seen is on bobistheoilguy.com or something like that. only thing is I see a few problems with that. first off it looks like the other product that was used for testing is a product he promotes heavily so it sounds a little biased. just like 57kid he sells amsoil so he acts a little bias. granted he will still recomend oils other then amsoil but if he can he will tell you about amsoil and sell you on that or so it seems (no disrespect to mr 57 by this either). the other thing is this is a non-pressured system. granted the whole oiling system on a motor isn't pressurised but a bit of it is that pressure should reduce foaminga little I would think while bob used a gear drivesetup instead. also I would think having his gears the way they are situated would promote foaming. sure might be relevent to a tranny but not sure it would be the same as an engine. also with his shaeffers oil he used 80w-90 with the lucas he used 80w-140. as you can already see two different oils two different viscousities by far which I would think would allow for different foaming properties. as far as when he used motor oil he talked about saying the oil pump has gears and sure it might but from my understanding the gears and such in the oil pump should be fully covered in oil (again I might be wrongas I'm more framiliar with the chain driven oil pump on my mazda)


last thing I want to say is please forgive me as normal I'm not running on very much sleep right now so my post tend to be long and a little iffy on the wording as well as ordering of what I say. so in this case I'm off to bed.


last part though if your really currious about foaming put some lucas in your motor oil run the motor for a moment to get the oil agitated up to where you should see foaming (I'm not tlaking let the car idle) then drain all the oil into a pan you can see how the oil looks. you should be able to tell how foamy the oil is getting from that a lot better then you could just off the dipstick.

night all

rx7speed

ok one last thing. I really need to learn how to sum up my post. who the hell is going to want to read a long thing like that without getting bored and saying screw it.

oh well once again goodnight

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

Dizturbed One... "my dad is bigger than your dad"

rx7speed.. " naw uh "

Dizturbed One... " Yes Hu"

rx7speed... " naw uh "

Dizturbed One... " Yes Hu"

rx7speed.. " naw uh "

r90camarors

Not to get things started up again, but......In respects to a SBC (I don't know about an RX7)

You are wrong. And since I have to spell everything out for you to see why you are wrong, here it goes in respect to the application:
The dipstick will be a more accurate gauge then draining the oil. Why? Because of time. Rev your engine up to above cruise rpm, and check your dipstick. A better indicator is to pull a valve cover off and check while the engine is running. Only down side to that is it can get a little messy.
Draing your oil will take time and allow the oil to settle while the air (being lighter than oil mix) will work its way up and out of the oil.

However, all of this is irrelevant. The test used in the link at the beginning of the post is limited at it's best. No where does it give a percentage of the mix between oil and lucas. For all we know, it was 100% lucas.
I am not sure what % of lucas is not petroleum, but remember you have to divide that number by the total number of quarts in the system. For example, if lucas is 95% petroleum, that leaves 5% not. Take in consideration the other four qaurts of motor oil in the system and that leaves you w/ 1% non petroleum.

rx7speed

didn't think about taking a valve cover off but yeah I know thta can get messy when you do and the car is runnig
but it shouldn't take that long for the oil to drain and if it is oil change time anyway

last thing though if lucas is mostly petrolium why not just use a thicker oil as it seems that is most of what lucas is. and being that most the addatives in lucas are going to be dilluted anyway with the other 4qts of oil.

rx7speed

hey my daddy is a big boy just a short boy.
if nothing else I'm just about sure he can take the trophy for the hairiest.

kaaawaz28

I run Lucas products in both my cars,My 94z28 is my daily driver and I also run in Progas at the local dragstrip,I have had no probs with it.Only probs I have seen is any doctor in a can used on high mileaged vehicles.

Red Devil

My biggest bitch to it is that right there. I used to laugh at the display with the blender parts showing how Lucas would cling and climb as opposed to the regular oil which would just coat a little and that it.

That's all you want. Can you fathom wat is happening in the oil pump? It's two damn gears and yes, you will have problems there as it will make it harder to pump.

Lets not forget cold starts either shall we? That increase in viscosity may be enough to pop the bypass. Mmmmmm... unfiltered oil is yummy in your engine.

Then we have the 'clingyness' on the crank, cam, etc, etc. Yes you will have foaming. Hell, regular oil has foaming issues, that's why there are anti-foaming additives in it. Throw in a little lucas and exacerbate a pre-existing problem, not to mention that there is now LESS additive to go around. And I wonder how much is clinging onto the block walls and valley floor?

BUT, it's your engine. I personally never recommend it unless the engine is dead. At that point you really can't kill it again so why not? I think the engineers that designed the oiling system knew a thing or two and I'll trust their design over an additive trying to fix a non issue.

rx7speed

you don't know what your talking about

r90camarors

He doesn't know what he is talking about. Obviously he hasn't read any of the previous discussions in the thread. His points are mostly accurate, but irrelevant to 95% of this post. The fact that you should only use this stuff as a bandade for a dying engine has already been beaten to death....... But would you rather your engine blow up tomorrow or months down the road??? Hmmm....tough question



think about what you just said......
For all you non believers of lucas I'll tell ya what I'm going to do:
1)Buy a cheap blender w/ high speed blend.
2)do a test w/ only lucas
My hypothesis: It will foam just like it did in the link.
3) test 4parts oil 1 part lucas
My hypothesis: No foam at all. All haters will then come up with more sorry examples. I then do the same test but with a high speed drill and mixer. Once again the mixture will not foam. Yet somebody will come a long months after the origional post and claim that it does indeed foam

rx7speed

you say it's your hypothosis yet you give the crazy face if someone was to come and claim it was to foam?
isn't a hypothesis just an educated guess?
also someone did do it with gears already and it did foam. it foamed much worse then the stuff without lucas
crazy face for him also since it goes against your hypothesis before you even tried it?

also don't understand why you said he might be mostly accurate but not know what he is talking about?

and then stating what he said has little relevance to this post. it seems to have relevance to me being that people in THIS post have also talked about using it when they first get the car whether it's a dying motor or not.

maybe I also need to get some sleep cause your post didn't go well with me understanding it.

Red Devil

Why not try and explain those seemingly contradictory positions?

I'm pretty sure I apparently know nothing. IIRC I posted very early on in this thread so I may have an inkling on the previous discussions. I'm accurate, yet not? Excellent! And what exacly would be relevant?

The premise of the thread was to be careful uing this product, how exaclty was my post not relevant?!? Notwithstanding of course that it's a public message board and I don't remember Dirk coming in and asking anyone to stop posting in this thread. Granted I'm not beating on one point of the whole discussion as you, but you seem to want to drop the common sense reasoning behind most people's objections.

Red Devil

Oh, and since you cling to the foaming issue, the display was a Lucas display, it didn't foam. I'm saying it will foam in the engine after it wraps all the lubricant all over the crank, you need a better experiment platform.

r90camarors

Simply because 1)It's not going to matter-you people are obviously stuck on your ideas being right, I'd be wasting my breath. But I've got breath to waste right now, so you will get answers 2)It already has been explained throughout this thread, and I am tired of this argueing about this subject. Believe what you want.

It is an educated guess based on various observations Well let's see. He references the thicker viscosity causing the oil pump to work harder. This he is accurate. However, can he back up his statement, "you will have problems there as it will make it harder to pump." I've been running lucas in my 305 since I bought it 2 years ago.....I haven't had any problems with the oil pump......nor has anyone I've known using it. Thus, I consider that talking BS.

And "Lets not forget cold starts either shall we? That increase in viscosity may be enough to pop the bypass. Mmmmmm... unfiltered oil is yummy in your engine." Ok, thicker viscosity MAY be enough to do this but it is HIGHLY unlikely. Why don't you guys try this. do four qts of 5w-30 and 1 bottle of lucas. make sure it is nicely mixed and feel the viscosity. It's not the honey you make it out to be. Now "play" with it a little. compare it to regular oil. You will notice it sticks, but still moves very well. Yes, it leaves resedue(as it is meant to). But notice how well it flows? Now compare the flow of the 5w-30 lucas mix to 10w-30. You will notice they are practically equal.

Lastly he attacks "clingyness" He is right on the properties, and lists the negatives. But he neglects to mention the positives. The clingyness is exactly what helps seal the warn parts for crying out loud!
Further more, if the "clingyness" is so extensive, as he says, you would see it with a simple dip stick test. Think about it for crying out loud...it's not rocket science. But if you need me to completely explain I will.

OMG!!! you have got to be kidding me right? How can oil have foaming issues if they specifically put anti-foam agents in it! Do you mean crude oil....or maybe dense...... Why? rotary is rotary. On a crank or on a drill mixer. The drill or blender would actually be a much more induring test as the oil/lucas mixture will constantly be exposed to high rpm, where as it will cycle in the engine...... You are not accurate. Theory does not always tranfer to real life applications. How is your post irrelevent? Easy. You are listing negetives to this product. However these negetives are irrelevent to 95% of people using this product. Why you ask? Because the majority of people using lucas have already have problems greater than anything lucas can possibly cause. So what if your oil pump works a little harder? A better ring seal is more important than an oil pump working a little harder. Not to mention you(rx7) were so big on parts wearing, it would be safe to assume the oil pump gears are warn as well, correct? So the thicher viscosity is making the oil pump work as hard as when it was new? You have yet to prove that the mixture foams as well, while I have stated numerous tests from simply checking the dipstick to pulling the valve covers. If the crank is your issure, than the dipstick test while the engine is running will work. Hey wait, I have done that, and NO FOAM. Come on. Get real proof. Make points that are valid and valid concerns. But stop posting BS just to try to be right or because somebody you knew had a crap engine, tried the product, and the already dead engine finally croaked.

tad1214

Just so you know, once lucas is put in with the oil, it forms a homogenuous mixture, meaning equal all the way through. It can't "wrap around the crank" leaving all of the lubricant on the crank. It would potentially wrap the lubricant oil MIX around the crank, not one or another. What your telling me is that the crank is going to pull the lucas out of the mixture and get stuck on the crank. Sorry but the flag goes up on this one.

Red Devil

1. My observations are based soley on engines I've worked on or torn down, or experiences passed on by mechanics and engine builder's I know and trust.

2. 5W 30 by itself can pop the bypass on a cold start, poor example, try again.

3. No, as most can't tell the difference on a dipstick test between 10w30 vs. 20w50. Nevermind additive packages that change the characteristics of said oil.

4. If tghere were no issues there would not be an additive package for it. If you'd like to imagine it, imagine al ton of your oil clinging to the china walls, the lifter valley, in the passages, etc and the level in the pump dropping enough to introduce some air in there. Want to guess what it looks like? No need, it's been done and you wouldn't believe the results.
Furthermore, you won't spin that little hand blemder anywhere near what you'll see in a motor and you won't have the same centrifigal forces, shearing forces, and airflow/oilflow issues you have at the crank. Hell oil clings enough to the crank that we use scrapers to correct that problem, instead you advocate the use of a product that will exacerbate that problem. Very accurate as I have seen actual tests in shops on this crap.

Again, as stated previously, I won't recommend it, unless of coarse the engine is already beyond repair or similar corcumstances prevail.

Oh and before I get all that BS about 'that's what you want' in the bearings etc. BS, that just makes the smaller amount of oil you have work harder, and should you wrap enough lubricant around your crank and have enough clinging to various areas within the engine, you know what? You'll also help yourself to damage to the oil and probably the bearings as well.

Granted, if we are moving all of the discussion to dead motors we won't have this problem because everyone using these snake oils will baby that thing right?



Gee, I would never have fathomed that, thank you for the 7th grade lesson on homogenous mixtures, I skipped that grade.
Keep the flag and use it for someone else, preferably yourself. I said 'lubricant', not 'lucas'. My English was proper, your reading of it was not. Furthermore I have addressed this in the past and apparently you are the only one who read 'Lucas' rather than 'lubricant' in that instance. I could simplify it for you and just call it 'oil' but that wouldn't be entirely correct either would it? Try again.

kaaawaz28

Whats nice about this discussion,we all have our opinions and thats what makes us individuals.Like I said earlier,I run my car in progas at our local drags,I have been running lucas products for a little over a year with no problems in lubrication whatsoever.So far all the guys and girls that run lucas have been fine.Things happen with cars,No matter what you do.I know of people who wont run Quakerstate or Valvoline because someone they knew had issues with those products.Heres my opinion,I myself wouldnt use a lot of products on high mileage vehicles that are ready to die,introduce a doctor in the bottle to an engine on its last leg and expect it to die.
Much Mahalos Thomas

rx7speed

since you also want to point out how we are only looking at it once sided and being such it can't be taken very well

what about you? you seem to only be talking about it in the idea of being used on a worn motor. does that discount your ideas also since you aren't talking about it on a new motor just like we don't really mention the pluses of using lucas?


I remember saying that lucas on a dying motor might not be that bad. I agree if it is already dying or dead you don't have much to lose.


BUT if you are trying this on a new motor or one in good shape.... THESE ARE THE THINGS YOU NEED TO WATCH OUT FOR.




also since you seem to want to use your one test that hasn't been done yet as the end all to oil foaming I will beat you to it

the above has no lucas



the above has lucas


one is foamed cut and dry one test ends all I mean something spinning is something spinning right and it foamed so lucas makes oil foam up

r90camarors

"1. My observations are based soley on engines I've worked on or torn down, or experiences passed on by mechanics and engine builder's I know and trust."

Ok.

"2. 5W 30 by itself can pop the bypass on a cold start, poor example, try again."

No poor example on your part. If 5w 30 can pop the bypass then I think we all have problems....Seriously, if that is the case, then you're telling me that running 5w 30 in my car right now could have pop the bypass? So unfiltered oil could be circulating through my engine right now? Well than I guess we are all screwed, huh? But if that is the case, then why are you naming it as a negetive to lucas? If regular oil can pop the bypass as well as lucas, then both have that risk. How can you pin it as a negetive on lucas if even 5w 30 can pop the bypass as well?..... Personally I think your statement is BS about 5w 30 popping the bypass, but whatever I will go along with you on that to prove the point.

"3. No, as most can't tell the difference on a dipstick test between 10w30 vs. 20w50. Nevermind additive packages that change the characteristics of said oil."

Once again....WOW!!!! I knew I was going to have to explain this when I posted it, but I was actually hoping you would have some kind of common sense. But I will spell it out for you.
"Further more, if the "clingyness" is so extensive, as he says, you would see it with a simple dip stick test. Think about it for crying out loud...it's not rocket science. But if you need me to completely explain I will."
I NEVER said anything about the viscosity in this particular response.....Read it again if you need... If it is clingy to various parts of the engine to such an extensive degree as you say, the would be less oil in the oil pan!!!! And a simple dip stick check will varify that it's not the case. But if you want, I will do an oil change, and add 4qts motor oil and a bottle of lucas. I will run the engine, and shut it of at various engine temps. I will immediately (well maybe a minute) check the dipstick after engine shut off. The oil reading will be right where it should be. I know. I have done this already, but I will document it next time.


Also, when did I say anything about a freakin hand blender???? What!?!?!Why?!?!? Come on, geeze!!! I will use an electric blender.

"Geeze, I would never have fathomed that, thank you for the 7th grade lesson on homogenous mixtures, I skipped that grade."

You might want to think about going back and retaking it then instead of critisizing him for making your post rediculas

rx7speed

lol learn how to use quotes

to start a quote you type
[ quote ]
then you have to END the quote with a /
it looks like [ /quote ]
pay attention to the /
once again [/ quote ]
just take the spaces out


I'm not picking on you just giving you a hard time. please don't take it personally

rx7speed

your getting a little better

r90camarors

lol I'm trying

rx7speed

I must of just hit it in that part where right before you tried to edit it

but yeah much bettter then when I first saw it
first thing in my mind was wtf is he smoking and does he share?
but then I thought about my job and how they can possibly do drug test and the fact I have been clean for a while (only smoked pot) and even though I wasn't addicted to it I know I don't need it then figured he was just inhaling the lucas fumes and didn't think it was worth trying to smoke that stuff


sorry it's been a long day and trying to learn air line pricing stuff at my new travel agency job is weird


airlines are screwed up

r90camarors

WRONG!!! Like I have said numerous times throughout this post regarding that link, the test is totally useless.

Read though the entire page. At no point does he give any kind of mixture % on the lucas. That is because it is not mixed with any oil. Look at the color. That is pure lucas! If the test werew done 4 parts oil and 1 part lucas it would be a valid test.
But it is not valid, because it is pure lucas. After you have a 80/20 mix of oil to lucas, the anti foaming agent in the oil prevent the mixture from foaming! Of course the lucas without any anti foaming agents will foam!!!!

r90camarors

ahh it's all good. Had a long day myself Done argueing for the evening

rx7speed

how valid is your blender test going to be?


first the oil isn't as hot as a motor, your blender test isn't going through all the different types of shearing forces that a motor is going to put on oil
all in all your blender test isn't the same as a motor so fairly useless as well.


btw read above you will see I tried to explain how that test might not be so valid either.

rx7speed

also with the above pictures they did kinda explain how they added the lucas in here


http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...5;t=000207;p=2

Red Devil

Good.

Cold starts will do it, Lucan may exacerbate it, or pop it when regular 5w30 wouldn't.

Ok, even that way, rev the **** out of the motor and do you dipstick test, guess what I've done it too. My main concern has never really been srainback, but that is affected as well. Want to keep reaching?

The hand blender is Lucas' own display that I have mentioned here and before.

So far you haven't shown me anything, and we have a few sites that apparently document things better than either of us. Lucas is snake oil for well maintained engines and is absolute crap for performance motors, particularly ones in which their owners expect to actually use the performance part of that.

Honestly, you argue little better than mikey, hopefully the next install will be more entertaining, I'm groing tired of this.

Red Devil

Hadn't we all agreed on this more or less already?

Vader

Thousands of people use cocaine, too.

Winston (tobacco) sponsored NASCAR for many years.

"it can't be that bad."

That's not sound reasoning. Thousands of people also bought Yugos. I could go on forever. Testimonials are not science, but merely opinion.

I was taught many, many years ago (probably more years than many of you have been alive) that people are stupid. Individuals can be brilliant, but place them in a group, and the group mentality degrades to the lowest common denominator. Study sociology for a couple years, and see the evidence. Just because "everyone else is doing it" doesn't make it the best, most intelligent choice.

Anyone remember ProLong? TMT? Slick50? Is anyone still ignorant enough to even THINK of using that excrement in something about which they might care even a little bit?

Never mind. The previous paragraph asnswered my question already. Yes, people still use them, because people are STUPID!