bwmcam

Anyone tried this AC conversion package from R12 to 134a with a sanden compressor? Looks like it is bolt on.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVROLET-R4...4132a1&vxp=mtr

T/Aperformance

I personally wouldn't even consider going to 134a as it will soon be not available, just like the R12 in the US.

bwmcam

With that in mind I went to the EPA website and I did not see that 134a is going away. According to their statement 134a is not an 'HFC blend' (meaning not with CFC). It in merely an 'HFC' (Hydrofluorocarbon) which is not ozone depleting. R12 or CFC-12 is restricted since it depletes the ozone.

So that's good news, right?! Is it going away ? If it is what are they using in new cars?

According to the rule below, notice the first sentence, they are not restricting HFC refrigerant R-134a.

I copied this from the EPA site:
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/faq.html

Has EPA finalized the rule on restricting the sale of R-134a? Is it still legal to purchase R-134a?
EPA has finalized a rulemaking (69 FR 11946; March 12, 2004)(43 pp, 491 KB) that does not include a restriction on the sale of HFC refrigerant R-134a. EPA has limited the sales restriction to refrigerants that contribute to depletion of the stratospheric ozone layer, including HFC blends containing an ozone-depleting substance (e.g., FRIGC FR-12, Free Zone, Hot Shot or R-414B, GHG-X4 or R-414A, and Freeze 12). While EPA does not restrict the sale of pure HFC substitutes, it remains illegal to knowingly vent HFC substitutes during the maintenance, service, repair, or disposal of air-conditioning and refrigeration equipment (i.e., appliances).

EPA’s factsheet, “The Refrigerant Sales Restriction,” provides detailed information on the types of certification required to purchase refrigerants.

Follow the link "The Refrigerant Sales Restriction", which gives a little more information, I posted it below.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/sales/sales.html
Does the sales restriction apply to HFC refrigerants?

This sales restriction only applies to refrigerants consisting of an ozone-depleting substance. Therefore, HFC refrigerants such as R-134a, and HFC refrigerant blends that do not contain an ozone-depleting substance, such as R-404A and R-410A, are not currently covered under this sales restriction.
Refrigerant blends that consist of an HFC and an ozone-depleting substance (such as, FRIGC FR-12, Free Zone, Hot Shot® or R-414B, GHG-X4 or R-414A, Freeze 12) are captured under this sales restriction. Section 608 or 609 technician certification is required to purchase these refrigerants.

Also, looking at the supply of 134a, see the link below

http://www.mcquay.com/McQuay/DesignS...ResourceCenter

• No Refrigerant Phase Out Date – HFC-134a has zero ozone depletion potential (ODP) and is not targeted for phase out by the Montreal Protocol, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency or the Kyoto Protocol. HCFC-123 has ozone depleting properties and will be phased out of new equipment in 2020 and production will cease in 2030. (more)
• Refrigerant Availability Not In Jeopardy – With no production phase out date, there are no roadblocks to an ample supply of HFC-134a being available for the useful life (25+ years) of a new centrifugal chiller. HCFC-123 production and consumption is capped in the United States and will be reduced to 0.5% of current levels in 2020, jeopardizing the ability to benefit from the full economic value of equipment purchased today. (more)

Please let me know if you find any other information out there, I would definitely like to read it. Thanks!

T/Aperformance

Its not going to become illegal its that the patten on it is going to expire soon. just like R12 did here in the states , You'll still be able to get it in other countries just like you can get R12 in Mexico. But it is not going to be imported into the United States , Many in the HVAC industry are starting to stock pile this just like we did with the r12 remember how the cost went up with that, Well it's happening again, And if you're going to use a lot of it buy a lot of it now before its hard to get with out a ton of money

ringo234

Got proof.

T/Aperformance

Yes I do. And you can check your self, You can do an on line search and find out, You can go down to your local HVAC supplier and talk to them or you can get your HVAC license and you will be kept up to date as to what is happening in the industry

loneroad

iTrader: (3)

What is the difference in performance between the 2 compressors.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Read the auction closer.

A Sanden will work on the driver's side applications (I had an aftermarket AC conversion on a non-AC Chevy which used one w/ an aftermarket steel bracket setup) but nothing about that auction says "looks like it will bolt onto 87 Camaro accessories" to me.

ringo234

I'm retrofitting my Camaro next weekend (new compressor, accumulator and orifice tube) with R134A and I bought 6 12oz. cans on Ebay for $45. enough to last a while. It is going to be a good long while before R134A will be to expensive to use IMO.

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

I did a very similar Sanden conversion on my '86 Suburban. I had already done a serpentine accessories conversion from my '90 5.7L Suburban, so I had the R-4 style compressor along with that.

I did mine a lot cheaper than $445 though. I got the Vintage Air R-4 to Sanden conversion brackets for $70 (exactly the same as what's pictured in that auction), a remanufactured Sanden 508 compressor for an '89 Jeep Cherokee off eBay for $80 (already set up for a GM-style seven rib serpentine belt), a Four Seasons #38621 Orifice Tube from an 80's Ford Thunderbird, a new ACDelco Reciever/Drier from RockAuto, and a GM-style Sanden Compressor Backpad from eBay (short style, so it will clear the valve cover, and has the GM-style hook-up so you don't have to get custom lines made). Make sure you get the right backpad, there are two for GM style lines. The Q-pad has the right hookup, but the hose positions are reversed from factory Third Gen lines. You want the pad that has the suction on the left and discharge on the right (as you look at the pad from the rear).

That setup worked great on a serpentine belt setup, but I don't think you could do it with a driver's side V-belt car. If you want to do the conversion, I would recommend doing the serpentine swap first, then the compressor swap. I've been very pleased with the Sanden swap. It cools great, and engine load is much less than the old R-4 compressor. It's also a lot lighter if you're into keeping track of those sorts of things. The vintage air brackets fit great, but I did have to a layer of washers to set back the compressor slightly before it stopped throwing serpentine belts. That could have just as easily been due to the SBC to BBC serpentine conversion brackets as the compressor conversion bracket though. Let me know if you have any questions. I can take pictures of my setup if you want to see it.

-cal30sniper

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

You also might try calling Vintage Air and see if they have any conversion brackets specifically for a driver's side V-belt R-4 to Sanden conversion. If you can get the brackets, Sanden compressors are all over eBay for around $100. Just search for SD508 and look for a v-belt clutch.

-cal30sniper

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Hey Cal30, sent you a PM requesting those pics!

bwmcam

Cal30_sniper,
Thanks for the info!!

rsmith085

iTrader: (1)

My understanding of the HFC refrigerants like 134a, 410a and 404a(used in freezers) is that they want to consider them a greenhouse gas and thus require you to have a license to be able to purchase them. I agree about the patent thing if 12/502 is so horrible why are other countries still allowed to manufacture it?

Anyways does the Sanden compressor have a built in expansion valve like the newer gm v5 compressors? I hate that my ac cycles on and off it's annoying and makes for some jerky shifting when it kicks on/off mid shift.

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

You're facts and information are contradictory. If only the patent is expiring, it will actually become cheaper to purchase R134a. Right now, any one that manufactures R134a has to pay royalties to DuPont because they hold the patent for R134a. Once the patent expires, anyone can make it without paying a dime to DuPont. Nothing about a patent expiring would mean that you could not buy R134a here in the United States. The only reason you can't get ahold of R12 as easy after its patent expired is because U.S. Law made it illegal to produce or import new supplies of R12. You can still buy and sell it, you just can't import or produce any more.

The only way your scare scenario would work out is if R134a became illegal to produce or import like R12 did. While 1234yf is being billed as an R134a replacement, no one is talking about making R134a illegal as of yet (except for conspiracy theorists).

R134a is and always has been a stopgap measure. R12 was bad for the environment. R134a was a lot better but still not ideal, and wasn't as effective of a cooling agent as R12. R134a was in place long enough for a suitable alternative to be developed (hopefully), that's easier on the environment, and more effective at cooling (and not leaking). 1234yf is supposed to be much better even than 134a. Only time will tell if that is actually the case.

-cal30sniper

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

Also, there is still no reason to not go with R134a. Even though the auto industry is in the process of switching over to 1234yf, it is compatible with all R134a system components, and can even be intermixed (albeit with some loss of cooling). If you properly rebuild your R134a system with good components, it should last over a decade before you start worrying about refilling or topping it off. By that time, if you can't get R134a, you just drain and flush the system, and fill with 1234yf. It's a win-win situation.

The only downside to 1234yf is that it's a mildly flammable gas that requires special equipment to evacuate and charge it (which A/C shops will charge extra for in order to buy the new equipment). That, coupled with the fact that it could be $40-60 a pound means you should definitely be looking at R134a, for cost reasons alone. I just don't see why you wouldn't go with R134a at the present... If you're worried about it, buy a few extra cans while you're at it. It's not like the stuff goes bad sitting on the shelf.

bwmcam

I contacted Vintage Air to find out if they made a bracket for a Sanden conversion to fit an 87 camaro with the compressor on the driver side with V-Belt and they referred me to http://www.alangrovecomponents.com/Catalog.htm.

I will call them tomorrow to see if they carry anything. If I can't find the bracket looks like I will be hunting for a serpentine system. I think Hawks carries them with all the mounting hardware.

bwmcam

Vintage Air does carry a bracket for 87 Vortec or newer cars for the Sanden conversion

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

What is an '87 Vortec? Do you mean v-belt? '88 was the first year for serpentine belts in F-bodies, so any bracket that fits an '87 would also fit an '85 or '86 (all dual-belt cars).

If vintage air made a v-belt setup, it would have to fit '85-87.
The bracket I got fit '88-up.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Probably ought to check your local junkyard or ebay for a serpentine setup. Hawks wants a king's ransom for them!

Billy Decker

Can someone please show me how to wire this. I have an 88 camaro and its been converted to Carb. I have the sanden kit from vintage air. Thanks I would love to see a pic of one wired already as a guide.

mmadden55

Look at the astrovan serpentine setup.

Billy Decker

Where would I find that?

Billy Decker

Please be more specific. Don't know where to find that.

GCrites80s

About 5 years ago, I read that Porsche was looking at switching to CO2 as a refrigerant. I don't know if existing systems would be capable of using it though.

mmadden55

No co2 runs at way too high a pressure. Would need a system designed for it.