bygddy

Then maybe we can refrain from teaching the "next Gen" of hot rodders that they are morons unless they spend AFR money to build an engine?
Maybe we can teach them there are many ways and many different budgets that allow them the fun we all have had or are having now?
Maybe before you trash products that you dont have first hand, or even second hand knowledge of, you simply warn them to do the research and spend their money wisely and in a manner that fits their budget.
Maybe you speak from the experience you had with cars and engines that reflect what the majority of "next Gen" rodders have access to instead of going off about your pie in the sky RED car that honestly means just about zip to anyone here. Save that sht for the bullet.
I'm not saying you have no knowledge to share, nor am I trying to invalidate your opinions, its the manner in which you deliver them, and the fact that for some reason you feel the need to mock anyone who isn't able or willing to use the products you endorse.
At the end of the day there are many ways to enjoy this hobby, and I would like to think the "next Gen" is tech savvy enough to do the research and make an educated choice that fits their budget without buying "junk" parts. Wether its $1800 AFR's or $500 assaults.

bygddy

I also remember him going on a multi page rant about the evils of hand porting heads, and how its useless and foolish waste.....until Speiers became a household name, then that opinion was silenced. I'm an opiniated prck myself, but I'm aware of my limitations and the very small amount of knowledge I actually have.

1gary

Actually this is what I said in the past:

(Quote)
Cast VS Aluminum.If your trying to drop SCR by using a aluminum for todays gas,ok then use them.It is a band-aid fix to a wrong piston selection/poor planing for decking the block.And it is expensive.If your thought is a wt savings on a street driven vehicle,that is just total B.S.because it just doesn't impact it that much if at all.I have been a swap meet vendor for about 20yrs buying at auctions SBC parts.We do have a keen eye while buying the same.For that whole time we have never seen used aluminum sets of heads that did not need work.Bottom line is the aftermarket cast iron sets for the long term are more durable.

Now I haven't changed mid stream on that opinion.I still do insist you get what you pay for in aftermarket aluminum heads in terms a long term use.Cheaper heads don't last s long as the better sets.And the truth is every used sets we have bought for resale needed work.Not major stuff normally we found that out during the inspections we did. As for me and the 383,your gonna see me use RHS iron 180cc runner 72cc cut custom to the SCR I want and the reason is I am projecting yrs of turn key use/miles.

Also for the BBC I am putting together I will be using aftermarket iron heads as well for entirely different reasons.

joshc

iTrader: (1)

We also need to consider these are budget heads and are mostly being used on street cars and your weekend drag racer.
I don't need to spend big $$$$ for heads on a 350hp or 375hp engine.
No one is saying these are the best heads out there, but they sure do look decent and priced great.

1gary

Speiers heads??. Saw two sets that where trying to straighten out and I was not impressed.I did in fact have them in my hands and ran them on a Super Flow bench. Friends machine shop and he asked me to check them out and I agreed with him they aren't worth much.He thought it was himself,but when I confirmed what he had found,well the jury was in then. Around in my area we afterwards heard from a number of guys that are also not happy with them too.

See my partner and me have been doing business for a very longtime and we are tight with a number of machine shops and hot rodder.Some ask for help and some have us fix it.

bygddy

There's not much better then handing a guy a shovel and watching him dig.....congrats Gary, you have officially dug yourself into a hole....a hugely stupid one at that. It would appear that we "your fan club" no longer have to work at discrediting you, you manage that beautifully on your own.
Joker.....your BS meter is officially pegged lol.

1gary

You know what??. AFR's are painted as super expensive. The street heads really are not.

Now these are bare castings but it allows you to add on in the future.

Part number 1160 70 CC chambers 195 cc intake runner: $899/pair

Part number 1165 63 cc chambers 180 cc intake runners $899/pair

Fill them with parts and have the advantage to build on them later.

The other thing is all we have been taking about is AFR's when the Brodix and aluminum RHS heads are fairly priced certainly better than the cheaper sets. I am impressed with Brodix street version heads.They are really nice and again pricing isn't that far out of reach.

See for this O/P and his turbo use,he can if he chooses really get after it with boost and if he considered the three brand names I suggested,never would have to give a thought about head failures.

See with our contacts in machine shops we have seen crack sets of cheap aluminum heads and where normally would be able to fix them,but when you went to fix them the cracks just spread because the forgings was so thin.

Trust me,if there was anyway we could increase our profit margin with lower pricing,both my partner and I would be all in.But your rep is something you can't buy.

jokerZ71

Dang bygddy,that 1 is almost as good as the $1,000's that his shop lost doin free repair work on heads that ppl bought from White's.It took him 5 hrs to dream up his explanation of that 1.I guess you can safely buy any head you want cuz if it breaks,his shop will fix em for free.Hold on....gotta reset my meter.LOL.

jokerZ71

Very well said & I totally agree !!!

1gary

well burned once,learn a hard lesson.That one was all me.Partner was on vacation and came back wanted to hand me my butt.Yeah my decision to take on that job.

jokerZ71

Dang Gary,that story changes a lil bit everytime you tell it.

1gary

It is a huge mistake to suggest I am a lie'er.



And then about this trolling your doing.Ant enough we met on another site,but to then chase after me to this site is abit over the top.

Mod's read this and please correct.

jokerZ71

PLEEZE !!! Don't flatter yourself.

redneckjoe

the heads seem like a decent deal. i've been looking around for some budget oriented, aluminum heads. keeping on a budget theme, can i ask what head bolts or studs you'll be using? and thanx for the excellent review with pics.


on a side note; Gary, 2,000+ posts, and a few years later,...out of curiousity, do you own a third gen? i always see that yellow mini van next to your name and wonder what thats all about?

bygddy

Lmao.....your ego never fails to ammuse me Gary.

jokerZ71

I'M SKEERT !!!!!!!!!!!!

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

OP-
What's your estimated "total cost" in fitting out these heads?
Might I ask what parts you are using for valves, guides, etc?

It seems the general consensus on budget heads is to purchase them bare, but I am wondering after researching the some basic pricing on guides, locks, bla bla that it would be getting very close to the 1G $ mark...

The Profilers have been quoted to me at $1050 bucks , and besides the all-knowing emoticon addicted Gary here, I've never heard anything cross concerning Speier's set up Profilers...

So I'm curious to what one would have in these heads with good gear.

Off topic, but humorous nonetheless, aren't RHS irons cast in New Zealand? Sooo, for someone who's sole original purpose was to bash not buying American speed parts...hmm.

No offense meant, I like RHS quality stuff, but just seems kinda contradictory to me. I get that RHS is quality and these are considered "budget" and/or Chinese (actually there Taiwanese from my research, but apples are still fruit)but for people that get so bent out of shape about not buying American, get real. Koni shocks aren't made here, neither is a lot of stuff.

If the problem is not using quality items, ok I get that. Very understandable. But don't pitch the ole Made-in-USA/pay Americans for American goods at me while your sporting Konis or RHS or iPhones or Continental tires or whatever else that's made elsewhere cause that just makes you look, well foolish.

And I love my country and my State of Tennessee and celebrate the 4th of July just as much as the next good American citizen.

Cheers

project89

iTrader: (1)

valve guides are already fitted and sized , and the seats are also installed and machined when u get them

iirc i paid 150$'s for +.100 2.02/1.60 valves from summit
40 bucks for a set of elgin studs and guideplates
i already had a set of springs locks and retainers
and the valve spring seats were in the 35$ range

im into the heads about 650$'s including the heads themselves , they are setup for .600 lift with a hyd flat or mechanical cam

if u want to take a chance u can buy the heads complete for 575-600 but like u said i recomend buying them bare so u can put or own good springs and compnents on them

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Kinda surprised to hear that. Dont know of anyone really unhappy with his work. One case that was blasted on the net and blown out of proportion but the rest including myself have been happy customers. He does hold some class records with his work and his heads did very well at emc this past year. So the man knows how to setup heads

1gary

It's not about waving a flag and all that.My heart lays with trying to prevent indecent hot rodders from getting hurt.The ones who don't have the money to lose.The ones who as I suggest could benefit from buying good brand name castings and like everything else would have to wait to build them up,but would end up with something as a result.

jokerZ71

There are ppl out there that love hot rodding & want to participate,but,no matter what,or,no matter how long they wait,they won't be able to afford a $1500 set of heads.Maybe not even a $1000 set of heads.That shouldn't keep them from enjoying & participating & ppl like you shouldn't condemn & judge them for using something they can afford.Alot of the problem is that ppl buy these high $ heads,etc,then see a guy making good power with a set of budget heads,possibly even had their doors blown off by 1, & they have to blast the other guy so they don't feel so bad about spending what they did.Not all do this.If you can affoird the best,be my guest,but,don't crap on me becuz I can't,or,becuz I choose not to.Be glad that you can & be happy for me becuz I,m doin what I can & still enjoying it like you.

redneckjoe

well said Joker.
i'm one of those guys that always find myself on a budget. with raising 4 kids, and now 2 grandkids, high dollar heads seem like one of the last things on my list. i'm o.k. with not having the best heads. at least i have a strong running 3rd gen that i can have fun in. i would like to upgrade to some aluminum heads, but they have to fall into my budget.

1gary

Appreciate this reasonable reply.

How about a guy that spends his whole nest egg on a cheap set and it ends up taking out his whole build??. I my mind that just isn't right.

I know you guys have admit you know your not getting the better sets by buying the cheaper sets.But what about those guys that think they are getting the same thing,just cheaper??. That isn't right either.

My concern for this O/P is those castings not being stronger enough for a twin turbo use. That they will crack under the stress. Then leak coolant at a high RPM wiping out his whole engine.

Most successful twin turbo engines involve thousands and thousands of dollars. Alot of it more often than not involves reliability and the trial and error already been done on the parts.

So unlike my history of saving and working extra hard maybe a second job etc,and waiting until you can afford the better parts,if a person is trying to do something that is out of his league,maybe the best advise is to step it down some over using parts that is likely to fail ruining it all.

redneckjoe

doesnt this thread tie into another one about building 1,000hp on a $3,500 budget?

personally, i'd like to see it done.


stop the worrying already. a tire might pop? a lobe might go flat? the oil pump might fail? a bird might hit the car? wtf? geez,...you sound like a woman. the guys not sending the heads back and buying AFRs to stop your worrying. calm down.

bygddy

1. If your spending your entire nest egg building a motor, any motor, then your heads not screwed on straight anyways. There is more then enough research and real world testing out there to make informed choices. As I said before, from AFR to Pro comp and anything in between. For the most part the guys buying these heads are 350hp street cars, rarely anything more, low stress, low rpm. The guys buying them and shooting for big power like the OP are smart enough to know what they are getting into, do you think the OP couldn't have afforded AFR's? I guarentee you he could, that isnt the point....this is an experiment, and somewhat of a lark, he knows that, anyone following the build here or on the other site knows that.
2. Anyone who thinks they are getting AFR "quality" heads for $399.00 should know better, and if they don't, if they didn't spend 30 seconds researching then so be it. There are plenty of guys all over that have flow tested the budget heads, there are plenty of guys with first hand knowledge of which ones work, and which ones don't. What we don't need is guys that see a $399.00 head and having never even seen a pair in person go a rant about forgers, thieves and the idiots who buy them. Btw, Google "anyone using assault heads" and what you will find is the usual idiots lumping them in with first Gen pro comp, or actually confusing them with pro comp, you find a few guys that know a guy, who's cousins first uncle tried a pair of these evil Chinese commie heads and hated them, and then you find the guys that bought them, and say they are clean and a nice casting, or you find a big name reputable head guy that thinks they are a really decent head and with a little work can, and have made big power.
3. This OP is absolutely not concerned with his heads "cracking" under boost lol.
4. And you made your own point here, you have saved and worked hard for the best parts and doing it "right" the first time.....well your stuff is still in pieces, your BBC race car isn't finished, your 383 mini van crank just made it to the machine shop yesterday, and that's been a few years and counting....if you had another car.....maybe a beater third Gen? Dirt cheap 383, assault heads etc etc, while you saved for the "good parts" for your mini van, then your opinion would carry more weight. Instead your just a guy with a huge ego, and an opinion, in front of a keyboard watching guys buying smart and in their budget and enjoying their hobby....while you bench race your life away. A quarter back coach at best.....so let it go.

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

I think the whole point is to prove exactly this statement could be in fact wrong.

The OP seems to think he's found something that can and will handle very close to what a high dollar set of heads can produce.

Face it man. Your problem is that your afraid that he just might prove that everything you preach is dead wrong.

I'm not attacking your intelligence or your experience. But your way of thinking that just because it doesn't have a name brand on it that it's somehow inferior is just wrong.

OP is trying to prove that if you use the proper internal parts on a "good" budget casting that he can yield some extremely good results.

And that just burns you up because you know you can't make him change his or anyone's mind on the matter.

Nobody is sayin that these castings are as good as a premium casting. But they are saying that you can, if done smartly, yield good results.

I, like many others, am very interested in the results. Would I be surprised to find that somehow this casting is just not up to snuff?

No.

But am I or anyone else just going to take your word that they are somehow an inferior and worthless casting just because you say so?

Ahh No. Go back and read some of your posts. You sound very unintelligent and cocky, have been a smart a** from the beginning, and have done nothing but bash something you have never ever ever seen and know absolutely NOTHING about. If you had posted your initial concerns on budget castings and left it at that, you might have gained a little respect from me an others. After all, ther have been issues of such before. But you keep on keepin' on, and just look like a fool.

After going through and researching some of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you don't know squat, but do like to patronize and challenge anyone who thinks different from you. Your one of those "I've done everything and I know it all" type of people that honestly think you do know, but have most definitely proven to me that you don't know diddly about what you are talking about.

So congrats. If you truly do want to just help people, re read all you have posted, make sure you include all the patronizing emoticons, and realize you managed to do the exact opposite from what you intended.

Learn something from this, but you probably already know that, cause you know it all.

project89

iTrader: (1)

im not worried about them cracking , i linked to another thread on page one which shows deck thickness and all sorts of other things on these heads

the casting is plenty strong , theres even pictures of one of these head cut apart into pieces

the only thing im actually worried about is running over my crankshaft/ or breaking it into 2 pieces at some point since my good crank turned out to be bent and i got stuck using a different crank


oh yeah and the only reason i have these heads is cause my ported iron heads had wiped out guides , so for the cost of machine work on the old heads i got heads that flow more at .300 lift then my gm iron heads flowed at .550

thats kind of a no brainer choice right there same cost for either head but one offers about 65 cfm more flow out of the box
thats about a 32% power gain, its actually more then that since the new heads kill the old heads in flow at low lift as well

1gary

Gezzzz you jump on me when I just recently retired from my racing partnership where I was too busy to do anything on my own.

Bench racing??. I think not. Then there are some health issues I posted:

Quote:

Finally with one carpal tunnel left hand still sore and the right hand not heal yet I managed to load my Howards 383 5.7 rod crank in the truck to be balanced.Yes folks it's at the machine shop.To be continued.............


Sooooo,oh well.

To the O/P.It's not just a start up,but a follow up.

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

No fear mongering here. 100% personal experience.

Full disclosure: I'm an automotive machinist at a shop which does nothing but high performance work. I am a dealer for Dart, Brodix, AFR. I have seen more than a handful of these offshore heads with significant problems which led to collateral damage which is why we wont install them on an engine here due to the liability.

The issue is not in the design. There's plenty of performance to be had if the heads are in the hands of someone who knows how to build a set of heads (bowl work, valve job, mild port, etc.). The issue is with the materials used and the quality of the workmanship. Yes, I have seen the seats fall out of these types of heads. I've seen spark plugs blow out because the material is soft. I have seen when the seats are not concentric to the guides. I have seen when the valve angles are off. I have seen where the deck surface is off or crooked by .020" from end-to-end. I have seen intake manifolds that wouldn't seal because the heads were inaccurately machined. I have seen sales reps traveling across their territory to buy back the heads before they are installed onto an engine because there's been so many returns. People not in the industry for the most part are not privy to this information. Contrary to popular belief, all knowledge is not found on internet forums.

Are they all like this? No. There are plenty of consumers out there with these heads bolted on and running just fine. My point is that you cannot compare them to a Dart or Brodix, etc. simply because they're a copy. You get what you pay for. I understand that not everyone has the money for a "name brand" heads but you must be aware that the quality is not the same and you are assuming a risk. Whether the risk:reward ratio is acceptable is up to you.

So now lets breakdown the cost:
$400 heads
$250 valves, springs, locators
$40 seals
$100 studs and guideplates
$250 valve job
$120 mill/resurface
$200-300 to finish the bowls and chambers to make them comparable to a real Dart.
Total of $1400 or so. Not counting shipping and the hassle of running back and forth to your machine shop.

OR you can buy a set of assembled Brodix Race Rite 200's ready to go for around $1500. Is the risk really work a measly $100?

bygddy

If you have seen more then one or 2 sets of ASSAULT RACING heads in your shop, and they have had the issues your describing,..,then I stand corrected, and will happily shut my pie hole. I'm aware of the issues with Pro comp, and primarily the early sets, and many eBay companies used them under different names. There are many first hand stories of guys having all the issues you listed. This is the reason pro comp has the reputation they do. Their product has improved in recent years, but as they say, once bitten...... but the review here, the one that Gary went on a rant about and essentially called the OP and anyone else using them a moron, is for ASSAULT RACING heads.....nothing more. I guarantee that Gary hasn't ever touched a pair first hand, and is speaking either from internet hearsay or from previous dealings with a bad product such as the first run of pro comp heads. The fact that he suddenly had a "couple sets of Speiers heads" at his buddies shop, and that his buddy wanted Gary's input on how shtty they were "the verdict was in" says enough to discount most if not all of his opinions. I do appreciate your input, and am always happy to hear from someone in the business with a hell of a lot more first hand knowledge then most of us, especially when its delivered intelligently without the assumption that were all morons. That being said..... you are a dealer for AFR, Brodix and Dart..... I would naturally expect you too promote your product over an offshore copy, regardless of the quality.

bygddy

And to add to this, I agree with the "you get what you pay for" ....if anyone thinks they are getting the quality, the warranty or the performance of an AFR head for a bolt on and go price of $599 then they are delusional. But reviews like this help the guy on a budget make a smart choice, I would have any casting checked before use regardless of what you spend, if buying offshore heads then absolutely buy them bare and build with quality parts. I have been on both sides of this. I purchased a set of offshore heads a few years ago, they came assembled for $700 bucks, (my gamble) and in had no failures, last year i had a bit more to spend, so I bought Profilers, both sets of heads were on a 355, the motor with the offshore heads had more cam, more compression, better exhaust, similar vehicle weight, same converter and gearing. Yet the motor with the Profilers was much much stronger.....i attribute this to "getting what I paid for" .....and yet I would buy the offshore heads again if it was all I could afford. It may not have performed as well as it could have, but it DID perform, I did drive it hard and often and didn't spend the season watching everyone else have fun while I internet bashed everyone foolish enough to buy "junk".... I bought what I could afford at the time, and enjoyed it for what it was.

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

First off, I don't intend to "internet bash" or get into ego contests with anyone here. I have nothing to prove and simply wish to impart some technical information on this thread based on my personal experience.

I cannot say with 100% certainty that they were "Assault" heads, but here's how it works. These offshore, no-name companies produce cylinder heads and for the most part they're marketed towards the big warehouses who supply engine builders. PBM and LPC are the two big ones you may have heard of. I can buy them from the warehouse and market them as "Tony's Racing Heads" just like some guy can buy them to sell on eBay as "Assault Racing Heads". Just like store brand stuff you buy at your grocery store. Over the years these warehouses have had dozens of different "budget" heads that they sold. The ProComps were among the first and there have many since. So while I may not have experience with the "Assault" heads from this particular seller, I am certain that I've had these heads from the same source just under a different name.

Like I said it all boils down to risk:reward. I personally prefer to spend a few extra dollars and KNOW what I've got. I don't want to my fingers and hope that the offshore heads are cast with a consistent, quality alloy and go through QC process.

Another thing I've alluded to in my previous post was that the price is not much cheaper in the long run. The $400 price tag is enticing but when you look at the big picture and what it takes to bolt them onto an engine, you're saving $100 or so over the Race Rite's.

bygddy

I'm not discounting anything your saying, but your making the assumption that the budget head will need repairs and additional machining when your comparing them to the price of Brodix heads. That isn't always, or maybe even isn't often the case, as you stated earlier, there are plenty of motors running around happily with offshore heads on them, mine included 30000 hard miles later. I could afford $700 heads at the time, so that's what I bought. This year Im looking at a build similar to the OP's....but it will get Profilers, because its what I can afford. (We can now debate my eBay GT45 that's going to be used )

bygddy

And I, as well as anyone else I'm sure, appreciate the level headed, first hand advise you took the time to share with us.
The "internet bashing" bashing comment was directed at Gary directly....so I apologize if it sounded like an accusation

Dave

1gary

Said better than I did and thank you very much.

Gary

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

The additional machining that I included is required for a direct comparison. The name brand heads come out of the box with a superior valve job, finished bowls and precisely machined deck surfaces. The offshore heads come with a half-assed 3-angle valve job (go ahead and try to lap a valve on 'em ), rough cast bowls and the decks are not true. My inclusion of those methods is so we have a fair comparison, not apples to oranges.

Please don't mistake my comments, I don't mean to condemn the use of these heads in any way. I am active in the industry and recognize that not everyone can afford or justify $2000 cylinder heads. As I read the OP, it seemed like there was a direct comparison between cheap heads and name brand heads. It could easily be misconstrued by an uninformed consumer. My advice to customers is always to purchase the best you can afford, which 99% of the time is not top-shelf stuff. If these fit your budget and you're willing to assume the associated risks then go for it. I just didn't want people thinking they're getting $500 Dart heads.

1gary

Dave,

Really we have been over this before.No internet bashing going on from me.It is a sincere desire from me to protect consumers from dishonest marketing from companies with off brand heads and the experiences we have seen from our end of the business.Wither you chose to believe it or not our resale business and racing has come in contact with brand name and off shore parts for yrs.Where we too have tried both in racing and resale and my advise comes from that.Also I do my level best to keep up with info in the trades of high performance business in sources of where companies are getting castings.That is key information critical to my partner and my self on the purchase and resale parts.My history in dealing in the used resale of parts has proven brand name parts have a greater reliability.Most consumers especially in street only vehicles buying low dollar parts don't have the experiences to compare exactly how much they are leaving on the table by buying those low dollar parts.It is a unfair advantage those companies take in their marketing to those consumers.The other part of that is companies that par take in these crazy comic book tests like in Hot Rod and alike not telling the complete story.Some that try to convert race only parts to street use where there are many.many down sides to that,let alone using low dollars parts who has a reliability issue from the get-go.

This O/P's other titled thread has the same trend as those comic book articles tests.It was yrs ago I had a settlement out of court with one of those magazines when I was more naive following a article they published which was found to be totally B.S. and costing me thousands of dollars.That was the start of my research along with my partner's encouragement our business needed BOTH OF US to be on top of it for our resale business.

I don't have any other way to explain this to you or Joker.I promise my motives is not to be a internet hero to any one.It does take abit of effort for me to type out all this given my recent carpal tunnel surgery and both hands being really sore.

project89

iTrader: (1)

cant say it goes for all but these heads had a nice valve job on them out of the box , i couldnt have done a nicer job myself , and yes i have the machinery required to do the valve job , the bowl area requires minimal cleanup , 5 mins tops with an 80 grit sanding roll on the intake side. the ex side could use a bit more cleanup under the seats but its not mandatory.

i checked the deck and mounting faces for the intake and ex manifolds/headers , all 3 are true lenght wise and width wise

i didnt want to post somone elses pictures but i have the tread linked on page one

these are not ur typical budget heads by any means





i have seen exactly what ur talking about on some of the other budget heads, some sets are good some sets are bad and need a ton of work to be useable , and others are downright unuseable

bygddy

I understand the need to offer advise based on your experience in the past, I also understand the frustration associated with some of the advertising out there. Case in point, I have used Skip White's stuff in the past, I know guys that have used there products regularly, and most have been problem free, some even exceed expectations, the ones that have had issues were dealt with professionally and quickly. All that being said, to the uninformed or niave, Skip's advertising sounds like some of his products are world beaters....when let's be honest, they are offshore knock off's that fit a budget. But he is there to make money and sell product. So we research, and we talk to people with first hand knowledge of the product in question, and make a desicion from there. The assault racing heads don't lay claim to being a Dart copy, they don't advertise that, they don't market as such. The fact that clearly they were reverse enginered from a Dart product and are a much cheaper head then an original is what it is. I don't think anyone here claims they are a better head, they may in fact have the same flow numbers as the dart original, but as stated earlier, there are more factors here then flow numbers....your morals can guide you as to whether or not your comfortable using a "copy" of an American product, I personally have no issue with it whatsoever, its my money, I will spend it where I choose..I also have thick skin, not much bothers me, but to the guys that are shopping and doing research for a budget head, I would like to think they can make an informed choice on a product based on its performance, and not based on someone going on a rant about "forgers" and "thieves" followed by a bunch of finger wagging emoticons telling us were dumb. As a rule I discount your stories regarding your business and your race cars based solely on the fact that I believe there's a lot more, or less to the story then your willing to share. But it is clear you care about the hobby and enjoy cars and do have a working knowledge of most of the things you post about so I, as well as others pay attention, and filter out what we deem as bllsht and move on. But your rants about the evils of all things not AFR or RHS are what I, and others take offence to, there are other choices. I'm aware of your recent surgery, and previously wished you luck and a quick recovory, I do the same here. There's no sense continuing this further, were not going to agree on much lol...so go rest your weary hands. I have a ball game to get to with my kid.....

bhays

So has anyone purchased these and used them with a TPI? I am really interested, but they would need to work with my TPI...

project89

iTrader: (1)

its really iffy of a stock tpi intake will seal up the ports , when i mocked mine up it looked like it would seal up but just barley . for a 100% peace of mind i would recomend the vortec tpi base .

but for the same price as the vortec tpi base u could buy an vortec hsr which would be a much better intake

i am using a vortec hsr with mine

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If these are dart copies then why do they have a raised runner face and need a vortec manifold?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

cant really make a call on the valve job until you put some valves in it and see where they are landing/sealing up. also, the guides need to have the right clearance.... so check that too.
gotta get an intake gasket to work with them. i would like to see a pic of a 1206 on the head.
then once you get the valvetrain on there, i would like to see how the rockers land on the valves (if using guideplates).

project89

iTrader: (1)

i have that all done already , i can grab some pics tongiht as im going to the shop to assemble the long block , only thing i do not have is a set of pushrods , i didnt order any since im going to have to measure them first to make sure i get the right length

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

nice! if everything works out good for you i may try a set!

project89

iTrader: (1)

its going to be late i prolly wont get over to the shop till around 10pm , should have some pics up in the morning for ya

bhays

Crud. Wish I knew for sure. My base is a triple chrome from Street and Performance and I really need to use it. I'll definitely stay tuned to see if anyone goes that way. I hate to order them without knowing for sure.

project89

iTrader: (1)

bhays it will not fit , i have some pics posted on page 2 of my build thread i posted today

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...00-353sbc.html

it deff needs a vortec base to use the tpi , or another intake

project89

iTrader: (1)

the dart heads i belive also require a raised runner intake , they just arent drilled for a vortec manifold


pro header prolly added the vortec mounting to keep from getting sued
i like the idea of being able to use a standard raised runner or vortec manifold

bhays

Thanks for the info. That's disappointing but I appreciate the pictures. Well, shoot.