Matthew91-Z28

Well, this is not for our cars, at least not YET.

http://www.stainlesssteelbrakes.com/...maro&year=1981


And $390 for 2-piston calipers plus pads for a direct bolt on brake upgrade is not bad at all.

Well, I emailed the tech dept there asking if an engineering plan for something similar for 3rd gens was in the works and am waiting for their reply. I told them I could easily get a large number of people here in line for group purchase. But....I'll just have to see what the verdict is on their future plans.

I don't know about most people here, but I can't afford a $900-1200 1LE brake upgrade and this seems like it would be a fine alternative.

Anyway...I'll keep you posted.

SLP_GTA

iTrader: (1)

I thought about it also, the general consenses is cost verses performance
390.00 SSB calipers
180.00 cross drilled sloted stock rotors
70.00 braided brake lines
640.00 total

Andy or Steves 1LE complete kit around 900.00. For 260.00 difference the choice is clear

BUT

Its a nice option, but I dont think allot of people are going to go this route

PS I think there a topic already posted about this, you might want to do a search for more info

Matthew91-Z28

they do make them for thirdgens??

And I thought I was paying attention to the boards!

I had no idea, as they don't list them in jegs nor on their website.

True....I guess it would work better financially if you kept the stock rotors, making it a $440 difference. Of course, the 1LE package is better. But if you're short on cash.........


I just bought a set of stainless braided lines for my front disk/ read drum setup (Earls). Do you knopw of the top of your head if these would work with the SSB calipers since they are "OEM replacement" pieces?

Matthew91-Z28

Here is the tech reply for anyone interested:



Matthew,
I have a 2-piston 38mm caliper to replace the GM metric or
"G" body calipers which will fit the 82-92 Camaro and the
Monte carlo's and so on. I have not yet received final pricing on
that caliper but it should be very close to the $395.00 mark. Right
now I am doing the final testing on it and if everything goes good I
will have it ready for production by the end of May or early June.
Regards
Bill Cummings
Sales / Technical Assistance
Stainless Steel Brakes Corp.
800-448-7722 x-133

RMK

It's a nice option. But the problem for me is that you are still stuck with the girly 10.5 inch rotors.

RMK

Matthew91-Z28

yeah true ....aren't the 1LE maybe an inch more?

Look, I'm not discrediting the 1LE setup at all. Nor am I saying that this is better than 1LE performance wise.

If you want 1LE performance, and you have $900-1200 to spend, plus a new alignment, then I will not try and persuade you at all from not doing it. In fact, I envy you if you can do that.

This is strictly for those of us who want better braking than the crappy stock single pistons and who have a limited amount of cash to spend and need to spend it wisely.

I mean you could blow $4000 for a 400hp engine. But if its your daily driver why? Unless it means producing even more embarrassment for mustangs; and then its worth every penny.

nikh23

as for your question on the earl's brake lines, teh front disk/rear drum kit is a 3 piece line kit that comes with two lines for the front disk brakes and one line for the center of the car. the two lines that go to the rear drums are already hard lines so they don't need to be replaced. The front disk/rear disk kit comes with 5 pieces, which is 2 for front, 2 for back, and that center piece

Momar

From what I have read, dual piston calipers doesnt necisarrily give much better braking. It just pushes the pad out more evenly so it wears and heats up more evenly. This can reduce brake fade but wont upgrade your stopping power a ton.

Ben

CrazyHawaiian

SSBC makes alot of stuff that will work with our cars. They even have a 2" drop spindle kit for our cars but it costs around $1500. I'm currently getting infomration on installing their billet mechanical ebrake system on my 88 B/W disc rear. I needed an aftermarket ebrake solution because drifting requires the use of the ebrake quite often to correct understeer while sliding through a turn. So far they have the best ebrake setup I've seen thats not related to the calipers at all. Makes it much easier to freshen up the ebrake setup. This will also allow you to use calipers that were designed for the front on the rear. So suddently with SSBC it might be possible to run dual piston calipers front and rear for ALOT cheaper than anything else on the market. Did you know they make alot of custom stuff too? They make front/rear 14" rotor 4/6 piston caliper setups that require 18" wheels. Pretty nuts.

oldblueZ

For those that don't know, SSBC makes a 1LE kit for our cars for around $1000 or just under that and you don't have to worry about modifying your spindle either. I think they might even come with stainless brake cables, but I could be wrong.

-Jesse

Matthew91-Z28

Actually the 1LE kit is $1195 and you'd prob have to get an aligment after right?

As far as I know the diff b/t the 1LE and stock is the rotor size (10.5 vs. 12) and the number of pistons (1 vs. 2). The question is, how much difference in stopping distance does the bigger rotor make?

We need some info. How much is stopping power increased (measured in how many less feet it takes to stop at a certain speed) in each of these scenarios:

1) Stock disc front w/ rear drum
2) Stock 4-wheel disc
3) 1LE
4) Stock front disk w/ slotted rotors
5) Stock 4-wheel disk w/ slotted rotors
6) Otherwise stock w/ the SSBC dual caliper package


Anyone know a good place to gather this info? All we really hear on the boards about brake upgrades is what other people have 'heard'. We are all about informed decisions. If we could get this data, or at least some of it, it would much easier for everyone to know what they are buying before they buy it, and comparisons b/t different brake setups would be much easier, and less money would be thrown at parts that you "heard" would be good.

I can find out #6 via SSBC tech. As far as the others, I need help. Anyone willing?

Thanks

Dr G

A group purchase on this product would be a very tempting proposition - I'm just a little apprehensive regarding how much braking improvement you would feel. Would you be better off in the long-term saving for the 1LE / Baer set-up?

Has anyone on this board driven another car with this product both before and after such a conversion?

85rocker

Great thread man ! Just what I was looking for. FYI: I am one of those don't want to spend $1000 + on some better braking up front. $395 is reasonable.

Matthew91-Z28

I just want to make this thread as informative as possible.

I wrote SSBC to see if they had any data regarding stopping distance for 1. their version of a 1LE, 2. their slotted rotors, and 3. the dual piston calipers.


That's exactly what I'm talking about and exactly the same question almost everyone has and exactly what the point of this thread is. i.e How much measurable difference is there between different setups?

There are other variables though that go into braking. By that I mean, fade, feel, etc. Those are a little more difficult to define, so I say we just stick with the the distance it takes to stop at a certain MPH (that is if we can even find it).


As soon as I get info back from SSBC tech, I'll post it here. In the meanwhile, can anyone get/find the stopping ability of the stock disc/drum and stock disc/disc setup so we can at least have BASELINE VALUES to make comparisons with?


As far as what YOU would be better off with is something that is completely up to you. If you want 1LE perf, then I would not recommend getting anything less. Save up for it. But if you want something in between at a reasonable price (call it "mini-1LE") then this is the thread to pay attention to.

Just exactly what "in between" means performance wise, is the ONLY purpose this thread serves.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

By the time you get done buying those calipers and some new rotors, bearings etc, you could have pretty much bought a brand new Aerospace Components brake kit, still around the same size as stock rotors, but I believe they come with a 2 piece hub, and 4 piston calipers.

91 blue bird

Good idea. Using stopping distance as a metric is what all the car mags do so why not us ?

Some years ago I read The 60-0 stopping distance for the 1989 IROC-Z 5.7 with 4 wheel disc brakes was 126 feet. I remember this because when the '93s came out they were tested 60-0 in 119 feet (I also remember the Ford 5.0 was 146 feet 60-0). I'll try to find more details.

91 blue bird

So post their web-page, give us some prices, show us exactly what you are talking about ? I would like to see their stuff.

Matthew91-Z28

1.) I believe the setup you refer to is listed as "TRACK use only".

2.) There are a number of things you can spend money on for your brakes, including buying an Aerospace Components kit. We can all agree on that. But the POINT OF THIS THREAD is to define, for example, exactly how installing an Aerospace Component kit will affect braking. Until we define that, its just hearsay. Do you have knowledge how much of an increase in stopping power is added over stock systems?

3.) How do I know that an Aerospace component kit provides better braking over SSBC 2-piston calipers, or how it compares to 1LE? So if I spent $1200 on a 1LE kit that performs the same as Aerospace kit, then I just wasted $400 that I could have spent elsewhere on my car.

4.) I'm glad you brought up this brake kit. Its just another to add to our list. If you get time, call up the vendor and find us some details.

RMK

I'm off to work. But before I go here's what I found so far from old magazine articles:

Muscle Car Review, May 1987

Brakes- Power assisted 10.5" vented disc front and rear

Braking
30-0- 31 ft.
45-0- 57 ft.
60-0- 124 ft.

Peak braking G from 60-0
1.048 G


Car was an 87 IROC-Z

Robert

Matthew91-Z28

allright...now we are rolling. Hopefully if we gather enough info, we can produce an article for the TECH pages.

So far we got some good baselines:

1). 89 IROC 4-wheel disc: 60-0 stopping dist = 126ft.
2). 87 4-wheel disc (10.5 rotors) 60- 0 stop dist = 124 ft.
3). and for further comparison, '93 60-0 stop dist = 119 ft.


anyone know the rotor dia on the 89 IROC?

Matthew91-Z28

SSBC was not too helpful when I called. They were only able to tell me that stopping dist would be decreased 5-10% w/ their 1LE kit (which incl slotted rotors). So can go so far as to say that stopping distance would be dereased from 125 ft(avg baseline) to 119 - 113 ft (difference of 6.25-12.5 ft)?

I would have thought more. By using Earls stainless braided lines, they claim a decrease of 18 ft from an 80-0 MPH (in a 1993 toyata supra w/ ABS).

keep digging.

Matthew91-Z28

OK called Baer...they were more than ready to help.

They used a 1991 Z28 (4-wheel disk) and compared stock braking to braking after installation of the Baer Track system (13 in dia rotor + 2-piston calipers).

The average stock braking over 5 trials from 60-0 was 196 ft (1st trial being 149ft and last trial being 185).

The average Track System braking over 5 trials was 120 ft (1st trial being 119ft and very predictable values over the next 4 trials to reflect much less fading. In fact the last trial was 126ft.)

I asked how multiple pistons affected braking: More pistons = More brake modulation control (i.e when diving into a corner you'll know exactly how much to depress the brake pedal for more efficient braking and less over braking).

I asked about how rotor dia affected braking: Evidently this is where almost all of the braking power comes from. Bigger dia = more torque. Wonder if anyone has adapted the bigger g-body calipers that hold 12 in rotors and single piston calipers to f-bodies?

I'm sure none of this is news to most of you, but I included it anyway.

RMK

Matt,

89 has the same size fronts as the 87 IROC, 10.5 inches. The only rotors that were different were the 12 inch 1LEs.

I like the Baer set-ups. Problem is, with the 13 inch front I don't think my stock 87 IROC wheels will fit over them even with the cooling fins ground off. Which means I would be limited to a 12 inch system.

I'm going to call Baer and get them to send me a template for this.

Also, what is important to me as well as the price of the kit, it the price of replacement rotors. I e-mailed Thunder Racing a while back about replacements and I got this in return:

"Replacement rotors will run $270(Sport), $290(Track) and the pads will be $109 for either system."

That is the price for EACH rotor. This is what makes the 1LE even more appealing to me.

Good discussion.

Robert

Matthew91-Z28

Thanks for the info RMK.

I'm beginning to think as you do about the 1LE appeal. From the lack of info, as well as conflicting data, I'm finding on various setups, its starting to look like 1Le is the better all-round choice. Good point about replacement piece costs. I had not thought about it.

I'm going to call about one more kit:

The wilwood heavy duty kit w/ 4-piston dynalite calipers and 10.75 in rotors. ($613). Can't tell if new spindles are needed or not. Will find out tomorrow.

one thing I'd really like to know though is if slotted rotors are worth it or not.

Anyway.....

RMK

I think they are more for looks than anything else. From what I've read the slots and the drilled rotors were introduced back when pads released copious amounts of gas. The slots and holes simply vented the gasses to allow the pad not be be cusioned with the gasses inbetween the pad and the rotor. With newer pad technolody gasses are reduced from what they once were.

I've seen pics of drilled rotors crack around the holes. I've also heard that pad wear is increased slightly with the slotted rotors as well.

Simply put. Unless I see hard facts that the slots do anything appart from look fancy I'm not getting them.

Robert

toddlsf

Hopefully, I'll have an alternative to the brake situation soon. C5 brakes. I have all the pieces, but haven't put them on my car yet. I had brackets made, and turned down my rotors, to make a hub. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do any testing for a little while either. I am also putting a direct port nitrous intake on my car too. The good thing about the C5 brakes, is that it uses all factory pieces except for my brackets. I priced everything new from gmpartsdirect.com and it was around $500. But, a lot of the C5 guys are changing rotors and putting Z06 calipers on their cars. That's how I got my rotors and calipers. I am going to try to get one side together this weekend. Then, I'll have some pictures.
Let me know if you guys are interested. If the response is good, I'll offer the brackets for sale.
Todd

Matthew91-Z28

Yes Absolutely.

Let me get this staight. Our rotors come w/ the hub basically built into the rotor. This is not the case w/ C5 rotors? So basically, you turn the 3rd gen rotor down to the hub and can reuse it everytime you have to replace the C5 rotor?

And the spindles: Do you need spindles from a C5. Is the front suspension setup the same on those vettes? i.e spindles attach the same way they on our cars? Are the C5 spindles like 1LE spindles?

I am really frustrated w/ the stock brakes. Whats crazy is that GM was making ABS on the 89-91 grand prix. What happened to f-bodies during those years? Sad they could not adapt it.

This may be a dumb question, but do bigger brake setups w/ mutliple piston calipers prevent lock-up more? Or is it easier to lock them up. I was coming to a light this morning....streets were wet....light turned yellow and I was going to blow thru it, but there was a cop there. Not enough time to pump the brakes so I ended up sidewise in the middle of the intersection with this cop just staring at me. Oops!

toddlsf

I'm not an expert on brakes, but I've done what I can. My setup starts with a third gen spindle. I cut the ears off and tapped the holes as you would with the 1LE setup. Then, I had the bracket made that bolts to the spindle. Then the stock C5 caliper carrier and caliper bolt to the bracket. I turned my stock rotors into hubs, so the C5 rotor just slides on. The setup looks like it will work really well. I will hopefully get one side on so you guys can take a look. Unfortunately, it will be a little while until I can road test it.
Todd

RMK

Todd,

Looking forward to seeing these pictures.

Momar

I dissagree here. I would rather have better breaks, but dont want anti-lock breaks. I would rather be in full control of my breaks.

Ben

toddlsf

Here's a link to a thread I started about my brakes.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=175533

Matthew91-Z28

But would you not have better control by actually being able to steer around obstacles during braking instead of locking up and sliding right into them?

Momar

Not if you can drive, and know how to feel when the brakes are going to lock up. How many race cars do you see with antilock breaks?

Ben

kfoley

That's why I don't like ABS, you don't have full control. Like said above, you can tell when the brakes are going to lock up and you can compensate for that by easing up whereas with ABS it would pulse for you, which you might not want. That's why I don't like driving our new truck in winter, you have less control in a slide than I would in my camaro.

AGood2.8

Only the ultimate F1 race cars for starters......Its not your mama's family sedan ABS system though.

Momar

Ok, fine. I still wouldnt want them. Also, like you said, I am sure it is not like what we would have had the option of having. Also, I was talking to a friend and he said that there was an article(I think in car and driver) where they tested the stopping distance on a BMW with the anti loc breaks and then disabled them and tried again. They were able to stop quite a bit quicker without them. The main reason for them on the street is to many people panic and try to press the pedal down as hard as they can and lock them up. If you keep calm and pay attention to what you are doing you can stop as well or better than if you have antilock.

Ben

AGood2.8

Primitive ABS setups that come on 98% of cars I would greatly agree with you- heck I disabled the rear ABS on my Chev truck years ago and also install rear disc- You hook it back up the ABS and it kills the stopping power from 60mph by about 50ft . The Active handling ABS systems like on the new Vettes are incredible, one would be crazy to disable one of these systems

Momar

Well unfortunately I wont have to make the decision on the Vette right now because there is no way I could afford a new Vette lol. Anyway, what makes those setups so much better?

Ben

Matthew91-Z28

Once again I am enlightened.

As someone here said once before: ANtilock brakes are for soccor moms who don't know how to brake.

I'll prob feel better about my brakes as soon as I get them fixed. Both rear drums have bad wheel cylinders and need to be trashed in favor of disc setups. And the front right caliper has a somewhat rusted piston. Grrrr.

RMK

Matt

Any info on that wilwood heavy duty kit w/ 4-piston dynalite calipers and 10.75 in rotors that you were looking into? $613 isn't so bad for that kit, although I would like a larger rotor. C5 kit looks interesting, just waiting to hear if the stock IROC wheels will clear the 12.5 in rotors.

Any idea what direction you are going in with your brake choice?

Robert

Matthew91-Z28

At this point I'm more confused than I was before

Right now, its between the 1LE aftermarket or the Baer sport kit. I'm looking into both. The baer looks really good but I'm looking into cost of replacement rotors. But, the 1LE is tried and true.

I think I'm going to wait until after my new engine gets installed and see how much $$ I have left.

What about you?

BretD 88GTA

The last time I talked with Wilwood, they did not offer a "Street/Road Race" type kit for our cars. Supposedly that was going to change, but I haven't seen any new kit materialize.

The "Heavy Duty" kit they make for our cars is offered primarily as a "drag race" kit. Wilwood does not recommend doing any type of road racing with it. The 4th gens of course get all the options.

Another 3rd gen owner I know put togther a very nice brake system using Wilwood parts, but it was a costly endevour. Wilwood would not sell him the individual components he was looking for. Instead, he had to buy multiple kits to get the pieces he wanted. In the end, he has a pretty sweet brake set up, but he also has a bunch of costly leftover parts he didn't need.

I opted to go with the 1LE setup. After pieceing togther all the parts I'm in for about the cost of a Baer kit. Maybe a tad more. However, I also had all my parts powder coated or zinc plated so I feel I came out ahead. My cost also includes a new GM master cylinder and prop. vavle, which Baer does not include.

RMK

BretD,

How much of difference did you nitice with the 1LE up front?



Matt,

Let me know how mcuh you are quoted for replacement rotors. I'm edging towards the 1LE, or maybe the C5 thing that is currently being done by todd. I'll have to wait and see how that goes.

Robert

BretD 88GTA

I don't have the set-up on the car yet. I'm still waiting on some new Goodridge brake lines to come in. I do expect a big improvement.