skinny z

I've now heard more than a couple of stories about the teflon in a braided steel brake flex line deteriorating over time. There has been a reference to santioned racing (like NHRA) asking for date stamped parts much like seat belts and harnesses.
I'm not racing in a sanctioned class however I don't want to invest in the braided lines if they'll require replacement in 4 or 5 years. I would think if they're DOT approved there shouldn't be an issue but these stories have raised a few questions.
Any comments or experiences?

alloy

iTrader: (16)

I'm going on 8 years now with my braided front lines. So no problems for me yet with them.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

I've been running my rears for six years, the fronts for perhaps eight or so without issues. Curious, I did a quick net search and found the following--for what it's worth:

http://www.type2.com/library/brakes/teflon.htm

JamesC

Doom86

Do not use Russel's steel braided hoses. I bought a set my self to replace the failed rubber one's on the car and they gave me a slight pulse in the pedal and under hard braking severe caliber hopping. Replacing them with rubber hoses the brakes were back to "normal".

After they started messing up I did a bit of research on them and found some really disturbing information. When I first saw them I thought the part the banjo bolt goes through was a bit thin for the amount of stress that section is under. What I found out was nearly all bad and as I suspected they are prone to busting at that joint.

Earl's steel braided look really nice, the metal at the banjo bolt is a thick block and I couldn't find 1 bad review of them, unlike the Russel's where I could only find 1 good review after hours of search TGO and the internet.

Gumby

Id think the problem with em all cept teflon is they use a thin rubber inner linner, and when it comes to just the OEM rubber ones its that linner that fails, the hose will look fine on the outside but the inner linner comes lose over time and causes a temp or perm blockage, causing havoc.

Putting steel braind over a rubber hose will not stop that.

Dunno about the flex issue, brake hoses are so thick, now on motorcycles, the brake hoses are thin wall all around n bennfit from the steel to stop flex.

Steel brained ones do look nice but ddunno how much better its gonna be or will it really last longer as with car ones, its the inner linner that always fails first on me.

Though Id run stainles covered rubber if I had spare cash and was doing the brakes already.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

I thought I'd read somewhere that Earls has discontinued making lines for our cars. Ed used to sell them, but they're not listed on his site or Spohn's for that matter.

JamesC

skinny z

So the question remains. Rubber OEM equivalent (from NAPA) or stainless braid w/ teflon?
I did find these on Miller's website. It doesn't specify the manufacturer.

http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/i107.html

http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/i194.html

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

I like the latter. I'd purchase again based on my experience with them. Is there that much difference between the two? I have some doubts, but even if the difference is, say, 10 feet at 70 MPH, that difference could prevent an accident. (IIRC, Earls claimed 18' at 80 MPH)

JamesC

skinny z

I'm inclined to go the braided route myself. I suppose it's a matter of buying top quality goods to avoid some of the problems mentioned in preceeding posts.
Are you familiar with the product that Miller sells? He doesn't list a manufacturer in the links I posted previously.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Sorry, I'm not.

JamesC

Doom86

Good question JamesC whenever I was replacing the russel's crap I couldn't find Earl's for our cars anywhere. I had a guy at Jeg's looking for me since they carried Earl's parts and the guy kept swearing he had seen them but couldn't find it so you are probably right. That's why I went back to rubber, I couldn't find any other steel braided.

If you don't want to take my advice on Russell's braided garbage at least do your self a favor and for it and see what you find. There's bound to be a few who've had success but I honestly think in all my searching only 1 guy who owned them said they were good.

Gumby

Its not gonna be anything special, should be a 100 GM cars with the same lines n fittings size.

We go through this in the motorcycle forum all the time.

Folks call up a dealer n say I need a piston n rgins for a 82 750 Virago and they say nope can't get it and then come asking for help.

I tell em to call up totalseal and say I need a pistons of this size, pin hight, bore.... and a set of rings with these spec's and walla its on its way.


Look for the parts by length and fitting size on each end, stop asking for 3rd gen parts.

skinny z

That's the plan seeing as the listings for 3rd gen parts has disappeared.
It's much easier when all the searching is done for you. Less chance of making a mistake too considering that most of my stuff is mail order and returns are a pain.
I'll have to search for the proper fitting sizes (which I have stashed somewhere in my car stuff file) and determine if the upgrades to LS1 calipers on the front have a changes from an OEM 3rd gen setup. IIRC, the banjo bolts remain the same. I see that Jegs and Summit both carry Earl's although all I'm seeing at first glance are AN style fittings rather than the traditional flare.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

IIRC, the 1LE lines are longer than standard OE, so I'd imagine the LS1 is different as well.

JamesC

skinny z

I've kept your 1LE upgrade posts in my files (dated 2004!). Excellent photos of the rear setup which I hope mine will eventually look like. 1LE rears with LS1 fronts for me though.
Looks like more searching is needed to nail down the front flex lines. I may have to call Ed Miller again to get the low down. Perhaps he'll divulge the manufacturer of the braided lines he lists.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Classic Tube carries SS line sets for our cars:

www.classictube.com

I've used their AN SS lines and found them to be rugged.

Can also use -3 AN lines, banjo's, and AN to SAE or bubble adapters.

RBob.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Good to know.

JamesC

Doom86

Good find RBob. It looks like they also sell steel braided brake hoses for our cars too. Brand is "Stopflex", and a bit more costly then Russells but probably worth it. There's not any pictures of them, my only concern was how they transition from steel braided to the solid fitting the banjo bolt goes through (sorry don't know what that part is called). The Russell's hoses I have are very weak looking in that area for the amount of stress it's under.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Just so you guys know, Goodridge also makes a kit for our cars. Goodridge has an excellent reputation in the car community.

skinny z

I'll check them all out.

skiroulertx447

I ordered a set from Hawks thirdgen parts. There ad says russels but in the description it says earls???? I hope there the earls after reading this thread.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

I'm pretty sure Earls doesn't make them anymore.

skiroulertx447

hmmmm... well hopefully those will work ok for me

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

I hope I'm wrong but there were a few threads about it like here. >Link

I called them at the time as well but they didn't give any reason for it.

Gumby

its become futile to make your own parts anymore and be able to stay afloat.

Member all the dog food n peanutbutter recalls. All the name brands n cheap brands made in one place.

What smart folks do is fine a part several folks make n sell, start a business making just said part, and sell it to all those places for cheaper then they can make it themself, as you specialize in just that part.

We got a TV magnetic shield factory local I almost worked at.
They make the magnetic shield for all TV brands, ever brand under the sun has them make it. And they clean up making just one part for everyone.

skinny z

Off the top of their heads, does anyone know what the front hard line (male) fitting is on an 86? That would be the flare fitting that terminates into the flex line at the horseshoe clip chassis tab.
Secondly, are all banjo bolts/threads the same between the OEM single piston caliper and the LS1 two piston caliper?
As suggested, it looks like with the upgraded brakes, it's up to the end user to determine what's suitable in terms of compatibilty and fitment.
So far, with Earl's out of the picture and Russell being of suspect quality (sigh), Classic Industries has what appears to be a quality product (I like the German T.U.V. spec). It's just a question of finding what's adaptable.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Ahh, everybody is outsourcing these days. I didn't think of that since they appear to be a conglomerate of companies already.

skinny z

It's the quality of the outsourced goods that makes it difficult to make an informed decision. Even the distributors of the goods can't (or won't as is often the case) tell you where it's manufactured.
Caveat emptor.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

On the LS1 calipers, front & rear, the banjo bolt size is 10 mm (x 1 mm thread).

RBob.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Agreed, especially since they can use different manufacturers at any, or even at the same time.

skiroulertx447

So I looked into it more and i think im going to cancel my order from Hawks and get the kit from classic industries. They sound like a much higher quality

skinny z

Are you ordering for a stock replacement (as in original equipment brakes, 1LE or otherwise) or for a big brake upgrade like LS1 or C4/5?

Gumby

The point of any big company is to make money, what ever makes the most is what they do.

Only family owned businesses usually care more about quality then profits, till their name is so big they can't fail.

Take Eastwood 90% of what they sell can be found at Harborfreight as they are just a catalog company now with a famous name. They can cut corners for profit n it doesn't hurt business.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

You got that right, there used to be companies that maintained their quality, but now it seems that competition is so bad that they end up having to compromise. I didn't know that about Eastwood though, I'll keep that in mind.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

If you haven't ordered yet, I noticed a while back that 383T/A had custom brake lines done locally. You could try contacting him to see if he has any opinions on the route he took. >Link
You'll see it about halfway down in red, looks like it was at a place called brake and equip in mpls.

I also happen to have a set of Earls brake lines 28A180ERL (84-92 camaro/firebird) if you're interested.

Gumby

I feel for that eastwood stuff for a while then quickly learned it was a ripe off and won't ever shop there again. Same china made stuff, eastwood just sell the stuff that is good/they tested it. Why I shop more n more at HF, you just gotta use common sense.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

JamesC

skinny z

Well, that being said, the original direction of this thread was to find out if anyone had problems with the teflon/braided steel lines "deteriorating" over time. Much like a seat belt (or any other safety harness) environmental conditions contribute to the breakdown of material (particularly nylon) and after a period of time, the item is considered "non servicable". Not so much in the OEM world but certainly in classes of auto racing.
Quality of manufacturing notwithstanding, it would seem at least from the replies contributed here, that time dated durability issues aren't a problem with the teflon lines.
Question: Do road racing classes mandate replacement of flexible brake lines after a certain service life?

BretD 88GTA

I've had a Russell fitting break on the rear axle of my car. I just recently had an Earl's fitting break on the driver's front caliper. I don't plan to use any prefab steel braided lines in the future.

The route I'm going now is Wilwood braided lines with -3 AN fittings. Aeroquip banjo fittings at the calipers and Wilwood fittings at the chassis.

Bought the parts thru Jegs and Summit for less than what prefab lines cost.


FWIW, the only other company I know of that makes prefab lines for our cars is Goodgridge. Quality is supposed to be good, but I've never seen them in person. Most places will have to special order them, so they can take time to receive.

I tried once thru Tire Rack and they were on endless backorder. To the point Tire Rack called me to say they didn't think they'd be able to get them.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I got the Goodridge lines in 2 days from

http://www.hawkpadsdirect.com/

Quality is excellent.

skinny z

I had considered going the -3 AN fittings route with suitable adaptors. My question is how do you determine length when there has been an LS1 front brake upgrade? It seems to me that the flex lines don't take the stock routing and there is a mid-hose support that needs to be considered.(I've seen some people use a cable tie to secure the length of hose at the mid point and that doesn't appeal to me.)

I checked out the Goodridge lines. They look (and read) to be of good quality. Like I mentioned before, the German TUV spec is impressive to see.
My previous question carries over here. How do you determine part numbers when the fronts are upgraded to LS1?

Thanks for the all the info.
The rears are the 1LE version on a Dana 44. Seems to me that there should be a standard part number out there somewhere.

bcnvz28

I have a set of Earl's lines I haven't installed yet. I just checked Earl's online catalog and they still list them, and there are some companies still selling them. Take your time and search for good price as I see a HUGE price difference.

Earl's Part no. is 28A180ERL, this set has both front hoses, and the hose for the rear-end, on a Drum rear car.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The Russell rear line breakage seems to be common. A number of years ago a handful of TGO members had that happen. But since then there hasn't been many posts about it. Although it may be that TGO members searched, found those posts, and didn't buy Russell lines.

I still have Earls made-to-fit lines on the 3rd gen. Put them on several years ago and no issues. C4 discs up front and stock drums on the rear.

On the other car it has -4 AN braided lines. And due to issues with length, routing, and damage they were replaced. Again I used -4 AN lines. Fronts are Aeroquips, and the rears as Classic Tube.

One thing I found out is that most AN brake parts are in -3. The -4 AN size have a smaller selection of accessories. Banjos, adapters and so on.

It is good that The Tire Rack called you. It shows a company that cares about their customers!

RBob.

skinny z

Good info.
It's looking like there isn't so much a problem with longevity (as the OP had questioned) but rather with quality of construction.
So far it's Aeroquip, Classic Tube and Goodridge with high marks.
Russel and Earl's...not so much.
Now it's just a matter of mocking up the front end (paint is finally done!) and determining what length and fitting types I need for the LS1 front brake swap.