darbysan

Finished up my conversion today. Replaced the stock R4( third one in 6 years) with a new Sanden FLX7 compressor. Install was very easy, especially if you have already converted to R134a and have the Parallel Flow Condenser ( a must with R134a in my opinion).


The Sanden compressor is model 4864 (SD7H15HD-FLX). I chose this particular compressor because the stock F-body hoses I was using will fit with only a little tweak to the connection at the Accumulator. It is also a 7 piston compressor as opposed to the Sanden 508 (5 piston) that is commonly used in retrofits, and is a little larger in overall capacity. The connector has a built in Diode. I bought mine locally, but they are available on-line as rebuilts or new, and there are also "copies" available. Here's one of the places that had a good price online:
http://www.truckerac.com/sanden-flx7-r17134033708.html



You will need to make some brackets, or buy them already made. The kit is $60 at VintageAir.com, and after doing it manually, I think the kit is an OK value. Hardware alone cost me $20.
http://www.vintageair.com/INSTRUCTIO...s/901805_a.pdf



In my application, the Serp belt I had would have been usable, but was at the limit of the "stretch" marks on the tensioner. I bought a belt that was 6K965 vs the 6K980 I was using. It's worth trying your belt before buying a new one.

Charging was as normal for an R134a system. I was seeing temps in the mid to high 30's at the vent, with high pressures at 2 times ambient. Overall, very quiet compared to the R4 that was on it's way out.

Scamo-2.8

iTrader: (16)

Hey great info! Where did you get your Parallel Flow Condenser from? A place like this? http://www.ackits.com/c/Parallel/Par...+Aluminum.html What size did you go with, the same as the stocker?
How would you say the car/engine feels when the a/c kicks on?

deadbird

I considered going this route as well. I've found that the 134 compressor for a 1995 chevy truck appears to be the exact compressor housing with smaller clutch as to what the serpentine cars had. Also, the 134 dryer from a 2000-ish s10 seems to be the same as what our cars had.

For an 'upgrade' to more modern cooling (well, r12 to 134 anyways) yet, retaining stock appearance, that was what I've discovered to possibly work. I'm not to that point of worrying about A/C yet though so, those parts are just 'in theory'.

Nice to see that fits (belt alignment) and the stock a/c hose works as well. Good info.

darbysan

The condenser was a stock replacement from O'Reilly's for a '91 Camaro ($130). Look for "6 MM Design" in the description. Probably get them from any auto parts supplier. I think the one before this I got from Rockauto.com

I would say you can still hear/feel the compressor kick on, but it is no where near as harsh as the R4 was, and I would say it takes less power to run. RPM drop at idle was minimal.

darbysan

The last R4 I bought was a new AC Delco part. It was marked for use with either R12 or R134a. It blew a seal after less than 1 year. Seal was replaced, and it lasted 1 more year. i just don't think the inherent design can stand the higher R134a pressures over the long haul ( JMHO).

The stock Dryer will work fine for R134a, as long as it is new. It's only a problem if trying to re-use an old accumulater that had been run on R12 and mineral oil.

mcquigg

I just did this conversion, my vent temps went from 55 down to 35 on a 90 degree day. I have an 88 serpentine set so the stock belt is 98". With the vintage air kit and the FLX7 compressor you will need a 99.5" belt if your system is stock. It is definitely quieter then the R4, in fact I can't hear it at all unless my hood is open.

By the way the vintage air kit is specifically for the 508 compressor. You will need to get creative with the mounting and the bolts. The kit comes with the bolts and spacers but given the physical differences in the compressor your going to need washers to shim it since the spacers won't work with the FLX7 compressor.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Can you define "Tweaking" the lines?

Also, I'm assuming you made your brackets? I don't have the tools necessary to drill the holes like that or do anything of that nature.

darbysan

"Tweaking the lines" meaning slightly bending by hand so the threads engage easily. For the brackets, order the kit I mentioned in my post. It has the brackets and hardware necessary. You may have to use a couple of washers to shim the brackets for perfect alignment of the belt.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I'm going to be due for a new compressor/clutch this summer, mine is squeaking pretty good right now is why i asked. The link you posted for the vintage air kit, I wasn't able to find the kit you speak of. Would it be possible for you to link the kit?

darbysan

The link I posted above was for the Vintage Air kit, and showed the part number 141805. This kit is available at Summit. The picture Summit shows is just for reference, and is not for the actual parts shipped. Nowhere on the Net can I find the proper picture associated with this PN- that's why I post the actual instruction sheet with the PN associated with it.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-141805/overview/

If you want to just buy the brackets, and supply your own hardware and spacers, then the bracket part number is 146008, and it is also available from Summit. I can't tell if this gets you 2 as required, but I assume it does. Tracking down all the hardware, and making your own spacers, get's expensive unless you have ready access to metric hardware. I used stainless bolts, and it cost over $20.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-146008

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Sweet, thanks.

Now, the serptentine belt from my car (88 Serpentine set up) will fit with no issues? I'm just not sure how many ribs it has...I suppose I could go and count them.

eseibel67

This conversion is an awesome idea, the Sanden is a superior design. The only thing that bugs me is the 8 groove pulley, the old R4 uses 6 grooves. It will work fine as is, but personally I just couldn't accept those 2 extra grooves taunting me every time I opened the hood. Certainly the same compressor could be had with the proper pulley.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Can you retrofit a factory pully onto the Sanden unit?

eseibel67

Not sure, but I would say unlikely. The shaft is likely different.

Sanden makes a wide array of compressors with the 4 moutning ears, I would think it would be easier to get one that has the correct (or close) pulley in the first place.

deadbird

I know time has passed....

I have contacted Sanden and a 6-groove pulley is NOT available for the compressor for our application via them.

As a side note: GM engineers being the asshats they are... the truck r4 134 compressor is physically identical... excluding the refrigerant port seal design: fail

The s10 dryer... again.. identical except the port threads are different, wont mate to evap or soft line fittings: fail

edit: just to add... I was looking for OE purpose made 134 parts to retain a stock-ish look with new function. Im fairly particular on things looking clean yet, oe...

darbysan

It might be less noticeable if you spaced the compressor back about 1/8", allowing one of the extra grooves to show on each side of the belt. I wanted all the space I could get on the rear, but spacing it would not be difficult.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Is this Sanden unit the only replacement out there for our cars?

My car bogs down noticably when I turn my AC on (Facotry unit), pulls harder when driving and has a much rougher idle.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

That's really clean!

darbysan

I'm sure many options are available to be engineered. Just takes time, money, knowledge and inspiration to tackle the unknown. Heck, you can even get electric driven compressors these days ( used on Electric Vehicles).

deadbird

Thanks Ozz... aside from the blower motor wire not loomed yet, that is 100% wired/working.

darby- Quick question(s). The adapter brackets seem to just be centerline of the sanden ears to bolt to original bracket ? And, how close to the valve cover ?
I said f-it and ordered same compressor despite pulley 'issue'. Not finalizing a/c wiring is holding back dash swap.

darbysan

Correct on the brackets. The two outer holes run between the sanden ears. The hole at the center bolts to the stock Serpentine Bolt Hole on the engine side of the Serp bracket. The Opposite side holes on the sanden bolt directly to the outer holes on the Serp Bracket ( with the help of a couple of spacers).

No issues with the valve cover clearance.

This PDF shows it the best.
http://www.vintageair.com/INSTRUCTIO...s/901805_a.pdf

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

How did you know, exactly which grooves to put your belt into? You could be one off, never really know it and chew up your belt? I just started thinking about that and how it would suck..lol

darbysan

I measured the distance from the front edge of the Serp compressor bracket to the leading edge of the belt, with the old compressor installed. Knowing this distance, I installed the new compressor so that the belt lined up. The thickness of the new bracket you make should be almost perfect.

I'll try and clarify. These dimensions are not accurate- just something I made up to explain. Say you measured .75" from the compressor mount to the edge of the existing belt. The new compressor mounts behind the serp mount, so add the thickness of the Serp bracket ( say .375"). You also have the thickness of your new bracket (say .125"). You now have a total of 1.25" from the front of the mount on your new compressor to the location of the belt. If you measure the new compressor distance from the mount point to where the belt would be, and your measurement is shorter than 1.25, then add shims to increase. Probably "clear as mud" . Just measure carefully ( twice) and it should drop right into place!

If you want to "Center" the belt on the new pulley, just measure the distance between peaks on the pulley, and add this amount as a shim between the new brackets and the Serp mounting point.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

And what is the primary difference between this compressor and the 508 compressor that is more of a "direct" replacement type? Less power consumption? Better cooling?

darbysan

The 508 and 708 are older designs- designed primarily for r12 applications ( According to Sanden). The FLX7 is designed specifically for r134a. The 508 and 708 are nearly identical on the exterior dimensions to the Flx7. In fact the bracket PDF I showed above was originally for the 508/708. The 508 is a 5 piston design, while the Flx7 ( and the 708) is a 7 piston design. The 508 and 708 required an additional rear mounting head to attach the stock GM hoses. The Flx7 is designed with that GM mounting pad already there, so no extra cost.

I chose the Flx7 specifically because of the mounting pad for the GM hoses, and for being an R134a design.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Well, looks like as soon as I can come up with $400, I'll have to decide between better AC or new shocks (Going on 12 years on this set of struts). lol..but you've convinced me this is the way to go.

deadbird

Great, thanks! I looked over the pdf and between that and your pics, it seemed obvious but, never hurts to ask, especially since you made your own.

I 'bit the bullet' and my compressor should be here tomorrow. Appreciate all the info.

RavenGT

Actually there are really only two - the SD5 and SD7 design. The SD7 design is newer. All the other part numbers specify R12 or R134a, or the connections, etc.

BTW - they are manufactured in Wylie, TX.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I can't wait to hear how this turns out Deadbird. My AC works fine when I'm doing 35+mph, but is basically luke-warm if If i'm stopped of just tooling around, barely keeps the temps inside the car down to bearable levels in 90+ heat here in Salt Lake city. That, and my engine temp does the slow creep, stops at the 3/4 mark on the temp gauge for a bit, then starts creeping toward the red again, only in town, on the Freeway it stops around the 220* mark on the temp gauge and holds pretty steady. But that's a separate issue I think than the AC not being cold in the car.

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

What kindve clearance is between the back side of the compressor and the valve covers compared to the stock compressor. I'm running tall valve covers for clearance from my full roller rockers and stud girdles. Not much room in that area with the stock compressor as is.

darbysan

[QUOTE=dabomb6608;5790345]What kindve clearance is between the back side of the compressor and the valve covers compared to the stock compressor. I'm running tall valve covers for clearance from my full roller rockers and stud girdles. Not much room in that area with the stock compressor as is.[/QUOTE

I went out and measured mine. I have about 1/2" clearance between the lowest bolt on the compressor and the edge of the stock valve cover. It is very close to clearing the end of the valve cover- grinding the head of the bolt would give me full clearance if needed. Next to contact would be the Hose connections, which are 2" clear of the top of the valve cover.

The compressor is mounted on the lower outside of the serp bracket, so by simply making the new mounting brackets a little different shape, you could easily rotate the compressor another 20 degrees or more toward the passenger fender, giving all kinds of clearance.

darbysan

For those wanting more info, here is the Sanden brochure for the FLX7 series, including some pretty detailed dimensional drawings. For reference, the PN I used was 4864.

Basically, the FLX7 is a version of the SD7H15 model, but has a different back ( head) with the GM style pad as stock ( saving a few bucks).

http://www.sanden.com/objects/FLX7_2008.pdf

darbysan

From what I was able to determine in my research, the 508 /708 series is designed for R12, while the 5H /7H series is designed for R134a.

From Sanden's FAQ page-
Q: Does Sanden still provide replacements for older compressors designed for use in R-12 refrigerant systems?
A: Due to low demand, Sanden has discontinued R-12 models. This includes the following R-12 compressor series (SD505, SD507, SD508, SD509, SD510, SD708, SD709, TR70, TRF90, and TRF105). There are R134a replacements for the R12 models in most cases. Please contact one of our distributors for more information.

deadbird

quick ? darby. Can I assume you bypassed the high pressure cutoff switch ?

Not to curb your enthusiasm Ozz but, I've a bit to go before enjoying the fruits of my labour....

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Doh! Best of luck getting that rats nest back together! haha I'm ok for now, but my compressor is rattling a bit so it's a matter of time until I'm going to need to do this. Hopefully it'll make it through this summer!

darbysan

I did bypass the HP switch on the back of the R4 compressor. I used the HP switch in the hard line ( 233 psi) to turn on my high speed on the electric fans.

deadbird

Mild revival from the dead...

In between everything else going on, Ive managed to nearly finish mounts for mine. If the 8rib pulley didn't bother me, I may have finished this sooner.

So far though.... even small progress is at least that... (the hex bolts are not permanent... will find oe looking as time permits)..

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Is there any worry of the belt jumping on the 8 rib when its only a six rib belt?

deadbird

From what I can see, and darby may be better to answer where the belt lies (appears rearward in his pictures), the 6rib pulley is machined out to the front part. Basically it deleted the reward two ribs... if you were to just change pulleys, and used darbys brackets, the 1/4" difference would chuck a belt at startup.

darbysan

Just for info, mine's been on for 2 1/2 years with no belt issues at all ( in fact no issues for any reason so far!!). Not sure if you can swap the pulleys- don't know if the shaft's and mounting are the same.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I guess that's all we can ask for. I would just be afraid of the belt jumping grooves and getting chewed up.

deadbird

Even with a slight alignment variance, the belt walking would be pretty unlikely unless your belt was near its end and the tensioner spring was shot and revving the engine to the moon.

I was trying (poorly) to explain the difference between the 6 and 8 rib pulley to line the pulley with the others.

A 6 pulley/clutch is available, http://www.truckerac.com/sanden-clut...-65246010.html, and there is a slight thickness difference. I had to set my compressor back ½" to get the pulley in line with the others.

deadbird

The brackets I made are still fairly simple (welding required, though). I couldn't get past the ones vintage makes/darby made because it tilts the compressor and my ocd couldn't take the comp not being level (despite mounting angle not affecting operation)... lol

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

That's not bad though! I would prefer the six rib over the 8 rib.

deadbird

I did start with thinner brackets and trying to live with the belt centered on the 8 rib but, in the end, it bugged me. Talked to service at truckerac and they suggested the 6rib I linked above. Easy swap with 'loan-a-tool' puller.

Will probably powdercoat brackets cast alum to match my serp mounts to try and keep the look factory-ish. While ocd was kind of joking... I think I do have it with wiring (blower box)...

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

You know, what's funny is I think I'd be ok with it at first, but then it would bug the crap out of me if it wasn't sitting level. I'm again back to the, you want to make another set? hehe

gearhead141

I'm curious and forgive me if I'm getting off topic, but has anyone done the Sanden system on a carbed engine with the compressor on the driver's side? My car is an '85 without the serpentine setup (original), and the system didn't work when I got the car. It had been converted to R134, and I did attempt a recharge but the refrigerant was gone within 45 minutes. I haven't investigated since then as I may need to replace the condenser. Either way, there is a pretty good leak somewhere. Could I get a mount to fit that side of the car? Is it possible to get one out of an S10 or some other GM car or truck? I am not that interested in changing over to a serpentine system for reasons of my own.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Look into a serpentine set up from an 87. It was the transition year AMD they used a hybrid set up that used a serp belt but there was 3 belts like the old vbelt. Ac was on driver side I believe.

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

In 87 the only "serpentine" belt was really just a "multi-rib flat belt" that drove the alternator and water pump off the crank. Add an individual V belt for AC, PS, and air pump. I don't think 87 was significantly different than 85, or any of the all-V-belt configurations... just a couple different pulleys.

Since gearhead141 does not want to switch to serpentine, I think he gets to research and break new ground himself, and not just piggy back like us.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

If you look at the FLX7 model on the Sanden website, it appears that it can come with multiple pulleys. Three of which are V-belt style.