I went to the dyno with my friend yesterday. Check out the power I made. He has a 89 formula w/ hot cam, siamese runners,stock tb, 11.1 CR, l98 AL heads, auto trans.

The graph is stock vs my tuning. The reason I posted this here is that I have the before and after bin. I would love to share it with the board and discuss what I did to the prom chip/tables.

 

I'm curious as to whether the torque curve falls off as a result of the LTR setup, or if that's how the HOT cam looks. I haven't seen many dyno graphs with the HOT cam. Since the LT4 HOT cam is what I have, it is something I would like to know! I plan to go with something other than a LTR setup, but I'm not sure what else to use with the fastburns.

I would like to see some of what you've done with the bin, even just a general discussion of, not necessarily the actual bins..... I can see from the AFR graphs that it was running a bit lean, but I'm sure there's more to it than that!

Also, is the smoothness of the curves a result of the tune, or a different sample rate, or something else? I noticed that they look much smoother!

 

It's smoother because the tune. The stock settings sucked! If you want to see the bin changes, I can send both bins your way. It was spark and fuel changes for the most part...

I'm not a hardcore dyno guy. Experience tells me to measure performance in all of the drive gears( 1/4 mile run). The dyno measures power in third gear only. Get the picture? BUT at the same time look at the entire power curve. There is a dramatic difference. THat car will run better at the track.

Actually he is taking it to the track next week. My 3500rpm 10" tq converter will be installed, so I'll also be up there. We are going to line em up. His best with a junk custom chip was 12.9 @ 104(1.8 60ft) ,I think. My best so far this year has been 13.3 @ 104 with a 2.060ft. My formula is set up for cornering so it couldn't hook. It will next week. I should be close to 12.5.

I always take my prom burning equipment and log every run. The formula has ran about 30 times this year at GIR (test and tune). The a/f ratio has been @ 10.0 and I have also tried 13.1 . It likes the fuel curve rich at the tq peak and leaner up top. Right now I shift out at 6000 rpms , or so.. Wot spark is simple. I have ran 32*/34*/36*/38*/39* of s/a. Running with 39* burned the porcelain on my plugs(even though there was only a slight detonation on one cylinder)

I have a holley stealth ram. I think your hot cam would love it. FYI the torque always falls off in the upper rpms(on dyno graphs). Switching from the LTR setup to HSR would only gain you HP and extend your rpm range(if your valvethrain is up to snuff). I should know because I switched from a TPI intake to the HSR. There was no falloff in torque. For a 350, I would just make sure the CR is at or above 11.0 .

 

That's what I thought....

For my engine combo, it's the same as a ZZ430. No HSR for vortec style heads

I was thinking about the RamJet manifold. The kit is a bit more than I planned on spending, but you get quite a bit.

I'll be interested to see what the track times are....

 

I'd also be interested in seeing the before and after bins if you don't mind sending them my way. quiktrp@netzero.net.

Those are huge before and after differences, good job

 

What did you guys think?anyone else?


This is some good stuff

 

My firewall deleted the attachments, so I didn't get a chance to view them. I think it's because you sent the message with no valid sender and no message body. I tried to nab them off the server as well, but they were deleted as soon as I downloaded the messages to my computer

 

Just one question- is the 89 Formula still running a '165 ecm or has it been converted to SD?

If it is still a '165, e-mail the before and after bins to Br1dgemann@cs.com

Thanks Tim.

 

Al,
WOW, it's been awhile!! How have you been? Sorry that I forgot to mention, this car was convered to SD. Maybe you'll want to check the bins out anyways?

Tim

 

Try and take the email and push the forward button. Then you should be able to take the attachments from that and use the "save to disk" option. My firewall does the same BS

 

Yes, send the bins my way anyway. I am curious to see what changes you specifically made to the timing tables.

Thanks.

 

Me too

bradc@citywide.com

 

I would like to take a look at them also. I am running the Hot Cam with LTR setup. I was curious if switching over to HSR would help my car. I am running the stock 3.23 gears which I think is hurting me. Thanks, BranZ

qtomlb@hotmail.com

 

I'd really like to take a look at them also.

Thanks
Tom

tjkoprevich@yahoo.com

 

Could you resend them? I'll give it a try

EDIT: Try this addy: quiktrp@cbcast.com

 

Craig Moates has a nice little upload section. I'll just upload em there and post the link for everybody. I'm starting to get flooded with request.

These bins cannot be used for your car. It's not matched to your engine and will cause damage. Keep in mind, once I upload the bins I'll be looking for discussion on the table changes.

 

Just saying it doesn't always work.
IMO, just post a few of the tables, and let folks work out the details on their own. Once you say *look at this* or this works *for me*, folks often get lazy and don't really try figuring you've done all that can be done.

For some it's just human nature to take things for granted, and or assume things. Just the way things are, and no ones gonna be able to change it.

 

No disrespect, Grumpy, but no one asked your opinion on this one. I asked for the "before" and "after" bins so I could compare the two and ask intelligent questions to 11sOrBust and/or to the forum in general with the specific purpose of attaining a fresh perspective on how other individuals approach tuning...not because I am "Lazy" and plan on using someone else's bin for my setup.

Tim-
I will be waiting to see the bins on Moate's website. Thanks again.

Al

 

I think he was just saying people in general. I know I have ran a milder version of grumpy's timing table when I first started tuning. It was more out of a curiosity thing than lazyness though

It's just human nature though. Humans are a lazy animal, if they can find an easier way out of something, many will take that route instead of learning how to do it themselves.

Just my $.00002

EDIT: I'll be watching for the bins as well. I checked a couple times last night, but moates.net seemed to be down.

 

Okay, people in general. But we are not the general population. When you ran that timing table in your bin, you took precautions to ensure the survival of your engine as would I and as I believe most others would do that have taken 11sOrBust up on his offer to share the bins. Everyone that has posted bins here in the past point out that the particular bin is only going to work for the individual application it was designed for and should not be used in other applications, yatta yatta yatta. If someone does not heed the warning, there is no one else to blame for the consequences.

Anyway, it is not my intention to start a flame war, I just believe it is a good learning tool to actually compare stock vs modified bins and ask intelligent questions about why a particular change was made.

Cheers

 

moates site is down. I would post it at www.efi-tuning.com
but I have a lifetime ban from there. Maybe somebody else will host it.

 

That's why I made sure it would cause damage if used. The bin is just for learning/teaching. I'm not worried about the guys here. It's the millions that emailed me (that I've never seen at diy-prom).....

 

I learned that one the hard way, and I was just using the Super AUJP. Waaay too much timing for my motor for some reason, probably carbon build up or something.

 

Funny how that works. . .

RBob.

 

Geesh, booby trapping, info. that you public domain?.
Sorry, but I don't agree with that under any circumstance. It's one thing to PD an error, but PD something that you'll know cause damage, shows some degree of intent. Not good.

 

Oh, contraire. This is a public list. There is no guarantee about any min level of engine tuning experience, or complete and exscape proof legal disclaimers.

The world is full of folks that see lawyers as being an answer, to any guestion.

 

I lied about modifying the bin to cause damage. Figure it'll get rid of the vultures(guess the secret is out now). I hope the moderators don't think I'm trying to cause problems. Why did you chose to post about that anyways? If you had a problem then maybe it would have been best to contact me, personally. You can review the bins if you like. Nothing to kill an engine....

But I will modify some stuff to prevent startup. Is that ok, Boss?

 

Excellent idea. Is the stuff over on Moates.net? Keep in mind, my purposes are purely educational, since I cannot even use it yet!

 

http://www.moates.net/files/2)%20Cus...yno%20crap.zip


Guys, I think grumpy is trying to help. Even though it's hard to tell sometimes

Tell me what you think . I have everything packed in there(dyno sheet, bins and datamaster log).

 

I think Grumpy likes to teach the way I do......Give them enough to make them figure it out themselves..... I learn much better, and retain it much better if I get some clues and figure it out on my own...... That is where people get the wrong idea about some of the things he says.... I personally don't think he's "grumpy" at all.....

 

Ok, I had the link up for long enough. What did you guys think of the bins?(sitting here waiting for discussion )

 

ok, first item

i am assuming that because of the hot cam it must idle pretty high, that is why the lower cells are 0'ed out. That is the reason, correct?

I also noticed that you left values in ve at the high map values 80 up why?

Second,

I see all knock retard has been eliminated.

Third,

You disabled your EGR.

Do you think that by doing #2 and 3 that it helped smooth out the power curve?

Lastly

You increased the AE, was this for better throttle response?

 

No, I did that to disable the bin. I don't know any other way to do that. 80% up is the wot area so I left it...

 

Go download a trial version of datamaster and check out the log file. Stock timing was very, very weak

 

I am unfamilar with this, disable the bin?

What happens in this circumstance?

What do it run off(or refer to) of in this situatuion?

 

Is this in reference to #2 and 3.
I see lots of knock counts with spark retard
We are both typing at the same time... makes it bit tought.. I'll wait a minute.

 

I mean I made it so other people can't just slap it in their car. It was talked about in this post...

 

OK I see now.... Went over my head there for a minute, damn coffee hasn't kicked in.

 

 

I always get rid of the knock sensor and zero out the knock retard tables. Once you modify the engine (change the harmonic frequency/range) the sensor is useless. Just about anything can trip the stupid KS. Best to check for detonation "manually'.

The engine is a true l98. In a firebird. He just blocked off the plate on manifold and didn't use one. With the help of my ve tables it passed emissions test. Only emissions equipment was a catalytic converter.


You can see in the logs and dyno sheet , the a/f ratio was a gradual drop from 14.7 down. That's the transition from part to full throttle. Sometimes an engine will need AE increased to help the transition from idle/part throttle to WOT(It mostly depends on runner length/intake design). Torque increase and better throttle response is the goal. Too much AE and you would see a rich dip in the a/f graph. That usually will make the transition to wot feel like a bog. Too little and you can get a backfire through the intake.

 

Comparing the before and after timing tables, it appears you increased timing in the 95 and 100 kpa range in the 4000 rpm areas. How did you determine the engine wanted it in only two pulls and how did you dicides on how much to add?

 

Well...I have been working with my friends car for 6 months. BUT...really the engine is going to want a stable & strong timing table. Look at the dyno logs(download datamaster 8D). The first pull(second in the log), the timing was very,very weak. 32-34* timing is always a safe place to start. Ambient temps in missouri can reach 100*f so running alot of timing can cause detontation. 38*up is not an option in the summer air and pump gas. I never tune to the very edge. Never know when you'll get some bad gas, I have seen it happen....

More questions?