drive it

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm, OK I will try adding a few degree timing.
With your response in mind-I have seen the O2 Mv spend more time on the rich side than the lean, which would average to the rich side then.
Is there anything for adjusting that part?

Cflick

Timing may do it.
One thing at a time.

OTOH, closed loop targets a happy O2 sensor average, not necessarily stoich.
If the average O2 sensor is rich, then is the average BLM lean ?

bphage

Hey guys
I had been having many problems with the new 60lb injectors (33psi at idle with vacuum) and getting it to idle in closed loop; I just updated the EBL P4 so that it has true proportional duration and what a difference. Before it would enter CL and it would surge and then die… now it runs... not as good as in OL but it runs. Anyhow, I went back to factory settings for the proportional control then ran three bins with a 30%, 50%, and 90% reduction in gain mult vs airflow. I also changed to a heated o2 sensor for the headers. I started the car and warmed it up; It seems like the 90% reduction runs the best which is more than what I would have expected just based on change from injector size. I still have some idle fluctuations that I don’t understand. I also note that my VE curve isn’t flat where I idle – I manually changed it like it states in the tuning intro but after a few VE learns it slopes that area and it runs better. I tried it again today and same thing happens. I am also confused as my latest VE learns want to pull more fuel out but I seem to run on the lean side already on the WB. So I am not sure what to make out of that. I have 5 minutes of warm idle data if anyone would be willing to go over it with me and tell me if they like the prp gain etc. I could post the cold/warm up data but its 15 minutes and not sure where to go with it yet.

UPDATE--- looking through the data it looks like I have some lean surge I manually smoothed those areas in the VE - need to do some more learns; it also looks like dMAP was being added; looks like I didn't change those tables for the new injectors so I changed them to the stock 3005 bin then 24lb/60lb = .4; so the dMAP and dTPS values were multiplied by 0.4; I don't see oscillation in the int so i think the proportional gains are okay or at least close at this point.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

When in idle there are two parameters that are used in place of two of the proportional table values. Off idle there are four tables, two for duration and two for the gain. These two parameters are used in place of one table for each:

PRP - Gain Multiplier for Idle (Airflow)
PRP - Duration for Idle (O2 Error)

The gain parameter is used in place of the gain vs airflow table, while the duration parameter is used in place of the O2 error table. The other two tables are still used in idle.

RBob.

bphage

Well I was going to play with everything but it has been raining; at my last run the idle settings were:

PRP - Gain Multiplier for Idle (Airflow) is at 2% - so no change from stock bin.
PRP - Duration for Idle (O2 Error) decreased to 13 from 32

I didn't find any discernible difference at idle. Because it is raining I couldn't try zeroing out both of those values and seeing what happens. But would this help or am I already well into the realm of diminishing returns like I suspect? Interestingly the car really does seem to idle better with the changes to the other tables that are not used at idle... is this just in my head or is there some level of reference? The changes to the other tables do make a world of a difference when revving as before it would just die in CL.

So what am I doing wrong? My RWHP Goals are 420-455 on 15lb of boost; I calculate a 30% drive line loss through the 700r4, 3.5" alum shaft, & ford 9" rear - putting me at the 600-650 FWHP range. I currently dyno at 215 rwhp.

Is everyone who is running this kind of power running OL idle? I didn't think I could pass smog with that here in California.

It seems that if I can not get that fine of control over the injectors I have only one last salvage idea - change fuel to E85.

What do you guys think it seems changing to E85 would help, I would need to find an E85 station then can get it to run a smog tune then run OL idle with pump gas? The injectors would be to small for E85 at WOT so it would only be for smog unless I run meth ontop.

Sorry for the rambling: in Short, anyone getting 600 brake hp in CA and passing smog if so what am I doing wrong... secondly would trying E85 help with the CL idle for smog?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

As for idle in open versus closed loop, what size injectors are you running? This is what makes the difference. Running 60#/hr on an SFI set up and open loop idle is better then closed loop. Need the smallest amount of proportional gains to get cross counts.

Running 93 pump gas.

RBob.

Cflick

I know that back in the late 80's ( my vintage ) stock GM ran open loop idle, so I can't see any reason not to !
Of course, on my truck, stock GM idle was rich enough to exterminate plants, animals, and small children anywhere within 20 feet or so of the tailpipe in a stiff breeze, but it was smooth !

bphage

60lb injectors. So would be trying to zero out the two idle PRP gains be a reasonable next step? Thanks.

bphage

Yah open loop runs well even with bone head like me tuning. I can wait to get back to the garage and work these kinks out.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Probably not, for the individual idle parameters, one is a gain multiplier with the other being a duration offset (added together). If the gain multiplier is zeroed there is no gain (0 PW).

When in idle each of these parameters is used in place of the table of the same name. The other two tables are still used. So, in idle these are used:

PRP - Duration for Idle (O2 Error)
PRP - Duration Offset vs Airflow

PRP - Gain Multiplier for Idle (Airflow)
PRP - Gain vs O2 Error

RBob.

drive it

iTrader: (1)

I feel your pain!
I'm pushing 600hp and had to do some serious tweaking-recently did comfortably pass smog in Kali in closed loop.
I still do have a slight idle surge, but not bad-smog tech said nothing about it.
Look back thru Rbobs advice to me for tips. Here and in the thread on ebl idle surging.
I had to really tweak the O2 mean/rich/lean idle to lean it out to pass-still not sure why it seems the heated O2 sensor is off that much. (I have a 4 gas bench at home for testing tailpipe gases) If you try open loop idle the AIR is then not sending air to the cat-effects NOX.
If you're surging/stalling as you put it in gear double check idle rpm settings.
Also what I found made a big diff was manually adjusting idle VE-make sure it's warmed up/heat soaked first.
Also one of the biggest helps was having accurate injector values to plug in. Otherwise whenever the dual elec fans kicked on it would if not stall, then start an ugly surge that would even hit launch mode.

Oh yea-before you go in for smog go to the carb website and print out all the eo number pages for all your visible aftermarket parts-hand them to the tech first. Makes it go a lot smoother.
So long as your cam isn't lumpy, then should be fine.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For those that are following along with the proportional gains at idle. With a true duration being implemented in EBL Flash ECM V2.4 and EBL P4 Flash ECM V1.2, the ECU/XDF files have been since updated.

The conversions are not correct in the released ECU/XDF files. They were left at a multiplier of 1, which isn't correct. So going between the non-idle and the idle parameters didn't match up.

Can get the corrected ECU/XDF files from the Update page on our site. The filename has an 'a' added after the version number. So after grabbing them be sure to select the new XDF file in Tuner Pro.

EBL users should check the Update page on a regular basis. We have been placing updated installs and such there.

RBob.

bphage

Just wanted to say thank you; I will look up those posts and see what I can find.

bphage

I'll need to check on that too... I might have the wrong files...

The good news is that its still fun to idle the car and just listen to the motor purr lol Once it stops raining I can get back out and test it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You do have the older files, but it's not because you didn't check. When I was looking at the proportional parameters earlier this week is when I noticed the conversions were wrong. Just fixed them and put them on the site the other day.

I hear ya!

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

So I found some threads where people running TBI (i.e. wet flow) were putting their IAT into an intake runner bung or let's just say downstream of the TBI, essentially making it a MAT. what do you all think or what's the latest word on this? also, do you guys use the bird-cage style sensor for the faster response time due to the reduced mass/thermal inertia?
setting up a 84 vette here with TBI and trying to fab sth up to retain the CFI air cleaner housing/cover, when thinking about the IAT placement i came about the mentioned threads.

Cflick

Well, the "I" means intake, so to me, it should be in the intake stream !
Since it's use is a contributing factor to fueling, in my mind, as close as possible to the injectors, so...
Mine is a bird cage tie-wrapped immediately above the injector nozzles, where it will stay dry, and be sensing the air as close as possible to the point the fuel is injected.
If I remember right, Rbob has his somewhere near the grill in the intake tract ?
In any case, in the intake most definitely before fuel, since fuel will affect it probably more than we think.

Dominic Sorresso

Cflick,

When I converted my Xfire to EBL, I installed a birdcage IAT in the radiator shroud. I'll admit I really didn't understand how to tune it particularly since the XFIRE did not come w either an MAT OR IAT sensor. The LT-5 has a MAT sensor in the air horn but it is prone to heat soak. So I relocated it to the air intake over the radiator shroud. And have modified the cal for that positioning. It appears that I am able to get a more consistent fueling in spite of intake air temp changes. And I can see the air temp change while sitting at a traffic light.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

My tbi setup picks up cold air outside the engine bay under where the charcoal can used to b and I can also c Temps change while stopped at a red light .. my iat is in the carb hat about 3" from injectors

I rarely see over 5 degrees over ambient Temps setting still ... and 1-2* rolling

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

So how exactly do I tune for an efficient CAI

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Question on TBI injector offsets with EBL supplied BINs:

EBL_F_2025.BIN: HT502 BBC, TH400, 24 psi FP, 80.5 #/hr injectors, TBI

Despite higher fuel pressure and bigger injectors, this one has the same values for these two tables as does the '92 Caprice stock L05 EBL_F_2020.BIN:
INJ - Correction Multiplier - TBI Only
INJ - Injectior Correction Offset

Shouldn't it be scaled similar to how it was done in EBL_F_3001.BIN?

EBL_F_3001.BIN: 5.4l SBC '113 Hds, Isky 280 HL, headers, stick,
80 #/hr @ 22 psi, VRFPR, OL cruise, CL idle

For the second table I listed, the values for 3001 also present a strange characteristic imho (blue line below, green is stock):



Any input on this please?
Trying to come up with some values for 80# @ 22 psi

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Six of one and a half-dozen of another. The difference is the engine displacement, a 502 is going to have larger injector PW's, so the compensation isn't as critical. The 3001 tune is for a 331 ci engine, where short (very short) injector PW's are normal.

So to get good driveability the injector compensation has to be dead on.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Not sure I got that. You were saying the 502 typically has larger inj PW because of the added need to fuel the displacement, and the smaller 327 needing less because of that? And that the smaller cid engine is more sensitive to the compensations accuracy, hence why the 502 bin can work with the same tables here as a stock 350 TBI calibration, ok..
But are the 3001 compensations correct? Their characteristics seem quite strange to me, as said.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The compensations that are in BIN 3001 I worked out myself. Having limited resources I was unable to get higher voltages to see what worked in those areas. For the lower voltages in the multiplier table I disconnected the alternator and drove around some.

Then used the BLM and WB feed back to tweak the values.

RBob.

Cflick

I can probably help you with that, provided your alternator has a discrete sense terminal.

A few 3 cent diodes, and a "bad" car battery...... ( the battery WILL be stressed, so one you plan to scrap would be best ) (( Myself, I wouldn't go above about 16.5 volts in any case. You start to risk other things, like the regulators in the ECM ))

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

If it has a remote sense terminal a potentiometer also works well.

Cflick

If wired correctly, and if the pot has enough dissipation, can take the voltage up or down to any desired level, but the regulation isn't as good.
A few cheap diodes will allow 0.6V steps, and the regulation is as good as the regulator built into the alternator.

alex91z28

how does the single fire mode works?, while holding the gas pedal between 1500 and 2000 rpm close loop is going on single fire mode. and going lean

krigel

Having trouble nailing down the AE PW tables. I have a 383, AFR Aluminum heads, 36# injectors, Ported TPI, Tremec Magnum 6 speed in my truck. It idles really rich, and blows soot at cold start, so I pulled the AE tables down by 122 over the 3006 bin calibration. What should I have the AE tables set for with this set up?

Thanks,

KR

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Single fire (S/F) is used when the injector PW goes lower then the Enter value of this table:

INJ - Single Fire Mode PW - PORT Only

The ECM will return to double fire (D/F) once the injector PW goes above the Exit value of the above table.

For this to work the injector compensations need to be close to the correct values.

RBob.

alex91z28

I have the ford blue top injectors thought would be pretty close to the stock ones, but had to lower the ve tables way down? I increased the propgaintimevsairflow that seems to help a little.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Did you get my email on the SA? Changing that will change all of the fueling.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The older style 24#/hr injectors, possibly part number 280-150-947?

Post back or email the fuel pressure that is being used (vac line off).

RBob.

alex91z28

I checked and the part# is f55e-a2e,my fuel pressure vac off is 44psi.
I started with the 3006 bin.

mikesmith

Will the ECM / EBL continue to supply power to the FP relay while it believes the engine is running?

I'm asking because I don't currently have an oil pressure switch and I'd like to use a 0-5V oil pressure sender connected to one of the analog inputs rather than jerry-rigging something to work with the 'normal' setup. (And because I just pulled everything apart and can't test this myself anymore, oops.)

= Mike

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, as long as DRPs arrive the ECM will continue to enable the fuel pump relay.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Good 'ole Denso's, here is the data (it should be correct for that injector):

Injector Data Sheet: M-9593-A302, 24 #/hr blue tops, fat

Fuel Pressure: 44
Flow rate: 26.0 #/hr

Minimum PW @ 44 psi: 1070 usec

Offset Compensation versus Battery Voltage:
6.4 Volts: 2988 usec
8.0 Volts: 1784 usec
9.6 Volts: 1228 usec
11.2 Volts: 912 usec
12.8 Volts: 692 usec
14.4 Volts: 518 usec
15.0 Volts: 469 usec * extrapolate out to 16+ volts

Use the 12.8 volt value at the 0 volt entry of the table.


Just zero this table as can't enter negative numbers:

Short PW Compensation versus Pulse Width:
0.015 msec: -142 usec
0.244 msec: -130 usec
0.488 msec: -117 usec
0.732 msec: -104 usec
0.976 msec: -91 usec
1.220 msec: -79 usec
1.460 msec: -66 usec
1.708 msec: -53 usec
1.950 msec: -40 usec
2.197 msec: -27 usec
2.440 msec: -14 usec
2.685 msec: -2 usec
2.929 msec: 0 usec
3.170 msec: 0 usec
3.410 msec: 0 usec
3.660 msec: 0 usec
3.900 msec: 0 usec

RBob.

alex91z28

thanks!

krigel

I've made some progress getting my idle to settle down, and have the engine running smoother. The big problem now, is it runs a little rich at idle,(700-800MV) then from 950-1700 RPM's it leans right out...down below 100 mv almost instantly when you hit the throttle, with a flat spot as well. It will stay lean until 1700 RPM. This all happens with MAP between 30-45. Is this just the VE table that I need to adjust, or should I be adding in AE somewhere? Is there something else I am missing? Also, my 36# injectors are running at 2% DC in S/F at idle. Is this too low? How do I repair?

Thanks,

Ken
Forged 383, Ported TPI, 36# Fast INJ, 195 AFR Heads, Comp 466-8 Cam, Tremec Magnum 6 Speed.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTEIs this just the VE table that I need to adjust, or should I be adding in AE somewhere?][/QUOTE]

Maybe both. Rule out the VE by steady state throttle and see what the BLM is. If it is high BLM>130 then adjust VE. If you get the BLM <128 then look at the AE adding incrementally. You may see a short time of lean as throttle opens which is normal. Minimize that with the AE filter (reduce value is sooner) .

Port fuel is going to be a bit trickier as is in not a wet manifold to compensate for AE fueling needs.

krigel

Yeah, at steady state throttle the BLM is above 136....sometimes 143. I'll add some fuel and see what happens. At idle, should I pull some fuel out to lean it a bit, or just leave that for now?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I idle at 13.8-14.0/1. I think my Lambda is .97 definitely <1.0. But it moves around as I am TBI currently until April when the SP port fuel manifold goes on...

krigel

Also, with 36# injectors, what should the DGD Injector Flow Scalar be set at with 48 psi at the fuel gauge?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Set it the same as the injector flow rate (37.8 #/hr at 48 psi). Note that this is for a digital dash set up with the drivers information center (DIC).

It is a separate value so it can be tweaked for accuracy without affecting the tune. There is another flow rate parameter for the WUD's trip display.

RBob.

Cflick

Idle uses so little fuel, if it's smooth I wouldn't be concerned.

AE is exactly what it says. Acceleration Enrichment.
The VE table, without getting too deep, is a steady state fueling. If you hold 1600 RPM at 40 MAP for several seconds, that's what the VE needs to be set for. Once that value is determined, leave that alone absent compelling reason to change it.
AE is a dynamic thing. AE adds fuel while things are changing. Yes, the VE is used as a "base" to calculate from, because you have to start somewhere. Start with steady state.

What's too low ?
My mill typically runs 1% at idle. Sometimes it surges, sometimes it's dead steady, sometimes it rolls. Hey, with only 1% range left, what do you expect ?
I could add a vacuum referenced regulator, and get the fueling up several percent, for quite a bit more control, except that if it doesn't stall, why would I care ?
As I mentioned at the top, idle uses so little fuel ( and air ) and the engine load is as near zero as it can be, so it's just not worth it ( to me ) to spend any time or effort there.
Now, off-idle all the way to wide open, maximum load, maximum speed very high RPM is a whole 'nother thing !
I'd work on your flat spot, yes, absolutely. Get the VE right at steady state, and go from there...... until you tweek timing and start all over again.

Cflick

The purpose of AE, a "pump shot" is ONLY to compensate for fuel dropping out of suspension in the manifold, when the throttle is opened suddenly. Since the fuel drops out, and literally rains onto the manifold walls, the air getting into the cylinders is lean. By dumping excess fuel into the flow, the pump shot, we try to achieve a situation where the main mix minus the fuel that drops out plus the pump shot is neutral, as if nothing has changed, so that we get the same good AFR into the cylinder.
By extension, on throttle lift, that fuel that has condensed on the manifold walls evaporates into the air stream, so that what gets into the cylinders is rich. DE, Decelleration Enleanment, is to make the main flow deliberately too lean, so that the evaporating fuel being added back into the stream results in, again, a neutral situation.
The combined objective of both functions is to maintain the AFR calculated from the main VE table.
Obviously, neither of these apply with port injection, but...
Yes, we do use them to augment "other purposes" such as to get the main mix deliberately overly rich in a big hurry, before PE, power enrichment, has a chance to become active, to enrichen the AFR for maximum power at the expense of economy.
In every case, these depend on the VE having been correct, as determined from steady state conditions.
Hope this helps....

krigel

Got that...I totally understand pump shot...how about the lean condition off idle through 1700 RPM where it drops into lean extremely quickly? Will VE learns take care of that?

Cflick

If it's staying lean, and/or if ( as you suggest above ) your BLM is adding fuel ( numbers above 128 consistently ) then yes, it will, though it might take a few runs.

If it was me, knowing that someone once said... Too rich, you buy spark plugs. Too lean, you buy internal engine parts. ... I'd add some value, say 25% through that range to try and get ball-park close, then VE-Learn, assuming you haven't drowned it to the point it won't run.

Remember though, you need steady state for VE learn to be effective. Pick an RPM and load ( MAP ) and hold it there until the Learn can register a correction, then move on to the next RPM or MAP increment, and do it again. Get as many points or cells as you can, then manually extrapolate between them, then go drive it and see how it runs, and what VE Learn wants to do.
When VE Learn is over-shooting and correcting itself on the next run, you're close.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Ken, that is impossible. You are looking at each line of the datalog within fractions of a second, which will give the impression that the narrowband is only swinging between 700-800mv's, when it really isn't. I can show you EBL datalogs at idle where my O2's will occasionally reach over 900mv at idle, but that doesn't mean anything, that is just what narrowband's do because they are not as precise as a wideband, and the spectrum is so much greater for it to cover. Think of it as watching a ping pong game compared to a tennis game, with the narrowband being the latter. As for the duty cycle percentage at idle, for comparison, my 305 w/ported TPI, ported heads and 23x/23x cam, when running the old 30# injectors my duty cycle was 4% at idle with a 14.7 air/fuel ratio. Once your IAC steps are dialed in, your VE Learns will take care of the rest...

Look at the O2's and Duty Cycle at idle in this picture as an example...



Edit: This is the only time Duty Cycle becomes a concern...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bob, question on the analysis 1/4 mile screen, just to make sure I am doing it correctly. I just grabbed this 0-60 from the datalog that I posted above (3:48 mark). From a dead stop until around 60-mph is where I let off of the throttle because I was on a city street. In the first pic I have the scroll line at 0-mph, in which the converter then couples at about 1450-RPM soon after, and mph increases up until 60-mph. The second pic I have the scroll line the moment 60-mph becomes prevalent. Based on these two images, which one do you use to calculate the 0-60? Boost hit 9-psi with the T72 turbo with the old 30-lb injectors running the stock converter during this blip...