Ghettobird52

Can any TBI'ers out there chime in with what they are getting for IAT temps at fully warmed up. My IAT temp is getting as high as 160F after ive been driving hard (4-5k revs) on it for 15-20mins. I dont remember it getting this high before.....

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This is mostly going to depend upon where the IAT is located. They will pick up heat if mounted over the engine, even if it is in the intake air stream.

RBob.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

This has always been a internal debate for me, where to mount the IAT. Closer to the filter and it picks up more ambient temps, but if your piping and engine bay are warming up your charge do you want to be measuring it closer to the throttle body.

-- Joe

Ghettobird52

Hmm makes sense, it is still mounted at the stock location in the air cleaner above the intake manifold.

Ghettobird52

Update: So after taking off the breather vent hose from valve cover to air cleaner off, removing the thermostatic heat rise, and finding my throttle body 1" ring spacer for air cleaner wasnt sitting flush, Im able to keep temps around 118F or lower. Cruising temps are looking more like 100F now.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Here's a quick question. Would an EBL Flash with a port mod work on a V6?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The Port Mod can be ordered for either a 6 cylinder or an 8 cylinder engine. This is done via straps on the board, which aren't easily changed by the user. Although the boards starting early in 2016 are easier to change.

Using a board set for a 6 cylinder on an 8 cylinder engine works OK. It is hardly noticeable that the injector firing rate is 1/3 more often then it should be. Every 3 spark plug firings instead of every 4.

The opposite, using an 8 cylinder board has a 6 cylinder engine running strange. It is noticeable as the engine just doesn't run right.

RBob.

Stokes1114

I have some questions so thought I'd come straight to the source. I have a 93 k1500, 5.7, 4l60e with 16168625 ecm. I am about to do a vortec head swap with cam and know tuning will be needed. I like the idea of ebl over swapping chips but can't find clear answers. Does my computer work with ebl? Does ebl allow emulating or real time tuning? I've seen some ppl using the ostrich or autoprom in conjunction with the ebl for this? Also what software is compatible with it? I see it has its own wud but have heard of ppl using tunerpro as well. I'm leaning towards the ebl for hardware as of now just plz help me understand some things better. Thanks in advance!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

In the case of your vehicle, yes, you will use both the stock PCM to run the transmission. While the EBL Flash ECM runs the engine. This allows for tuning the engine but not the transmission.

No, flashing takes about 4 seconds. The ECM will go into limp mode during this time. But most engines will stay running if so.

This is one reason for the multiple flash banks. Can load a bunch of BINs with incremental changes and seamlessly switch between them with a mouse click.

This is with the original EBL (or Classic). It was EPROM based and required chip swapping.

Most folks use TunerPro to edit the BIN. The WUD is used for everything else.

RBob.

Stokes1114

Thanks RBob, for clearing up my questions. How about the installation for my ecm?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You add another set of ECM harness connectors for the EBL ECM. Then move the engine control wiring to those connectors along with splicing and sharing power ground and some sensors. Email me for the whole procedure.

RBob.

83 Gman

My question to this is:
If the NB O2 is very erratic what influence does it have on the rest of the system?
Thanks

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

NB02's can be said to be erratic. they toggle over .45V. The size of swing can be adjusted. I left mine stock swings. You will see that on WU and analysis of log data

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Just use the factory TBI PCM from the truck and use a Moates Autoprom for real time tuning using TunerProRT. You are going to want to dial in the transmission as well and are going to be tuning the PCM chips anyway, might as well stick with it for the engine too. I have even run a Vortec head TPI on a modified TBI PCM.

83 Gman

Where is adjusted? In scalards? Or does it really matter.

Stokes1114

That is true since Ill have to tune that way for the trans anyway. I just love the idea of VE learn

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I think EBL will correct the table while you are driving, but I don't believe those corrections are applied until you pull over and 'flash' the ECM.

-- Joe

daferris

iTrader: (8)

correct you have to update the bin and reflash the ECM to retain the new ve learn data. Otherwise it's not a permanent change.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

And done that way on purpose. Most are new to tuning, and many setups have mechanical issues. Would suck if the VE Learn took place real time with mechanical issues. Could easily end up with a dead car on the side of the road.

As for Flashing in a new tune, takes 3 - 4 seconds, doesn't seem to be too much trouble. And the VE Learn shows those areas that have been covered. Allowing the driver to change up a bit to get coverage in other areas.

As for being able to tune real time, that is great if you are an experienced tuner. But for someone that is new to the game, it will create havoc with the tune. I've seen that here even with chip burning, just change things to the way you want them, not how the engine wants them. Along with losing track of what was changed.

RBob.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't know. I think it's a matter of how well the software auto tunes. Almost everything now is plug and play and auto tunes. While some people have had some issues, the overall majority of people installing complete aftermarket systems are driving in no time. These are not tuners, heck most of them just answer a few questions on a handheld device and start driving.

On my own stuff, I really like the auto tune. I can just go for a nice drive and it gets better and better minute by minute. By the time I'm home everything is corrected and saved.

My Corvette is a flash based ECM, and it's quite frustrating making changes and having to flash and see how it reacts. But it's also a 20+ year old ECM.

-- Joe

Hardtop TTA

For my app (D-body 91 305 TBI) I decided to go with EBL Flash. As of this time last year, I didn't see anyone in the plug and play aftermarket that was offering TC lockup control.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yeah, they don't usually advertise it as TCC lockup, bur rather "Spare programmable inputs and outputs".

A lot of the TBI guys use EBL.

-- Joe

RBob

iTrader: (1)

And the EBL has been auto tuning for over 11 years. It works. For some reason I think you miss the point of not only how well the EBL system works, the support behind it, and the base that uses it.

RBob.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm aware of how well it works, I hear about it all the time from a handful of forum members.

How many units have you sold now? A thousand or so?

There are a lot of different systems, and not any one will satisfy the needs for all users.

You have a pretty specific target audience though, as I'm often reminded.

-- Joe

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Wrong thread for the direction you are taking this discussion. This thread is for tuning with the EBL system.

I can easily rebut your statements, but as I said, wrong thread.

RBob.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm confused. I said I was aware of how well it works, and have spoken to a number of happy users?

-- Joe

Ericc

Is disabling PE mode for VE learns in those small group of cells that normally only see PE mode active a valid method to get the fuel correct there?

Or is this just going to cause knock and mess with the learning process?

Thanks
Eric

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I have disabled PE and obtained L in some cells rarely seen in typical driving. However adequate results could be obtained by smoothening/interpolation. Knock will pull timing as you have commanded in bin. knock while disabled PE may cause damage due to lean condition.

A WB is helpful addition for tuning WOT.

Dominic Sorresso

I'd agree w Ronny. I try to take the VE Learn to about 70kpa and 4000rpm. I know I will ge into PE by rthat point street driving. Then the rest I use WB to tune for WOT and PE. Frankly not sure its worth too much time spent to get to 90kpa and 5500rpm to dial in VE. With an LT-5, I'd be trying to get to 7000rpm.
Whew!

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I have an off the wall question for our EBL gurus. On my 89 2.8 car that is MAF controlled. With either the Flash of the SFI-6, can I tune out the MAF and run speed density? If so how would I add in a MAP sensor? I'm planning on a 4.3 T5 custom multiport swap and I'd like to use either systems to tune it.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

The wiring schematic you would use to run the 730 ecm would be that of 90-92 3.1L.
http://austinthirdgen.org/mkportal/m...ine_wiring.gif

302-730 pinouts
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...730-749-a.html

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL systems are speed density, MAP required (1, 2, or 3 bar). The EBL SFI-6 uses sequential injector firing. Which means that each injector has a wire from the ECM (unlike the stock 2.8l/3.1l ECM). Due to this it also requires a cam sensor to properly sequence the injectors.

If you were doing boost and wanted features to support it, the EBL SFI-6 ECM is a good way to go.

If your engine is N/A or even mildly boosted, the EBL Flash ECM or the EBL P4 can also be used. They will be batch fire systems that fire all injectors at the same time.

For wiring in the MAP sensor the MAF wires are used. Will still need to plumb a vacuum line between the MAP and plenum.

We generally recommend the EBL Flash system with the Port Mod for your vehicle. Just a few terminals/wires need to be moved in the stock ECM connectors to match the EBL Flash ECM.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I'll go with the standard EBL Flash as i don't plan on going apeshit with this build. Just some portwork, a 270AHR cam and a custom intake. So if I just sent you the computer from the car itself would that make things easier?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

My startup tune on my coil per cylinder drive by wire 1997 5.7L Express van came from a 2001 8.1L Express van. The length of time the newer truck engines can run at WOT without dropping into PE is actually pretty scary. Even when I thought I had the PE setup to enable I missed a setting that did not allow PE under 100% load. My engine would not hit 100% calculated load until 4,600 rpm.

DOHC V8s @ 7,000 rpm are definately fun. I have an Infiniti M56 that turns to 7,000 and it is a monster to drive.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL Flash won't work in the stock '7302 ECM. It needs to be one of the seventeen listed on the EBL Flash product page. We have plenty of ECMs so providing one is no issue. Be sure to order the Port Mod for a 6-cylinder engine.

RBob.

Ratfink65

Hello,

I am have a light throttle stumble and am not sure where to start. If I manually shift through the gears and skip overdrive my truck runs pretty good.

I suspect A/E from other posts I have read but am not sure.

1989 Suburban
EBL Flash (duh!)
L31-R Long Block Assemblies 12530283
RV Morse Bored TBI
Salad Bowel Mod
Wieand Street Warrior Intake
Fuel Pressure set at 19psi
Matched and flowed 62lbs injectors
Doug Thorley Tri-Y Headers
2.5 into 3" Flowmaster exhaust
Rebuilt 700r4
Rebuilt NP241 Transfer case
3.73 Gears 31" Tall Tires

I have done at least 15 learns and the truck has responded well..

Future Mods..
IAT Integration
Heated O2

2. How do I attach a datalog?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Change the high way mode enable MPH to 50 -55 MPH:

HiWy - Min MPH

If the stumble occurs as the throttle is being opened is AE. If it occurs at steady state then it is something else.

Zip/compress it first then upload.

RBob.

gibbles

If you have headers and don't have a heated o2 sensor yet, you will get some pulsation at light throttle cruising.

​​​​​​​Move that heated o2 to the top of your list.

Ratfink65

Thanks I will give it a try!

Ratfink65

Sounds like that could be the case. I will let you know what happens when I get it fixed. The stock tri-y headers have the bung in a stockish location..so I thought it might be ok. I did eliminate the stock exhaust with a free flow system with no cat though..

Ratfink65

.

The_Punisher454

I have installed an EBL-P4 on my brothers car and am working on getting it setup correctly.

Its a 67 firebird, with an 8.5:1 454, brodix race rite ovals and a Weiand 177 blower. Cam is a Lunati solid flat tappet with 251/259 @.050 .601/.625 lift ground on a 114 LSA.

I am using a custom throttlebody setup which consists of 2 x 2" TBI units, no injector towers, but with 12 Bosch design III injectors between the throttle bores and Blower.

link to previous thread with pictures
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...y-version.html

So I have a bunch of questions.
For the IAT should I use the IAT we have in the manifold, move it above the throttle bores, or just run with the CTS/IAT belnded 100% ?

Should I do the AE and PE like a TBI or a port injected engine? right now I have them mostly disabled while trying to "rough-in" the VE tables.

The car has a 180 thermostat, but I notice a noticeable mixture quality improvement as it the temps rise from 170-185 or so. I'm thinking a 195 thermostat would make it much easier to tune. I think this may out-weigh the benefits slightly better detonation resistance of the lower coolant temps.

I have re-scaled the gain on the TPS to around 130. It allows me to get 100% TPS by around 80% physical throttle. with all throttle 4 blades fully synchronous I get a lot of airflow increase from 0-3%, in fact a lot from 0-1%. Seems like just not enough resolution on an 8 bit ADC (I'd like to see a lookup table for this). anyhow, I have the tps set at .6v fully closed. would a higher idle volttage be okay, something like .7 or .8v?

I am considering trying out the N-Alpha mode for idle. but I was looking at the 2-bar N-alpha table (I used the supplied 454 bin as a base) and the table seems way off to me.
with that table as-is it would simulate a map reading of something like 170-180 kpa? I have this thing idling somewhare around 80-90 kpa at 700-800RPM on the 2-bar map sensor. Should I populate the N-alpha table idle area with some of the typical map readings I currently am getting in regular SD mode?

I have the FPR vacuum referenced now from the injector plenum above the blower, that's where the injector nozzles see vacuum. I had initially referenced the regulator from the intake manifold, but I'm fairly sure that's a recipe for more tuning inconsistency.

BTW, currently we arent running on all 12 injectors. The external injector driver I made had a slight issue (wiring mistake) so its bypassed right now and just running on the stock '730 injector driver with 10 injectors plugged in. I believe I scaled the injector flow setting right. I multiplied the individual injector flow x the number of injectors. The divided that by 8 and used that number.

Anyhow, I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions soon.
Thanks
Marvin

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The IAT/MAT needs to measure the incoming air temperature. So with a SC it needs to be after it, in the intake manifold. For now setting the CTS/IAT blend to 100% is OK, the intake air temperature becomes one less thing to tune around.

Whatever works. The air/fuel mix going through the blower mixes it quite well. But it is still a wet flow setup.

Start with what works best, then go from there.

The TPS idle voltage (throttle closed), can be anywhere from .4 through .8 volts. It doesn't matter as the ECM saves & uses the lowest seen voltage as the 0% TPS.

It is set up as a 1-bar MAP table. Halve the values to rough it in for a 2-bar MAP.

Yes, populate it with the average values as seen by the MAP sensor.

Yes, needs to be referenced to the injector tips.

RBob.

The_Punisher454

Is that reset each startup, or should I disconnect the ECU from the battery for a full reset?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The lowest seen TPS value is reset at key-on, then learned once the engine is running.

RBob.

CORV3TT3

I recently upgraded to true duals and headers- also added a heated O2 sensor.

Well, I am struggling with getting the AFRs down while in idle. Driving is okay- it's at idle that I'm a north of 14.7... sometimes upwards of 17:1. Didn't have the problem before I swapped out the exhaust.

When I am in open loop- I hover pretty good to the cAFR. Something's off in the settings somewhere for closed loop.

Can someone look over this log and make some suggestions?

I have tried adjusting the O2 windows at idle- but it doesn't seem to help. Proportional gains seem to be okay as well.

I'm kinda stumped.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If the engine ran OK prior to the new exhaust, be careful of what you change in the tune. Note that the slightest exhaust leak will causes O2 sensor feedback issues.

With the change in exhaust the VE table should be increased (auto VE Learn).

RBob.

gibbles

Incase this is helpful, i have long tubes, heated O2, dual exhaust (3in), aluminum heads, renegade intake, mild cam, 80lb injectors, and 1.65 ratio roller rockers.

I idle pretty solid in the current config, i do not have a vafpr installed yet (trying to figure out how to do the fuel lines still).

I attached my current working version incase it's helpful.

gibbles

CORV3TT3,


I'll also note that just changing from a bosch heated o2 sensor, to an AC Delco (Denso) sensor I had to do a VE learn as the readings had changed (for the better).
(I know your way past me in experience )


Headers will also flow better and need more fueling (as I understand it).


This spring I also changed my exhaust system from the 3in exhaust system, that tapered down to 2.5in, and then to 2.25in, then entered the stock 84 mufflers.


I went to straight 3in all the way down into a set of flowmaster 40's and added a second xpipe, that alone required me to add a bit more fueling across the map.


Doing a quick review of your bin I will note how much better your VE tables look vs mine.
I totally ran out of fueling, however the car is pretty dang quick, Friday I was keeping up with some motorcycles...


I have an areomotive regulator sitting in my tool box once I figure out the heck to set it up, and mostly how to run the fuel lines, and what AN fittings to buy...
(Any tips, pictures, part helps would be very appreciated)


Also take a look at my SA Latency settings, it's untested so far however from what I read, it's correct for a corvette large cap distributor.
(That and I have a DUI module)

Dominic Sorresso

I found that the Bosch O2s would regularly drop signal, causing the ECM to disable LEARN. My datalogs would show O2 with 0.00mv. I switched to ACs on the advice of RBob, and now its solid always. Just an FYI.