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I read yesterday that I could do a VE learn via data log, so I gave it a try...
I see what your talking about with the AFR bouncing around...
I also did a VE learn from your bin file and datafile playback, it did a lot of subtracting when set to learn from BLM, and some adding and even more subtracting when learning from wideband.
I also noticed your NB O2 graph looked weird to me on idle, my expected is to see it bouncing up and down in clear defined "mmmmmmm" type shapes, however it may be your O2 settings I'm seeing...
So I dunno if that's normal with my noob eyes...
If an issue; what O2 sensor did you buy?
And for the WB sensor, for mine I have to calibrate it every so often, the readings get super lean after a while if I don't.
I found that the Bosch O2s would regularly drop signal, causing the ECM to disable LEARN. My datalogs would show O2 with 0.00mv. I switched to ACs on the advice of RBob, and now its solid always. Just an FYI.
I ordered a 3-wire AC Delco years ago from a local Chevrolet dealer for a 1995 G20 Van 350 TBI. Opened the box and it was a Bosch sensor. Stuck it in and it ran just as it should.
I have been reading through the latency threads, and I found this information reversed a few times, what one should I use for an 84 corvette distributor (stock 84 with a D.U.I. module)?
Ok so to clarify for those who ran into the same information blur as me, the settings is as follows, and both using the "369" spark module?
AUJP (Small Cap)
-------------
RPM usec
800 214
1200 275
1600 305
2000 244
2400 275
2800 244
3200 305
3600 320
4000 290
4400 305
4800 305
5200 305
5600 305
6000 305
And I tried both settings, I felt like the "small cap" settings worked better in the higher revs, however I saw more spark knock using it.
Especially in the 3500rpm + range.
However it may have been my current fueling woes...
Right now I pretty much hit a brick wall at 5300 rpm, if you get bored, feel free to take a look at my log file attached.
(my bin file is a few posts up)
Also my wideband is not powered up, sensor went flat lined a few weeks ago..
I keep wondering if I have my injector settings wrong, right now I'm running 80lb injectors (TJ-11) @ 14psi
I also have a fuel pump for an 86 tpi installed.
And I am not vacuumed referenced yet, but I have an aeromotive unit sitting in my tool box once I figure out AN fittings and flaring tubes...
If needed I can find my camshaft specs as well, they are not as aggressive as Corv3tt3's, but it's relatively close (if I recall correctly).
And I tried both settings, I felt like the "small cap" settings worked better in the higher revs, however I saw more spark knock using it. Especially in the 3500rpm + range.
It is because it is adding to the spark advance. The higher latency of the small cap table means that the spark fires sooner.
Right now I pretty much hit a brick wall at 5300 rpm, if you get bored, feel free to take a look at my log file attached.
You are either at a high elevation (4,000 ft+), or there is a restriction in the air-cleaner/intake-duct area. The MAP is dropping as low as 83 KPa at WOT. Although there appears to be a WOT that shows a 2-3 shift at 5600 RPM.
Yeah high elevation (SLC Utah), and that log was gathered while driving on a higher road in the valley, also going up an incline...
The stock cam used in the Crossfire was the same as the LM1 350 and later L69 305s. I also believe the 85 and 86 Corvette TPI and 1985 Camaro TPI used the same cam. With the stock cast iron smog heads in a 350 it is pretty much done at 4,500-5,000 rpm especially with the stock valve springs. The stock GM HEI modules are also not good for much more than 4,500 rpm. I was hitting a brick wall with my old siamessed runner vortec head 383 that had a nice roller cam in it. Used a DUI Dyna Mod Module and it came alive at high rpm. The factory modules run very limited dwell time and at higher RPM and demands can cause ignition misfiring.
In a 350 with smog heads you are going to need about 224/234 @ .050 and .470/.480 lift to make useable power to 5,500 and beyond.
I have a set of port matched edlebrock heads, valve springs are pretty much the max i can run with the camshaft, i also have long tube headers with 3/4 in primaries, 3in collectors, 3in exhaust, dual 3in xpipes, flowmaster 40's with 3in inlets, and dual 2.5in outlets.
I think my only restrictions would be the throttle bodies, and the cold air channel in the hood.
i can find the specs on the cam as well, however for lift i got roughly .500 total lift with the 1.65 ratio rollers.
Camshaft specs
Crane PN: 114132
Cam Style: Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,600-5,400
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 210
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 216
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 210 int./216 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 270
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 276
Advertised Duration: 270 int./276 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.440 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.454 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.440 int./0.454 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees): 114
--
Sounds like it could be part of my limitation, however I also noticed that the warmer the engine is, the better it revs high.
I had no problems doing a 6,000 RPM 1-2 shift when the engine was roughly 190 degrees F the other day...
Quick question for the ebl gurus. I cannot get the alky control feature to work so I figure I must be missing something in the settings. It's a p4 with the recommended relay. Problem is I start the car up hit the test button n nothing happens. If I physically ground the signal control wire going into the relay, the pump comes on so that tells me the ecm isn't triggering.
Quick question for the ebl gurus. I cannot get the alky control feature to work so I figure I must be missing something in the settings. It's a p4 with the recommended relay. Problem is I start the car up hit the test button n nothing happens. If I physically ground the signal control wire going into the relay, the pump comes on so that tells me the ecm isn't triggering.
Check this parameter:
Alky - Test Duty Cycle
And make sure that you are using ECM pin F2 to drive the relay.
Although this is most likely the issue, un-set this option flag:
Option Word 4 - Bit 1 - DualA
That flag sets up whether the AIR system is a one valve or a two valve setup. Flagging it as a single valve system enables the alky control on pin F2. That pin on a dual valve AIR system controls the port valve.
We missed documenting this in the calibration doc.
Thanks I knew I had to be missing something. That solved one problem and led to the next. It's working now but no matter what I put in the table it starts spraying at 100 kpa. I messed with it most of the day changing values with no apparent change in output. It comes on at 0 vacuum evey time.
I tried 25, 50, 75, and 100% test duty cycle with no apparent change. I also zeroed the table and that didn't work either. I'm stumped. Does the signal wire need to be shielded?
Change the high way mode enable MPH to 50 -55 MPH:
HiWy - Min MPH
If the stumble occurs as the throttle is being opened is AE. If it occurs at steady state then it is something else.
Zip/compress it first then upload.
RBob.
1989 Suburban
EBL Flash (duh!)
L31-R Long Block Assemblies 12530283
RV Morse Bored TBI
Salad Bowel Mod
Wieand Street Warrior Intake
Fuel Pressure set at 19psi
Matched and flowed 62lbs injectors
Doug Thorley Tri-Y Headers
2.5 into 3" Flowmaster exhaust
Rebuilt 700r4
Rebuilt NP241 Transfer case
3.73 Gears 31" Tall Tires
Heated o2 (Denso)
I have done at least 15 learns and the truck has responded well..
Future Mods..
IAT Integration
Thanks!
I installed the heated O2 and moved the parameter as you suggested. I still have light throttle issues. It does seem that it is constant throttle and not just as the throttle is being opened. As it shifts into OD it seems the worst. If I manually shift it runs pretty good.
Need more VE Learns. There are areas that are too rich which is driving the fuel trims down (INT & BLM). Then as the RPM & MAP transverse to an OK area the AFR goes lean.
It takes a while for the fuel trims to increase which is why it is lean for so long.
Need more VE Learns. There are areas that are too rich which is driving the fuel trims down (INT & BLM). Then as the RPM & MAP transverse to an OK area the AFR goes lean.
It takes a while for the fuel trims to increase which is why it is lean for so long.
I have been playing more with the timings, I switched over to a timing table from an 89 vette, it's pretty happy.
I also noticed the SA - Latency settings in the F_3001 bin are even smaller than the settings for the large cap?
I have a new WB sensor on it's way for this weekend, and I also bought the bung extender to see if I can avoid burning this one up...
One thing I have never done was to do a open loop wideband learn, mostly wanting to focus on WOT and higher RPM.
I had a hard time finding info, I run something like this?
a) min & max BLM to 128
b) min and max INT to 128 (not really required but nice).
c) closed loop enable temperature to 151°C (max possible)
Well i ended up leaving the other settings alone and disabled closed loop.
I went for a nice long drive up a long canyon road, i ended up pretty high in elevation...
it was neat seeing the effect elevation has on the map.
Just idling it went up a few points...
I did my best WOT on the way home, using some other cars and bullet bikes as a radar shield...
EBL let me know I ran out of ve at 4krpm and 80kpa...
So either i have some other settings wrong, or it's time to install that areomotive vacuum referenced regulator...
So i put an order into summit for a nice assortment of AN fittings and some adapters that will hopefully work out...
EBL let me know I ran out of ve at 4krpm and 80kpa...
So either i have some other settings wrong, or it's time to install that areomotive vacuum referenced regulator...
What is the maximum injector duty cycle (DC%)? If it is under 85% you can increase the BPC vs VAC table to get a larger PW. Once the DC% starts going over 85% it is best to increase the fuel pressure for more fuel.
So either i have some other settings wrong, or it's time to install that areomotive vacuum referenced regulator...
VAFPR will not add more fuel at WOT. It will reduce fuel(FP) at idle allowing better control of idle quality. When I had TBI I was at 22lbs (80 lb ers) for WOT and around 14 lbs at idle. VAFPR appeared to help daily drivability. My port fuel conversion is what dramatically improved drivability
So my understanding is that I need more fuel pressure to get more fuel, but if I go to high then my idle suffers?
Right now I'm right near 15psi, idles ok but my current regulator spring is maxed out.
I bought the VAFPR used off of ebay for a good price, came with some fittings and a pressure gauge installed.
I might as well find a use for it.
I'm still working to understand everything, however my DC at WOT never went past 70% if I remember correctly.
I upped the BPC vs Vac a bit, I'll see how it does on the drive home.
and incase I did not mention it, I have 80lb injectors (TJ-11).
You can purchase a stronger spring from top down solutions. Stock I think is good for about 18 lbs max. If you ask it to be stronger it will blow diaphragm. TDS spring I recall is good for 15-25 or so. Aeromotive has two springs one is 10-25 and other 25-60. for part 13301 VAFPR.
You can purchase a stronger spring from top down solutions. Stock I think is good for about 18 lbs max. If you ask it to be stronger it will blow diaphragm. TDS spring I recall is good for 15-25 or so. Aeromotive has two springs one is 10-25 and other 25-60. for part 13301 VAFPR.
Thanks,
The areomotive unit i have should be setup for 10-25.
i was told it came off of a CFI vette...
For the factory FPR, I'm planning on connecting this to the fuel exit on the driver side throttle body, run a hard line through the areomotive FPR, and then connect it to the return fuel line.
I'm thinking i can just leave the factory regulator in place for now.
would that pop the diaphragm on the factory regulator?
And if i make a block off plate, would i need to install a blockoff for both throttle bodies, or just the driver side?
Regulator I removed and used a fabbed block off plate. The accumulator is also removed.
When you crank up pressure in stock reg too far it allows max pressure of pump which is I recall 50 psi(tpi pump) and blows diaphragm. So on stock reg do not compress spring to max.
Correct on return side. Add a FP gauge as well. I tapped into the brake booster vac bung. Nipple stands vertical.
For the factory FPR, I'm planning on connecting this to the fuel exit on the driver side throttle body, run a hard line through the areomotive FPR, and then connect it to the return fuel line.
Since you are re-plumbing the fuel system, it is best to parallel plumb the fuel. Use block off plates on both TBI units.
Take the main feed line to a Y block to feed each TBI unit separately.
The return from each TBI goes to a side port on the external FPR. Bottom port goes back to the tank. Everyone that has done this has claimed it improved how the engine runs.
I've been reading through the last 30 pages or so of this thread (version 2.1+ on the EBL flash) and after trying to figure this out myself for the last couple weeks. I installed the flash last fall after a t56 conversion and after learning how to use it over the winter, am coming up stumped on four topics:
Vehicle info:
1987 gta, 5.7L TPI L98, t56 conversion with 11.5 lb fidanza aluminum flywheel and iron heads
MAF -> MAP conversion with zeitronix zt-3 wideband installed at y connection in exhaust
175,000km engine that could use a rebuild eventually (startup smoke w/new valve seals, 2 cylinders at 140, others 160+)
'7165 ECU, EBL Flash Version 2.4
1. I have an idle feedback loop
This is a common issue from what I've read. I've done several VE learns as instructed in the docs that came with my EBL flash, starting from the 3006 bin. I've tried smoothing the resultant tune and flattened out the low map/low rpm area. It will idle fine at 625rpm until it gets into a feedback loop and begins oscillating in increasing loops until the engine dies. Should i be flattening out a wider section of the table, or am i missing something else?
2. The car starts easily, but does not catch
I switched the intake to a 91-92 speed density intake and had to delete the 9th injector as a result. The car now starts easily, but will not catch and idle unless i hold the rpm up for 5 seconds or so. I know i have to add fuel somewhere in the VE low speed table in the low rpm/high map corner, but where??
3. My VE Low speed table seems off
most tunes I've seen on this board seem to have more fuel than my map does at Low MAP/high RPM on the VE low speed table. The VE learn subtracted fuel from this area before stabilizing where it is now. I'm trying to understand what this area is for and if i should be concerned. This area is highway cruising, no? The wideband stays between 14-16 AFR at cruising speeds, but that's visually. I don't know how to pair the WB data with the VE tables yet for analysis. Datalog and the smoothed tune with a flattened idle area from tonight are attached to this post. A highway datalog from the VE learned, but non-smoothed tune, can be found here.
4. I have a digital dash and want to enable the shift light
I re-pinned the ECU and converted the MAF to MAP from RBob's instructions. From reading the documentation, I understand that this will disable the shift light, as it is now connected on the same circuit as the CCP. Logically, it should then turn on if the CCP output is now off pin A3 and enabled. It never does. For kicks, i changed the output to every other output pin option documented (shift light = 0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14) and it did not illuminate. What am i missing? I suspect i need to move another wire, but do not even know where to begin. The dash otherwise works as intended and I set the shift rpm at 2000 for the test.
Side Note: the speedometer readout will jump down 30kph periodically on the highway datalog for the VE learned tune. This just started recently, and i haven't yet figured out why. Connectors are tight and wires are new. Loose pin somewhere maybe?
Image 1: VE Low speed After VE Learn, Before Smoothing
Image 2: VE Low speed After smoothing
Image 3: VE high speed After VE Learn, Before Smoothing
Last edited by RunawayRadio; 06-01-2017 at 10:37 PM.
rBob, I'm replacing my cam soon and fueling will definitely be different to support new power. After looking at the two spread sheets old early version and the newer version, they appear to be different on the BPW. They both calculate 77, but the newer one calculates 75 and 76 WOT. Is this difference because of the vacuum referenced regulator settings? Just wondering which is correct? I've been using the newer one for a while now and the motor runs awesome, but just saw that they were different recently. Thanks and didn't mean to hijack the thread, but thought maybe it might help others out for fueling as well. Thanks. This new cam should be pretty nice.
rBob, I'm replacing my cam soon and fueling will definitely be different to support new power. After looking at the two spread sheets old early version and the newer version, they appear to be different on the BPW.
Not sure where the first SS came from, but it's conversion from #/hr to gm/sec is off.
OK, thank you RBob. I don't remember where it came from, but it was way back when Ken was still running the crossfire injection vault forum. I'll just continue using newer one which works great.
According to the WB it is too lean. This is what is causing the rolling idle. Any chance the NB O2 sensor is silicone poisoned? That will cause it to report rich.
2. The car starts easily, but does not catch
Look at a data log of a start up. Is the reported AFR reasonable? It may be that it needs more cranking IAC.
3. My VE Low speed table seems off
It looks OK, highest is about 89% with the lowest at about 46%. There is a slight hollow to the idle area, I would work on that for #1 listed.
4. I have a digital dash and want to enable the shift light
To use A3 (CCP), need to disable CCP via the option flag. In stock form the shift light is on pin A7, TAN/BLK. If this is where the shift light wire remains then set the shift light output scalar to 8.
According to the WB it is too lean. This is what is causing the rolling idle. Any chance the NB O2 sensor is silicone poisoned? That will cause it to report rich.
Not to my knowledge, since it is a brand new sensor and I made sure not to touch it on install. however, I just realized the WB wasn't enabled for the VE learns. oops.
Look at a data log of a start up. Is the reported AFR reasonable? It may be that it needs more cranking IAC.
Will futz with this tomorrow and try to figure that out.
It looks OK, highest is about 89% with the lowest at about 46%. There is a slight hollow to the idle area, I would work on that for #1 listed.
Awesome. It's heartening to know i'm not completely out to lunch. I was able to (mostly) stabilize the idle, knowing now i was close to begin with.
To use A3 (CCP), need to disable CCP via the option flag. In stock form the shift light is on pin A7, TAN/BLK. If this is where the shift light wire remains then set the shift light output scalar to 8.
I actually tried this, but outputting on A7 is the Auto TCC lockup, correct? I reused the stock TCC lockup wire (tan/blk) with a resistor for the reverse lockout control. I did the conversion last october, so I can't remember now if the wire was moved as part of the revised layout for the EBL. The instructions state that the shift light pin no longer functions as intended, so I'll have to backtrack on the pin out diagram I think.
On a side note, your N/V Ratio calcs from way back in 2006 helped me figure out the correct entries I needed - 11 years later .
I actually tried this, but outputting on A7 is the Auto TCC lockup, correct? I reused the stock TCC lockup wire (tan/blk) with a resistor for the reverse lockout control. I did the conversion last october, so I can't remember now if the wire was moved as part of the revised layout for the EBL. The instructions state that the shift light pin no longer functions as intended, so I'll have to backtrack on the pin out diagram I think.
OK, so the CCP and the TCC/ReverseLock outputs are in use. Can leave them that way. Use pin C1 for the shift light and 4 for the Output Select scalar.
On a side note, your N/V Ratio calcs from way back in 2006 helped me figure out the correct entries I needed - 11 years later .
Since you are re-plumbing the fuel system, it is best to parallel plumb the fuel. Use block off plates on both TBI units.
Take the main feed line to a Y block to feed each TBI unit separately.
The return from each TBI goes to a side port on the external FPR. Bottom port goes back to the tank. Everyone that has done this has claimed it improved how the engine runs.
RBob.
Thanks, that's what i ended up doing.
Took about $250 worth of AN fittings before i finally figured it all out, good thing that about $200 of that is returnable...
The second hand areomotive FPR was already set to the max psi @ 21lbs.
I used the utility and set it for 80lb injectors with vac ref @21psi, and took it for a little drive for some VE learns.
So far it's doing better, and instead of running out of VE @ 4,000 rpm, i made it all the way to 5300rpm @70kpa.
I'll do some data logging later to see where my Injector duty cycle is at...
Question concerning flashing in ve learns. Was reading the some posts back about the reasoning behind not having the VE Learns change the tune in a "live" format. I agree with the logic behind that. However, how difficult would it be in the programing to maybe streamline the process of ending the ve and loading that tune?
Right now it has several steps which can be difficult/frustrating to do in a car(while stopped of course) with different laptops/tablets.
Could there be the addition of a single button to end ve learn and flash that tune into the next bank? That way it doesn't leave you dead on the side of the road as easily as live tuning could and you can easily go back to the previous bank/tune with one more click.
No need to stop the learn, it is stopped when you go to the Flash display. And, the VE Learn fills in the BIN filename for you. Just need to select the bank and click Apply.
Hello All!
I am running EBL Flash. I just converted from R4 AC compressor to a FLX7 sanden, my pressures are good and the AC cools great when I am stopped or in Park. When I am doing light driving the AC will click on and off but stay off most of the time so the AC doesn't cool down unless I am stopped or in Park. I thought it may be the Low AC pressure switch except for the in Park or being stopped. Am I missing a setting that would cause the AC compressor to kick off?
I have adjusted the AC Enable Low and High Disable settings.
I have attached the data log and the current bin I am using.
Hello All!
I am running EBL Flash. I just converted from R4 AC compressor to a FLX7 sanden, my pressures are good and the AC cools great when I am stopped or in Park. When I am doing light driving the AC will click on and off but stay off most of the time so the AC doesn't cool down unless I am stopped or in Park. I thought it may be the Low AC pressure switch except for the in Park or being stopped. Am I missing a setting that would cause the AC compressor to kick off?
This the '87? If so in stock configuration the ECM doesn't control the A/C compressor. The dash switch and low pressure cut-out switch has the job of running it.
You can re-wire things so that the A/C compressor is ECM controlled.
This the '87? If so in stock configuration the ECM doesn't control the A/C compressor. The dash switch and low pressure cut-out switch has the job of running it.
You can re-wire things so that the A/C compressor is ECM controlled.
RBob.
Thanks RBob! Yes it is an 87 350 tpi, how would I control the compressor with the ecm? I see on the pinouts from the ecm that pin A2 is for the ac, would that be the wire I could control the compressor clutch from the ecm?
Thanks RBob! Yes it is an 87 350 tpi, how would I control the compressor with the ecm? I see on the pinouts from the ecm that pin A2 is for the ac, would that be the wire I could control the compressor clutch from the ecm?
I've used EBL Flash for a year or two with pretty decent results, having no prior experience with tuning. Now I'm the new owner of a 84 Buick Regal Turbo. I think the car is running rich as its only getting about 17 MPG on the highway with a very light foot.
I need to buy a data logger. Then I was thinking instead of dropping 250 bucks on a data logger and then still having no way to make any adjustment, maybe I just step up and get EBL SFI 6, so I can log and tune as needed.
I haven't seen many posts in this thread from Turbo Buick tuners.
- Do the Buick guys use a different board/forum?
- Is there anything different I'd need to know about in using SFI6 over EBL FLASH?
- Does SFI 6 come with a sample/stock bin files specifically for a Turbo Buick to get me started?
05-09-2017, 10:08 AM
