Dominic Sorresso

Always an interesting discussion regarding prop gains. And its so overlooked. I have found it to be a useful tool (together w O2 window) especially when tuning for more aggressive cams.
RBob is right of course on listening to the motor as part of knowing when the PG is right. When u get get a nice smooth monotone purr coming from the exhaust. Makes all the gas u burned tuning worth it.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Ah ok that makes sense. I'll start using the learns more now since I've adjusted all the cAFR tables to where I want them

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Does the engine like the new commanded values?

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

So far yes, as I said before it's only really happy in the typical 13.5- 14.5 range. So I set a lot of the commanded non PE cAFR tables to suit. So now I just need to get a couple learns in and get it tightened up. I do know that it runs pig rich at coasting and when I let off the throttle but during any throttle play it feels fine. One thing I've noticed is that when I first start it up it feels like it's loading up on fuel and I have to rev it a few times to clear it out

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Good, this isn't really unusual with that range of AFR. It will hurt mileage but typically an engine likes that range.

Once the fueling is closer can try different SA values. SA is where the power is found, getting the AFR is the right range keeps the engine in one piece. Note that the EBL systems have a PE mode fuel enrichment over time.

Helps keep the engine from melting...

RBob.

Hiemarch

iTrader: (2)

so here's another problem in this Juggernaut of a thread. a lot of good info on this one but a real pain to filter through!

To my problem. I've been running EBL flash for a few years now and I have never been able to get it to idle with the AC on. it would stall intermittently on me. Well now this year the engine stalls out on me intermittently any time be it on idle in park, or in gear (much more frequently). attached is a data log of what is going on.

I changed the plugs last week and the back 4 where covered in soot so changed to a warmer plug

The stall marks are at 2 min 54 sec, 1 min 02 sec, and at 16 sec.

I just changed the bosh wb o2 sensor since it kept pinning itself at 10:1 after running for a few seconds and that seemed to resolve my o2 sensor problem and I do not have a NB o2 installed at this time.

Attached is the data log as well as the current tune that is in the car. now some specifics on the engine:

377 cu in small block
11.2:1 CR
PBM strike force aluminium heads, 200 CC
Earson 110042 cam specs:
Duration @ .050: 230/230
Duration Advertised: 284/284
Gross Lift: .453/.453 (I have 1.6 rockers so the lift is .482)
Lobe Center: 114
installed 6deg advance
36lbs injectors, 46 psi fuel pressure
ported/Siamese 1/4 way down supper ram intake
1000CFM throttle body
1 3/4 stainless long tube headers

I had to change the extension on the idle stalling in gear.doc, it is supposed to be a .dat file.

I'm actually starting to be at my witts end with trying to get this driveable especially since there is nobody within a 5 hour drive of me that do GM efi tuning to help. The Holley HP computer is starting to look better and better every day unfortunately.

side not I've been a professional mechanic and build pretty nice engines on the side for the past 20 years so there's a few things that I know. but obviously I'm getting stumped on my own toys.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Try the thread search feature. It is located above right, under the thread page numbers.

It would be better to find out why the back 4 are soot covered. A warmer plug is a band aid. Are you sure it is soot and not oil? It is easy to pull oil from the lifter valley through the intake manifold gaskets.

Are you using a long reach spark plug?

Not sure how that will help when the engine has mechanical issues...

RBob.

Hiemarch

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Rob, I have been going though the thread. problem I'm getting is trying to figure out why the random shut downs on the engine. to answer your question. the original plugs I put on where too cold for the engine, I though they would have been the best bet and where there for years. I'm now at the standard heat range and yes they are a long reach plug, needed due to the heads.

I was not clear enough about the plugs, all 8 where sooty but the back 4 where the worse and there is no oil consumption at all on the engine, it was running quite rich on me. I've dealt with oil getting sucked in before due to a bad intake casting from accell! (cost me a lower end due to oil starvation).

I am planing on pulling the engine this winter though to do a freshen up on it since I have the time and space to do so. the motor has been together now for 6 years and off idle runs like a scared rabbit and pulls hard.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The engine is definitely struggling to run. There are a couple of tune changes you can make to help. The stalling is due to the MAP going too high at idle, change this parameter to 78 KPa:

MALF33 - MAP Hi BARO Limit (1bar)

Then in the Low Speed VE table there is a small trench at 60 KPa, from 800 - 1100 RPM. Use the graphing and bring it up and level it out some with the surrounding areas.

There is a 50 RPM idle speed bump for when the A/C is on. May need to increase that, check to see what the MAP does when the A/C is on.

It doesn't look like the injector compensation values have been changed (?). Do you have the correct ones for the injectors being used?

Also, looking at the IAC during idle, there is likely a vacuum leak. The Super Ram is notorious for that. Be worth smoking the intake. While doing that take the oil fill cap off, if smoke exits there then the intake gaskets are leaking into the valley.

Once sealed up adjust the throttle stop screw for 20 - 25 IAC steps on a warm engine, no other loads, in P/N.

RBob.

Hiemarch

iTrader: (2)

Thanks rob, so changing the Malf33 instantly took care of the stalling issue, thanks, I did the other changes that you sugested and I now have AC with no stalling in drive. I bumped it to 75rpm and the iac went to 60 with the fan on and ac. so I'm happy with that.

I dont have a smoke machine so went the route of the propane bottle around the intake and there was no bump to the idle. will try to find one to test out your route to see if possibly there is a leak in the lifter valley (which I doubt but its cheap to rule out).

on the injector compensation you lost me there, I dont belive I've ever changed those and the injectors I'm currently using are 36lbs off an LS motor I belive if that helps any its been a while I just remember they are smaller than original and white hehe. what would I have to change on those to get closer to perfect idle?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It would be beat to set them correctly. But need to get the data. May be able to find it on one of the LS web sites.

RBob.

Hiemarch

iTrader: (2)

Found a wall of text of data for the injectors that I have I have the bosh 36lbs white giants PN 0280155968. So with all the information there what gets used with in Flash? none of the data really seems to correlate together.

translation would be appreciated

RBob

iTrader: (1)

We have data for those injectors. Note that the '968 (a typo) is the 42 #/hr skinny greens.

The '868 is the skinny whites.

The problem with most of the data you found is that they didn't list the axis annunciation. Unless you know that we can't use the data. Here it is derived from the supplied data sheet:

Injector Data Sheet: 280-155-868 : LU34, 34 #/hr Skinny

Fuel Pressure: 44 psi
Flow rate: 35.5 #/hr

Minimum PW @ 44 psi: 729 usec

Offset Compensation versus Battery Voltage:
6.4 Volts: 3105 usec
8.0 Volts: 2046 usec
9.6 Volts: 1521 usec
11.2 Volts: 1204 usec
12.8 Volts: 970 usec
14.4 Volts: 785 usec
15.0 Volts: 752 usec

Short PW Compensation versus Pulse Width:
0.015 msec: -192 usec
0.244 msec: -152 usec
0.488 msec: -109 usec
0.732 msec: -67 usec
0.976 msec: -24 usec
1.220 msec: 0 usec
1.460 msec: 0 usec
1.708 msec: 0 usec
1.950 msec: 0 usec
2.197 msec: 0 usec
2.440 msec: 0 usec
2.685 msec: 0 usec
2.929 msec: 0 usec
3.170 msec: 0 usec
3.410 msec: 0 usec
3.660 msec: 0 usec
3.900 msec: 0 usec

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

How would we add these in Tunerpro RT? I have Bosch 3 36lb injectors as well

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Populate these two tables:

INJ - Injector Correction Offset
INJ - Small PW Correction - PORT Only

The small PW table gets zeroed out.

The offset table, use the 12.8V value at 0 volts. Then the 6.4V value from 1.6V through 6.4V

Extrapolate the 15.0V value up through the remaining voltages.

RBob.

Hiemarch

iTrader: (2)

I love the basis of this thread!!! get a problem sorted out, somebody else realist they have the same problem and suddenly has a solution without having to ask it

Next question about injector settings what is the goal of the "single fire mode PW" table and should I be changing those with the injectors that I have?

Thanks Rob, putting those numbers in the tune tonight, will post tomorrow what results where.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Normal injection mode is double fire, that is two injections per engine cycle.

When the injector PW gets small the ECM can revert to single fire mode. This is one injection event per engine cycle. The ECM doubles the PW, so that it is larger, and fires the injectors half as often.

The "INJ - Single Fire Mode PW - PORT Only" values define when the ECM switches between single and double fire mode. Lower then the Enter value and the ECM goes single fire. Once the PW goes above the Exit value it changes back to double fire mode. Note that both of those PW values are based on the double fire PW.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

sorry Bob you'll have to bear with me as i'm not sure i'm getting on what you're saying.


so do I copy the table you posted into the small PW table or do I completely zero out the whole table?

As for the offset table how exactly do I do this? please forgive the newbish questions, I work graves and my brain is fried lol.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The small PW table gets zeroed out.

Enter the values listed in the post at the voltages shown. Then fill in the lower voltage areas as posted, and extrapolate out the higher voltages. I like to use the graph in TP for that portion.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Is this what you mean? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by extrapolate. How do I do that?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Startpage -> "define extrapolate"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extrapolate

Using the graph feature in TunerPro is the easiest way to do this. Note the before and after screen shots.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Ok I see that now, so What about the pics I posted?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The before picture values are from your screenshot. The after screenshot is what those table values should be.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Ok so the first pic is off the offset table and I copied what you had posted earlier, I just need to extrapolate the values after 16.0 volts and the second pic is what the small pw should be correct? If so then I got it lol

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Ok I added the tables you posted and did a few VE learns and I feel like the VE is damn near perfect aside from a few areas.

Since I changed the offset table my AE has taken a dump. If I try to stab the gas it goes WAY lean then straightens out. Also, it seems to want to cut out and stall when it comes to a stop or at idle in gear. I have to put it in neutral to keep it from dying.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

If it is lean when you stab it you need to increase the AE pulse width. I also seem to remember some codes having IAC opening AE. When the IAC counts rise it gives a small shot of AE. I seem to remember either the EBL or the GM TBI PCM having it and having to more than double the value when I put the Weiand 177 and Dart Iron Eagle 230s on my old G20. I had an agressive DFCO setup on that tune and coming out of DFCO it would run really lean and rough. To fix it I had to add AE to both the lower KPA MAP in the 20-40 KPA range and the IAC AE.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Now which table would that be? Also, to increase AE I need to LOWER the numbers in the tables or RAISE them? Would that be in the AE RPM multiplier or CTS multiplier tables?

shippman

Can the output of an electric fuel pressure sending unit be fed into the EBL to be displayed in the WUD? Anyone tried it? what sending unit did you use and what was the setup in the EBL? I'm running a TBI 350.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Yes it can, I used an Autometer 3 wire sending unit that was rated 0-60 psi. The 3 wires are Sensor Reference Ground, +5vdc Sensor Reference, Output Signal.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I would first work on the "AE - TPS PW" table. This is due to this part of the tune being affected by the injector compensation values.

Increasing the values in the PW table(s) will increase the volume of AE.

RBob.

shippman

Thanks, neighbor.... I'll give it a try.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Ok that I can do. Should I just start off small and work my way up? Would I have to do more learns? As of now the car really feels good just driving around, it's the AE that is giving the issue

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Here's my latest datalog. tell me what I might be doing wrong. i'm still having a little issue with it trying to stall out in gear.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Need to fix the low speed VE table. And look for a vacuum leak. There are times at idle that the IAC is at 0, and at other times it is in the 30's.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

That's strange, it doesnt seem to have a high idle. Ive even had to raise the idle with the set screw because sometimes it feels like it wants to die if I leave it idling long enough.

juan89

Does any one have the injector data for 50 LB MSD /Delphi injectors ?

Juan

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

As it idles, the engine will get warmer, and the Learned area where your kpa hovers will start to move around because the air becomes less dense. RBob is telling you to adjust your lower VE table in your idle area so it does not deviate from your Learned areas, as well as check for vacuum leaks because a reading from 30, to 0, to 30 again shows the IAC struggling to maintain its' command because air is possibly entering from elsewhere. You'll want a nice all around average. Back off on the idle screw, let the IAC control your idle, so when you're fully warmed up, ease up on the fast idle screw until you see around 25-35 IAC steps. The number itself isn't special, it's just a good placement for it when you consider its' scale...

Welcome aboard (EBL wise).

- Rob

Faolan

Anyone have a link to a website that describes what every bin parameter does? Thought I had it bookmarked but guess not. can't find it now

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Start->All Programs->EBL Flash->Calibration Help

Opens in your default browser. Dependent upon which EBL system one has, the "EBL Flash" above can be "EBL P4 Flash", or "EBL SFI-6 Flash."

RBob.

Faolan

I need to get the mph right on the ecm. I don't care about the speedometer being right. What would need to change with PPM?

p.s). Does EBLshow the current rpm or what the tach says?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

VSS - Pulse Per Mile

The ECM uses the time between DRPs to calculate the engine RPM. It is quite accurate.

RBob.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

So I only have one O2 sensor bung in my car. I plan to have another bung added, but I didnt think to do that before I started tearing it apart and putting new stuff on it.

So I need to get my car either:

1. Running/tuned well enough to make a 20 mile round trip to my exhaust guy to have him put a new bung on it. I propose to do this by not running in closed loop, ignoring the narrowband O2 signal altogether (Is this a bad idea?) until I can get one in the car.

2. Pull the y-pipe off the car and take it to my exhaust guy to weld the bung on.

The second option is extra work, and a pain in the butt. So it comes down to what my odds are that I can get the car running somewhat reasonably without the nb sensor and/or without closed loop.

So am i going to be able to get it to drive reasonably without closed loop? Is simulated narrowband plenty good enough for a while? Or do I need to yank the y-pipe off and have a bung added to it?



Also, I have a push button start. How important is it that the ebl receives a crank signal?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure how to answer your first question. As in it you mention a narrowband O2 signal. But then later state it is simulated (?).

Which would mean that there is an active WB setup in place. Whichever it is, a NB O2, or a WB O2, use it to tune the engine via auto VE Learn.

As first it is usually better to use closed loop and a NB O2 signal. This allows the ECM to actively change the fueling. Of which the WUD can use to do a VE Learn.

The crank signal comes off the starter solenoid, so it will be present unless it was removed. It is used as part of the fuel pump relay diagnostics and for fuel enrichment when in limp mode while cranking.

Other then that it isn't required.

RBob.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I have an LC-2, which has a simulated narrowband output. I also have a narrowband O2 sensor. I only have one sensor bung in my exhaust system, however. What do you recommend in that scenario? I just need to get it driveable enough to get it to a shop, then I will have both from there on.

And yes, the purple wire is not attached to the starter solenoid.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If the NB O2 sensor will work in the current location it is best to use it.

RBob.

shippman

Sorry, another VSS question. If my cable driven VSS claims to be a 4000 ppm square wave sensor, can I connect it directly to the ECM A10 (No buffer/DRAC)? I would then change VSS pulse per mile to 4004 ppm. Will this work?

I need 4000 ppm for my Cruise control unit.

Thanks in advance

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, that should work.

RBob.

Faolan

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Just that small corner on the lower left. Looks to be from 400 through 900 RPM and 20 through 35 KPa.

RBob.

Faolan

Idles like glass now! Something that's been puzzling me though is that sometimes my kc will just shoot up to 1024 out of nowhere and sometimes get knock at 6325 rpm even though 5000 is redline .. bad esc maybe?