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Grab a data log and check it against the TCC parameters in the BIN. See if there is any time it is supposed to lock.
RBob.
Turns out it was the VSS pulse setting. I had changed it and thought I had flashed the computer. When I took it out for a data log I noticed that the WUD speedometer was not reading correctly so I rechecked the pulse setting and it was set at 4004. I changed it to 2002. and when I took it back out for a drive the spedometer on the WUD was working and the TCC was locking up as it is supposed to. Now to start doing some WB-O2 learns. The car runs and drives pretty good and the WB O2 readings are running fairly close to 14.7 when cruising and at idle. Went to a cruise night last night and it ran very well.
Any opinions on the Injector Tuner for EFI – Optimum EFI by Affordable Fuel Injection? I have EBL Flash and the AFI theory seems sound enough, price is not a gouge.
Any opinions on the Injector Tuner for EFI – Optimum EFI by Affordable Fuel Injection? I have EBL Flash and the AFI theory seems sound enough, price is not a gouge.
seems kinda gimicky... I seen another post somewhere about it... no one was too thrilled about it... of course I doubt anybody talking about it had actually tried it... not sure if EBL would be able to run those type of injectors?
I am pretty sure I have a signal issue that is causing my tach and ECM to get some bad readings.
I am going to break out an oscilloscope and find out.
Donminic- how did you wire the MSD 6A into your ‘84 Vette? I’m trying to figure out how to integrate the three wires that go to the ECM into the overall schematic for a 6A unit.
I am pretty sure I have a signal issue that is causing my tach and ECM to get some bad readings.
I am going to break out an oscilloscope and find out.
Donminic- how did you wire the MSD 6A into your ‘84 Vette? I’m trying to figure out how to integrate the three wires that go to the ECM into the overall schematic for a 6A unit.
Boy that’s going back a ways. Think I ran the Tach signal from the MSD UNIT TO THE ECM. I don’t believe the MSD “integrated” w the ECM. BASICALLY, it was wired w the 4 wire connector for the distributor and then to the ECM for the DRPs. I was also using the MSD ignition coil and the Accel ignition module. But make sure to use heat sink paste on the module.
one other thing is that I eliminated the condenser for a consistent tach signal,
Boy that’s going back a ways. Think I ran the Tach signal from the MSD UNIT TO THE ECM. I don’t believe the MSD “integrated” w the ECM. BASICALLY, it was wired w the 4 wire connector for the distributor and then to the ECM for the DRPs. I was also using the MSD ignition coil and the Accel ignition module. But make sure to use heat sink paste on the module.
one other thing is that I eliminated the condenser for a consistent tach signal,
I have a DUI distributor, coil, cap, rotor, and module.
Something like this?
I had thought the module would be eliminated- but I guess not.
Been a while since I have done any tuning on the car. Hoping to make some actual progress on it this time as I have never been able to get good results after the cam/heads/intake swap.
Anyways before I get into revisiting the tune I was wondering if I am still running the latest firmware and WUD versions. I've got WUD 3.0i and ECM Firmware says 2.2 at bottom of WUD. Running a EBL-Flash I purchased second hand in 2012-2013ish.
How does one go about updating the firmware on the ecm itself?
Latest version is 2.4, well worth upgrading to it.
On our website is the Update page, from there go to the EBL Flash page. Download the zip file found at the top of that page.
Save any BINs you want to keep. Use the Windows Add/Remove dialog and uninstall the current EBL Flash install. In the zip file you downloaded double click on the .msi (MicroSolt Install) file to start the install.
The other two files in the zip is the update program and the instructions. Takes a couple of minutes to do the update. Also, the update program can also update any of the BINs you set to the side.
Do you have a updated version of the base bins for the latest update? I know I could just update the ones I have when doing the install but I want a complete fresh set so I know nothing has been changed in them. I can email you through the site Bob to get them.
Also, between the Flash and Flash-II other then the comm upgrade is there any other changes? At some point I need to get another ecm so I am not using one in two vehicles and if its worth it I might go ahead and just get a Flash-II when that time comes.
The latest install is a full install. BINs, docs, XDF and so on.
As for the EBL Flash-II, it runs the same firmware and uses the same install as the previous EBL Flash. The only real change is the move to a USB interface. It just needed to be done as the previous serial interface was obsolete.
So i have a question about SA and stall converters. With my LT383 I'm running an XFI280 cam and an Edge 3600 stall. I really feel like it needs more SA for bottom end response. It also feels a little soft in between shifts. Is there anyway to help with this? Here's what my SA table looks like
Solved it!!
Turns out it was a signal issue at high rpm.
So, the OEM HEI wasn’t keeping up. Fixed that now. LOL 😉
It’s now fortified with MSD 8.8 wires, a Davis Unified Ignition distributor with a high performance coil, cap, rotor, module - and an MSD 6A system.
Now? Yeah... it runs PERFECT!! Kicks over immediately... feels like it has more low end torque... wow- this was a great mod!!
Best of all- no slop from the tach or signal to the ECM anymore!!! This will allow EBL to really do its thing now with accurate readings for rpm.
After chasing a bunch of irritating issues I finally found out my Throttle position sensor was bad. It was an intermittent thing but I finally caught it in the act on the whats up display. Put a new TPS in and the thing runs so much better it's crazy. I've been out riding around letting it learn from the wideband all afternoon and it's running almost like a new car again.
The only issue Im having at the moment is it seems to want to stall at the slightest opening of the throttle from idle. Just barely cracking the throttle open will send it to stall saver RPM and the thing will almost shut off but seems to hang on. The problem is with a manual you're tipping it in and slipping the clutch from every stop. As the tune has gotten closer the necessary RPMs to get the thing rolling have gotten closer and closer to idle speed, hence why this is becoming an issue. Is this something any of you guys have seen? Im charging my laptop now but I am going to go get a quick datalog of it happening later.
Since the fuel map is finally converging to something resembling a workable map, how do you guys approach tuning the spark timing? Are there any general guidelines for that? Or just push it til you get knock counts?
Last edited by InfernalVortex; 09-07-2018 at 05:33 PM.
What size injectors are you using? With my 35# I was getting a bad stumble on light acceleration and low RPM's. Really annoying with a manual. I solved it by reducing AE - MAP PW and AE - TPS PW , in my case I multiplied both of these tables by .65. I didn't think It was using AE at such small throttle delta but when you look at the dump log you can see fuel being added. It was enough to cause miss fires. HUGE difference in drivability, especially in traffic.
Im using Lt1 injectors for now. Either 22 or 24 lbs depending on who you ask. I estimate Im making around 280-320hp depending on how close I can get the tune. I assume these injectors are 24 since that just seems to be the most common number I see. I know they are the garbage type of injectors, but I wasnt really seeing a need to change them. It seems to be fine on light acceleration for now. It's just at idle it's an issue. Could be a similar root cause though.... Looking at the datalog I see AE turn on and it goes very rich as it nearly stalls.
It's a little annoying because sometimes it seems to be perfectly fine. Seems to be heat soak related, could be the MAT table or something but thats a long way outside of my very limited experience.
I've included the datalog and the tune I was using for it.
Last edited by InfernalVortex; 09-08-2018 at 01:50 PM.
im having a major knock issue with my LT383. im getting alot in the 3600-4400 rpm range and i cant seem to get the AFR's below 13.1. ive tried to richen it up but its not helping. im also running 100 octane. heres my BIN and my last datalog. Can someone take a look ?
im having a major knock issue with my LT383. im getting alot in the 3600-4400 rpm range and i cant seem to get the AFR's below 13.1. ive tried to richen it up but its not helping. im also running 100 octane. heres my BIN and my last datalog. Can someone take a look ?
Welllll, you built a bit of heat in the engine cruising at high speed. The initial burst to get to that speed caused a minor amount of knock retard (~2°).
If the engine isn't knocking in the lower gears can use the "SA - PE Reduction vs. MPH" table to reduce the SA at higher vehicle speeds. As it is it appears that you are running at about 37° BTDC when the big hit of knock occurred.
If the engine also knocks in the lower gears, then remove half of the peak retard value from the main SA table.
There is still plenty of injector left, so can up the VE to add more fuel.
Welllll, you built a bit of heat in the engine cruising at high speed. The initial burst to get to that speed caused a minor amount of knock retard (~2°).
If the engine isn't knocking in the lower gears can use the "SA - PE Reduction vs. MPH" table to reduce the SA at higher vehicle speeds. As it is it appears that you are running at about 37° BTDC when the big hit of knock occurred.
If the engine also knocks in the lower gears, then remove half of the peak retard value from the main SA table.
There is still plenty of injector left, so can up the VE to add more fuel.
Anyone know what might cause my LC-2 Wideband to act like this? See attached datalog. It is wired into ADC channel 1. It looks like it is swinging up and down like a narrowband would???
This is with the filter at 0%. I wouldn't think it would swing like that even if it was on a fast filter would it?
Edited above to have data logs. Today at lunch I verified the analog 1(yellow) wire was being used from the Innovate LC-2 and hooked it up to the laptop to verify the settings were correct. Then I tested again with still similar results. Datalog "2" shows today's data log.
Note, towards the end of today's data log I switched banks to a different tune that is much richer and has other changes. When it went rich the WB seemed to calm down and not swing near as much as it was before. Not sure why being rich would help the swinging? Really lost at this point. No idea where to go from here.
Last edited by dabomb6608; 09-19-2018 at 01:38 PM.
An update to my WB issues. Last night I got under the car and swapped my sensor locations. Now my wide band is installed in the drive side header. Before bolting it up I did a free air calibration. Started it up and it was much steadier on the readings. Was able to do a few learns at idle and it dialed it in pretty good to my commanded AFR.
My tune more or less is a fresh start off of the 5.7L Alum. Head 6speed bin. Made the needed changes for my motor and injectors. My offsets are not manufacturer confirmed but were found online for these Siemens Deka #9267 36lbs injectors I am running. I am really hoping I can get some real progress on this now.
It is looking like I will need to bump up my BPC Table to allow some headroom on my VE Tables. Already in the upper 80s before passing 2000 RPM. I remember having this issue in the past as well. The process for that is just raise the BPC and lower the VE tables by that percentage right? (Old BPC/New BPC) then multiply the entire VE table by that value?
I have a dual fan setup on my car. Is it possible to use pin F8 on the EBL P4 to control the secondary fan on the car based off of the coolant temperature like the first fan? I don't have a lot of faith that my coolant temperature sensor in the passenger side head is working correctly and would rather be able to control the second fan with the computer if possible.
I have a dual fan setup on my car. Is it possible to use pin F8 on the EBL P4 to control the secondary fan on the car based off of the coolant temperature like the first fan? I don't have a lot of faith that my coolant temperature sensor in the passenger side head is working correctly and would rather be able to control the second fan with the computer if possible.
I have done that on a OEM 7730 by changing some settings in the calibration. I also wired in the a/c compressor control relay for WOT a/c shut-off. RBob should be able to let you know if it is a possibility with his code.
Yes, you can do that. Can do it right at the ECM by splicing into the wire that goes to D12 and run it to pin F8.
RBob.
RBob could you elaborate please, once connected to F8 where in EBL do we control the 2nd fan? In my case no A/C and 2nd fan grounds via an under dash toggle switch now.
Also any comments about what speed fans should be shut off ... that is do fans inhibit the flow of air at speed?
As this is my first post at thirdgen.org so please allow to introduce myself:
This is Stefan from Germany owning a full restored 1988 Chevy G20 Van (7 years of work...). I know it's not a F-Body but this is the best thread on the EBL flash I could find so far. Hope you F-Body guys can accept a van guy around here. My car is probably driven faster than your Camaros and Firebird anyway... we got the autobahn here
Today my EBL Flash II arrived and will be installed on the weekend. Before doing so I got some questions and hope to find some help here.
1. What would be the best BIN to start with? My setup is a 355 L31R Vortec with a hydraulic roller cam ( 213 int./219 exh. @0.05") and a 650cfm TBI on the GMPP TBI to Vortec intake. Injectors are stock (55lp/h or 61lp/h???) @ 17psi. The exhaust is a full dual 2,5" with headers and H-pipe. Transmission is a 700r4 with ~2000stall converter and 3.08 lsd rear end.
I tought of using the spark tables from the EBL_F_3000 and put it in the EBL_F_2011 (as this was the original setup of the car). Do you think this will work to start it up and do some tuning or is it too far off? Is there someone out there with a similar setup who is willing to share his BIN?
2. In one of the EBL threads I read the suggestion to start with NB VE learning first and then go to WB VE learning. What is the reason for that? I already installed an Innovate LC-2 for WB tuning. How much filter would you use for the WB analog input?
3. How much difference will an IAT sensor make? Is it worth it? If yes which one is suggested? Can it be hooked to one of the analog channels or only on C12?
So far for the beginning... I am pretty excited to get the EBL installed
As this is my first post at thirdgen.org so please allow to introduce myself:
This is Stefan from Germany owning a full restored 1988 Chevy G20 Van (7 years of work...). I know it's not a F-Body but this is the best thread on the EBL flash I could find so far. Hope you F-Body guys can accept a van guy around here. My car is probably driven faster than your Camaros and Firebird anyway... we got the autobahn here
Today my EBL Flash II arrived and will be installed on the weekend. Before doing so I got some questions and hope to find some help here.
1. What would be the best BIN to start with? My setup is a 355 L31R Vortec with a hydraulic roller cam ( 213 int./219 exh. @0.05") and a 650cfm TBI on the GMPP TBI to Vortec intake. Injectors are stock (55lp/h or 61lp/h???) @ 17psi. The exhaust is a full dual 2,5" with headers and H-pipe. Transmission is a 700r4 with ~2000stall converter and 3.08 lsd rear end.
I tought of using the spark tables from the EBL_F_3000 and put it in the EBL_F_2011 (as this was the original setup of the car). Do you think this will work to start it up and do some tuning or is it too far off? Is there someone out there with a similar setup who is willing to share his BIN?
2. In one of the EBL threads I read the suggestion to start with NB VE learning first and then go to WB VE learning. What is the reason for that? I already installed an Innovate LC-2 for WB tuning. How much filter would you use for the WB analog input?
3. How much difference will an IAT sensor make? Is it worth it? If yes which one is suggested? Can it be hooked to one of the analog channels or only on C12?
So far for the beginning... I am pretty excited to get the EBL installed
B/R Stefan
Start off with a near stock bin IMO. Better to not be too aggressive right off the bat. It doesn't sound like your setup is too crazy anyways. After awhile it won't look anything like the start bin, trust me. Using NB to learn first allows you to drive the car in closed loop. Tuning with a WB requires you to be in open loop the entire time, so trying to drive around with an inaccurate starter VE table is not going to go well. The NB will more or less ballpark where you need to be, and then you can do further WB tuning from there. Don't use a filter on the WB input, there's already a filter programmed into the LC-2 controller. It is recommended to leave that at the 1/12 filter for use with the EBL. You can change those by plugging into the wideband controller and using the LM programmer application. IAT sensor will help keep your AFRs more repeatable from day to day conditions, but nothing is going to be perfect. I've never heard of someone not benefiting from the IAT, so just go for it,
I got my EBL installed but I cannot connect to my laptop. Com port is correct (it also switches to open/closed when I connect/pull the cable). Fuel pump also runs when I turn on the ignition but the WUD does not do anything.
Either it's a stupid computer thing or the EBL is broken. Somebody got an idea?
By the way:
The installation guide says to use the drivers from the EBL CD. But there is no dialog for me to choose these driver. I even could not find any file that looks like a driver for the USB cable.
Got it:
When I wired the WB O2 to D9 on the ECM plug I realized that everything will fit in the stock ECM housing (I like to have the stuff look clean and stock). What I did not realize is that the two little tabs under the small cover slightly hit the circuit board underneath probably creating a shortcut. I bent the tabs and now I have the EBL flash nicely hidden in the ´7747 stock case
Just did the first test/learning runs. Except for idle it really run well from the beginning (F_2011 BIN with F_3000 SA tables). After a few learns idle already got better. Tomorrow I will do some WB learns.
I am really stoked about the EBL. Great job RBob! Also great support and lots of information here in the forum!
On the first runs the VE already went to 100% in some areas whilst having a DC of ~50%. I guess this means I do not have the correct BPC?
I see two reasons for that: The FP drops from 18psi to 16psi when the engine is warm. Did anyone else see this behaviour or is it just the gauge (cheap liquid filled 0-30psi gauge)?
The other reason is that I might have installed 55lb/h injectors instead of 61lb/h.
Anyway... what is the max. VE that should be seen in a healthy VE table (whilst having max 85% DC)?
How do you think about 80lb/h injector on my setup (specs above)? Is this a good idea or would the big injectors cause a bad idle?
What minimum sPW in ms is required for a good idle?
EDIT:
Should DFCO and EGR be deactivated for learning?
Last edited by Schlabbeloui; 10-12-2018 at 07:59 AM.
On the first runs the VE already went to 100% in some areas whilst having a DC of ~50%. I guess this means I do not have the correct BPC?
This is common, increase the BPC table by 15% and reduce the VE table by 15%.
I see two reasons for that: The FP drops from 18psi to 16psi when the engine is warm. Did anyone else see this behaviour or is it just the gauge (cheap liquid filled 0-30psi gauge)?
Correct, a liquid filled gauge is only accurate at room temperature.
Anyway... what is the max. VE that should be seen in a healthy VE table (whilst having max 85% DC)?
I usually shoot for 85% to 90% maximum VE%.
How do you think about 80lb/h injector on my setup (specs above)? Is this a good idea or would the big injectors cause a bad idle?
What minimum sPW in ms is required for a good idle?
Figure your engine will make about 350 HP, plug numbers for injector size and fuel pressure into the EBL Utility. That will show you how much injector is required.
EDIT: Should DFCO and EGR be deactivated for learning?
EGR yes, DFCO not required. CCP should also be disabled.
As this is my first post at thirdgen.org so please allow to introduce myself:
This is Stefan from Germany owning a full restored 1988 Chevy G20 Van (7 years of work...). I know it's not a F-Body but this is the best thread on the EBL flash I could find so far. Hope you F-Body guys can accept a van guy around here. My car is probably driven faster than your Camaros and Firebird anyway... we got the autobahn here
Today my EBL Flash II arrived and will be installed on the weekend. Before doing so I got some questions and hope to find some help here.
1. What would be the best BIN to start with? My setup is a 355 L31R Vortec with a hydraulic roller cam ( 213 int./219 exh. @0.05") and a 650cfm TBI on the GMPP TBI to Vortec intake. Injectors are stock (55lp/h or 61lp/h???) @ 17psi. The exhaust is a full dual 2,5" with headers and H-pipe. Transmission is a 700r4 with ~2000stall converter and 3.08 lsd rear end.
I tought of using the spark tables from the EBL_F_3000 and put it in the EBL_F_2011 (as this was the original setup of the car). Do you think this will work to start it up and do some tuning or is it too far off? Is there someone out there with a similar setup who is willing to share his BIN?
2. In one of the EBL threads I read the suggestion to start with NB VE learning first and then go to WB VE learning. What is the reason for that? I already installed an Innovate LC-2 for WB tuning. How much filter would you use for the WB analog input?
3. How much difference will an IAT sensor make? Is it worth it? If yes which one is suggested? Can it be hooked to one of the analog channels or only on C12?
So far for the beginning... I am pretty excited to get the EBL installed
B/R Stefan
Stefan,
One of the first EBL Classics went into a 1983 G20 van.
IAT needs to go to the actual ECM connectors to be functional. I actually used an open cage IAT in the intake manifold for a MAT. On a wet flow intake system the IAT can stay relatively constant with the MAT swinging all over the place during normal driving.
I have a spark map that works very well with vortec heads, stock compression ratio, and mild cams. I use it in the 1996-2000 GMT400 350 Vortecs as a starting point.
It would be great if you'd share that spark table. So far I used the EBL_F_3000 spark map which works but it gave me quite a few knock counts especially in the 2200-2600 area.
For now I have to stop tuning until I get bigger injectors. DC went to 102%(?!) at around 4200rpm WOT. For good luck I did not kill the engine as it's been running with this setup almost a year now (on a custom chip from TBIchips). It's great to get all this information what the engine is doing from the EBL
One question on injectors:
I ordered a set of late model big block injectors ACDelco #217-2281 (alternate pn's due to rockauto: 17112560, 17087021, 17089092, 17089093, 19110533, 217346). I thought these will be 80lb/h @13psi. But now I find quite confusing information about that (75lb/h @10psi, 80lb/h @13psi, 90lb/h @13psi).
Does somebody know the actual flow rate of these injectors?
I’m getting some knock at the 60 KPA and 2k rpm & below range when there is no throttle applied- so, it’s either coasting or decelerating at those times. This seems to happen when lifting the throttle.
Seeing between 1 and 7 counts... typically at the 40kp/1800 rpm area... 60kpa/1400, 1800, 2000, and 2200rpm areas. Running around high 15s on AFR in those areas. TPS is less than 10% in all instances.
No knock issues during PE or light acceleration.
I have AFR 180 heads... and am using BIN 3001’s SA values from 60kpas down and from 400- 6k rpm. Using my own values from my previous BIN for 70kpa - 100kpa. Heads are new- previous tune reflected iron heads. I had a lot more knock with the iron head SA - swapping it out has helped I think.
I have a couple of logs. Seems that taking 2 degrees in those areas made the knock at throttle lift worse.
Is that false knock? Also... how would I be able to determine if it’s false knock?
Thoughts on the heads... should I be using a different SA table?
How about AFR- would running a little richer in those areas help stave off throttle lift knock?
Thoughts?
Specs...
—————-
OE TBI units bored out to 52mm running in parallel port fueling configuration
Renegade Intake (aftermarket cross ram)
90lb injectors
Aeromotive Variable Fuel Pressure Regulator (25psi at idle / 28psi at WOT)
Davis Unified Ignition distributor, coil, and module
RBob, I’ve had signal issues with the HEI- that’s what led me to the 6A. I had been getting a garbled signal for both the tach and the ECM that showed 200-500rpm spikes and drops after 4800rpm. GM and/or aftermarket distributors, coils, modules, rotors, caps, plugs, wires, and even tach filters didn’t help clear up the signal until I upgraded to the 6A.
I will check the plugs again.
BTW... you have the best pictures of plugs on the Internet! Very clear images!
Plugs look good. Pulled several and they all looked typical of a closed loop operating engine. I don’t have but maybe a couple hundred miles at the most since the head swap. Might also look at the knock sensor- it might be too tight ( I replaced it a while ago).
It seemed as though when I took advance away that it got worse in the decel. So, I am going to add the SA values for an L98 from 60kpas down. Will also fatten the mixture a bit and work from there.
As far as the lockup issues, I had the same and Bobby told me to "stackloGear and Highgearin-out settings the same MPH" - I set TCC force lockup @ 110 mph.
Awala - no more lockup issues!!! (I set mine to lockup at 50 mph and unlock at 42 mph) You can also raise the % of tps coast so it doesn't unlock and lock a lot on the highway - doesn't take much - maybe 1% for normal driving.
Yes, you can do that. Can do it right at the ECM by splicing into the wire that goes to D12 and run it to pin F8.
RBob.
Sorry I've been out for a bit and have just been able to get back around to this now. I checked the wiring diagram in my manual and you are correct. I was under the impression that the ECM was totally unaware of the request for the second fan. Running F8 to D12 is an extremely easy solution to this problem. Thank you so much!
EDIT: I assume that since F8 is not connected on F bodies, that pin location will not have one of the metal plugs in it. If it does not, where I can buy one of those?
Last edited by Dartht33bagger; 10-24-2018 at 11:10 PM.
How is it going guys, I have a couple questions about my setup and figuring out this tune, first question is I feel like my set up makes no lowend power, I was wondering if my motor could use a little more timing down low?
specs;
small block 350
blueprint aluminum heads
lt4 hot cam
hsr intake
36lb injectors
wynjammer supercharger
Last edited by problem2420; 10-28-2018 at 09:56 AM.
EDIT: I assume that since F8 is not connected on F bodies, that pin location will not have one of the metal plugs in it. If it does not, where I can buy one of those?
Yes, no terminal in F8. I have seen terminals in the Help rack, but it was rare. If there is a function that you aren't using in the ECM may be able to use that terminal/wire. Here are a couple of part numbers:
08-19-2018, 09:52 AM
