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Wow, I didn't know that.. interesting point! Do you or someone else happen to know which ESC modules are out there in the typical F-body and other cars that came with the TBI/TPI engines? Just to get an idea of what's what and how they differ over the years and models maybe would be a cool info
So I'm having a minor hiccup now that it's gotten much colder outside. Obviously my car is now running a tad richer,even when up to temp. I am running an IAT sensor so what can I do to help balance it out?. Do I adjust the IAT/CTS blend tables? I run in open loop only
I would use the stock GM IAC tables . I bet you are using 3006 from RBob. I am. With OL as you know there is no INT/BLM correction. If you are rich I would start with pulling fuel from the two fuel tables. Why OL running? Is it your cam?
RBob has talked about CTS/IAT blend and taking notes about seasonality and how the INT/BLMs look.
To do that, you’re going to need a good cross-section of data from a good number of logs across the time of day (mornings are cooler than afternoons), time of year (ambientbair in summer is warmer than winter), and different engine temps (warm intakes, the hood, ducting, etc thins the air charge too).
Really, it comes down to the temperature of the air charge and the balance between the CTS/IAT blend.
You will also need to keep track of it at different KPAs because faster moving air loses less air charge density because it doesn’t have time to pick up as much heat.
Personally, if I am running richer in the morning and leaner OR more on par with what I’d expect in the afternoon, I will point slightly more towards the CTS in a given KPA. I will usually make changes in 3% to 4% increments, adding or subtracting based on whether it’s leaner or richer. Pointing more to the CTS will usually lean it out a tad and make it more stable if you too rich when the ambient air was denser.
Ronny or others will likely jump in if I’ve misstated anything... but that’s how I have interpreted what to do when adjusting the blend.
BLM/INT can add/subtract about 25% of fuel for changing conditions(barometric, temp/wear).So a morning temp of say 32dF and afternoon 60dF can be handled nicely as can -15dF vs 100d F. Seems like GM has this figured out as do other mfgs. Beauty of EFI. I really don't see value pf OL running unless the cam is so radical. Adding timing at idle helps in that regard. I ran OL idle a while back. When I went to port fuel I chose not to and car ran fine with a 224/230 .05 114 LSA in my 350. Now with my 396 SB I find I am at 60 MAP with a 236/242 112 LSA so I may need to reconsider. Not yet had car on street.
False knock has been a lot of fun to deal with. The OE knock sensor terminal disintegrated when I changed the headers out last year- and so I upgraded to a later model sensor. FWIW- the car has AFR heads and a non-roller cam.
Well, the later model sensor didn't work well with the OE ESC. What does that mean? Random knock at decel and then random knock during WOT right after / during a gear change.
Changed the OE ESC to a later model TPI unit. That helped a lot- but still had some random knock when changing gears. I had literally backed the timing down to 26 degrees at WOT on those AFR heads and it still had the occasional knock- always around a gear change. Plugs told a different story than the ESC was reporting- no specks or signs of true knock.
Now I have an ESC that cross-references for an '85 Vette. RBob had mentioned using the earlier model ESC in another thread where there was false knock.
I was running NGK plugs. I had also seen some posts about NGKs and tuning issues for some folks. So I went ahead and swapped in a fresh set of AC Delco plugs.
Problem solved.
No knock and now I am able to run total timing with PE adder at 34 degrees- in line with AFR's recommendation of 32- 34 degrees. I'll pull the plugs again and look over them after a few hundred miles to make sure I'm not missing anything.
How very interesting. Which NGKs were u running? I was thinking about trying a set of Iridiums after reading about how the iridiums require less energy to provide good spark and thus being able to use reserve coil energy for a hotter spark.
How very interesting. Which NGKs were u running? I was thinking about trying a set of Iridiums after reading about how the iridiums require less energy to provide good spark and thus being able to use reserve coil energy for a hotter spark.
I was running NGK copper core plugs- not iridiums.
I’ve had good results with AC’s Rapidfire plugs over the years- so, I’ve gone back to them.
I’d been using the NGK plugs for some time. RBob suggested Autolite 3924 which actually seemed to improve idle and mpg. And that was before I had re-gasketed the top end while also replacing a faulty set of injectors. However, I am thinking of going to one step hotter, so that’s where the iridiums come in.
I'm currently running the NGK V-Power 7s' with a BLH ESC module. I can't say I have definite false knock occuring, just intermittent knock counts around part throttle cells mostly. I've never thought about switching plugs to combat this, but the Autolite 3924s are a projected tip plug. I would love to try them, but I'm afraid of the tip hitting a piston. Engine is not at all stock with straight plug pro-filer 195 cc heads. Has anyone else used the 3924s on built street motors, or should I break out the clay to see if there is clearance?
My LT-5 is 11:1. The combustion chamber is a pent roof architecture and the pistons are flat tops. Not sure if its totally analogous to ur situation but I think u should be ok. I would put one in a cylinder, disabling ignition and then crank it a few times just to check.
My LT-5 is 11:1. The combustion chamber is a pent roof architecture and the pistons are flat tops. Not sure if its totally analogous to ur situation but I think u should be ok. I would put one in a cylinder, disabling ignition and then crank it a few times just to check.
Update: Dug this up from the depths of my phone. Looks like dished pistons with valve reliefs. I think I might try those Autolite plugs then...
Been a loooooooong time since I frequented the thread... looks like you have the same (or similar) pistons I do in my 383... SpeedPro, 9.65:1 w/ 64cc.
I just looked at the EBL site and there's an EBL Flash II now? I'm looking but haven't had any luck finding the changes from the original, which I have.
I just looked at the EBL site and there's an EBL Flash II now? I'm looking but haven't had any luck finding the changes from the original, which I have.
The main difference is that it has a cleaner USB based comm cable. Otherwise it runs the same firmware, WUD, and so forth. Note that if your current EBL isn't firmware V 2.4, it is a free download to update it (see our website). Can get the current firmware version from the bottom of the main WUD display once the engine has been running for a few seconds.
How do you read what bin files are in each bank? Thanks!
If you used the PromID parameter you can do a key-on, engine-off and flip through the banks. Check the PromID on the WUD to see which BIN is in which bank.
Otherwise will need to read each BIN out and compare them.
If you used the PromID parameter you can do a key-on, engine-off and flip through the banks. Check the PromID on the WUD to see which BIN is in which bank.
Otherwise will need to read each BIN out and compare them.
Been a loooooooong time since I frequented the thread... looks like you have the same (or similar) pistons I do in my 383... SpeedPro, 9.65:1 w/ 64cc.
I just looked at the EBL site and there's an EBL Flash II now? I'm looking but haven't had any luck finding the changes from the original, which I have.
My old G20 had a Marine 6.3 (4.00" X 3.8") that was destroyed from detonation. The 6.3 is identical to the HT383. It had a piston that looked just like those. Those pistons were 0.25" down the bore. It had vortec heads sitting on a 0.051" compressed head gasket. Compression ratio works out to 9.1:1. The Marine EFI system is calbrated rich, had a knock sensor and ran cool plugs and it was obvious it still had a major detonation problem. When I rebuilt it I put a true flat top piston into it.I found a cheap flat top piston for a 383 with a .020" raised pin to put the piston lower in the bore. When I put the engine back together the top of the piston was actually .005" above the deck. I ran a .043" compressed head gasket for .038" quench. Used a slightly bigger cam than the 196/206 @ .050 109 lsa marine cam. At 10.5:1 and good quench it was happy on 91 octane in my G20 van.
New Here:
Hey everyone, I've been lurking for some time. I decided to order an EBL Flash-II for my 88 C1500 (I know it's a little bigger than an F body) and decided to join since it looks like the best place to get info about navigating/managing the EBL. I know I'm going to have all kinds of questions throughout my learning curve. Hope you guys have patience with an old guy living in the desert. Once I get my new tranny and the EBL in I'll be ready to start playing...
Hey there, years passing by, wow.. had the Formula out on the street last time in 2016, and then one short drive in Fall '18. There I had the engine overheat on me and I found not milky but gooey ATF/coolant mixture, mmmh..(not!!).
Anyways, I'm flushing flushing flushing and putting it back on the street for summer now.
Car runs lean pretty much at every operating point and temp safe for CL cruising once warmed up. Checked fuel pressure and seems lower than I set it at in like 2013/14.. is it possible the overheat weakened the stock (A)FPR spring!? Tried adjusting some more but only got it up to like 10psi at idle, seems it's maxxed out as can be seen by the tab in the slot on the LH of the regulator spring container.
You measure at the upper engine to frame line which is return line, right?! Also, can I just measure pump deadhead pressure in feed line
Tried adjusting some more but only got it up to like 10psi at idle, seems it's maxxed out as can be seen by the tab in the slot on the LH of the regulator spring container.
You measure at the upper engine to frame line which is return line, right?! Also, can I just measure pump deadhead pressure in feed line
Fuel pressure is measured in the feed line. Which is the larger of the two.
Hmm, found conflicting information on the forum about that one, thanks.
Ok so measuring before the FPR (feed line) means you get the full pump pressure minus what goes back to the tank = pressure at the injectors.
Measuring in the return line would measure full pump pressure minus pressure at the injectors?
Measuring in the feed line with line capped after gauge would read maximum pump pressure?
Any idea at what pressure the stock FPR usually bottoms out with that tab on the side? Mine is a ACD TPI pump btw.
In order to get a pressure reading, you need resistance to flow. Return line should be open to the tank, no resistance, no pressure reading. If you have a pressure reading in the return line there is some resistance or blockage in the return line to the tank. If pressure is low in the feed line to the regulator and you block the return line to the tank and the pressure increases then the regulator is not providing enough resistance to flow.
Those are some sharp edges on those valve relief cuts. That's a good example of how a pre-ignition possibility can happen. Spend a few minutes rounding those edges off. Next time.
good points, never looked at it that way. thanks
and blocking off the feed line and measuring would result in "dead head"(?) max pump pressure also?
so the larger one is the feed line or return line (which theoretically has the requirement to be bigger in order to eliminate backpressure from tank to EFI as Rebuildman also put it)? I need to check tomorrow which line I have measured. Can anyone tell me for sure which one of the two lines in a 89 TBI Bird would be feed and return (upper/lower at the frame to engine line connections)?
Typically the line with the filter in it is the feed line from tank. Yes, the return line itself is a restriction so it is possible to see some pressure although low.
I’ve linked a video of my 2019 Spring Drive The Track at Kentucky Speedway run.
I had the ‘82 between 100mph / 110mph on the turns - and 120mph on the straight aways.
The car ran great- to the track, on the track, and on the drive home from the track. It’s about an hour and 10 minutes drive each way and has been the longest distance I have taken it out on to date.
You can hear it wind up on a downshift that took me from 100mph to 120mph. It seems to move out pretty good with the 2” TBs, Renegade intake, 180 AFR heads, .496” cam, full length headers, and gears. Wish I could say the 255/60/15 tires were up to it as much as the engine was.
In hindsight, I should have data logged it- that would have been neat to see. But I wanted my copilot (my son) to video the experience instead.
I'm getting ready to install my EBL Flash-II in my 88 5.7L and want to tune with WBO2, my question is; can I wire the WB directly to the ADC terminals and set it to "DIY-WB Non-Linear" in Preferences or do I need a controller too?
I'm getting ready to install my EBL Flash-II in my 88 5.7L and want to tune with WBO2, my question is; can I wire the WB directly to the ADC terminals and set it to "DIY-WB Non-Linear" in Preferences or do I need a controller too?
You still need the controller.
ADC is one wire that passes the data from the controller to EBL.
I was afraid of that, is there a cheap controller out there that can work with this Bosch replacement or should I return it and go with a complete kit?
I was afraid of that, is there a cheap controller out there that can work with this Bosch replacement or should I return it and go with a complete kit?
Others feel free to correct me here. But the last time I read into WB controllers AEM was the best of the best currently. There was a article I remember reading that did some testing between them and other brands including the LC-2. Didn't save the article link but saved the controller link on summit. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...0310/overview/
Others feel free to correct me here. But the last time I read into WB controllers AEM was the best of the best currently. There was a article I remember reading that did some testing between them and other brands including the LC-2. Didn't save the article link but saved the controller link on summit. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...0310/overview/
Does it really matter that you have the "best of the best"? The fact is, most available wideband kits are really darn good. You're not tuning a modern, direct injected setup on a dyno, where the marginal difference in WB sensor response time is going to affect anything significant. The LC-2 is what I run, and it does just great. You want a faster response? You can turn down the filtering on those in their software, as well as any additional filtering for that sensor input on the EBL WUD.
The majority of the available wideband kits use the same sensor anyway. You'll be just fine with whatever kit you use. It's probably easier to get one that the EBL software has support and a scale for (Like the LC-2, and I'm pretty sure the AEM stuff is in there as well).
For what its worth, I run the LC-2 as well. I was simply providing information and alternatives....especially considering that alternative is only $40 more than the LC-2. If I was in the market for a new wideband setup I would go with the AEM over the LC-2. Regardless of my ability to use its full potential or not.
Does it really matter that you have the "best of the best"? The fact is, most available wideband kits are really darn good. You're not tuning a modern, direct injected setup on a dyno, where the marginal difference in WB sensor response time is going to affect anything significant. The LC-2 is what I run, and it does just great. You want a faster response? You can turn down the filtering on those in their software, as well as any additional filtering for that sensor input on the EBL WUD.
The majority of the available wideband kits use the same sensor anyway. You'll be just fine with whatever kit you use. It's probably easier to get one that the EBL software has support and a scale for (Like the LC-2, and I'm pretty sure the AEM stuff is in there as well).
Thanks guys for your input. I already received the LC-2 Monday (I guess I got a little impatient). I installed the EBL Flash-II yesterday and did around 6 learns and downloads, WORKS GREAT!!! I'm going to do some more learns and adjustments with my NBO2 then, I'll install the WB and play with it some more just to see what improvements I get. I'm mostly interested in WOT gains.
I was afraid of that, is there a cheap controller out there that can work with this Bosch replacement or should I return it and go with a complete kit?
Most controllers come with a sensor, might want to return that one.
I love my LC-1, have been using it to tune on a professional level for many years (both have welded bungs in client cars, as well as putting a tailpipe clamp on it), but have installed a few LC-2's and they seem to cause a lot of sensor failures. Now that the LC-2 uses the more modern sensor, that get's expensive when they fail loften - whereas with the LC-1 I can just use a VW factory sensor and get them cheap (and warrantied) from the local parts store.
The sensor you got goes to a specific AEM, they have 2 versions. The sensor you have is their proprietary plug. If you go with the AEM 30-4110, it uses the "D" shaped connector and can easily be replaced with a turbo VW sensor.
Most controllers come with a sensor, might want to return that one.
I love my LC-1, have been using it to tune on a professional level for many years (both have welded bungs in client cars, as well as putting a tailpipe clamp on it), but have installed a few LC-2's and they seem to cause a lot of sensor failures. Now that the LC-2 uses the more modern sensor, that get's expensive when they fail loften - whereas with the LC-1 I can just use a VW factory sensor and get them cheap (and warrantied) from the local parts store.
The sensor you got goes to a specific AEM, they have 2 versions. The sensor you have is their proprietary plug. If you go with the AEM 30-4110, it uses the "D" shaped connector and can easily be replaced with a turbo VW sensor.
Yes. The 4.2 seems to last me much longer. In the ~12yr I have been using my LC-1, I have only gone through 2 or 3 sensors. One of the circuit race cars we support at my shop has gone through the same amount of 4.9 sensors in just 1.5yr, my buddies circuit car has gone through 2 in the last year (e2 error codes: heater circuit). The 4.2 sensor is the very same sensor that VW uses on their factory turbo cars, I get them at local parts stores (last one was $65 with an on-line coupon) and comes with a warranty, so if they fail, just exchange it....
Bosch 17014 from 1999-2005 Jetta. Here's a link for O'Reilly's, $66: Link
I recently switched the race car to the AEM 31-4110 since it uses the same older model Bosch sensor. It seems ridiculous to me that the LS-2 uses a sensor that is 2x the cost and are very susceptible to failure.
I don't know if this data logs fast enough for it to matter much, but the big deal on hptuners about the aem is how fast it reacts for turning ae enrichment. so you can find the correct location to tune.
I've got the old lc1 and the lm1 around. good units but full of errors, I've had to wire in a switch power to my lc1 so I can restart it without restarting the car. the lm1 works great on the first start up, but if you like stop for gas and restart hot within a few minutes. it will error a few times, gotta switch it off and on like 4 or 5 times. it's annoying on a daily. but from what I've read to try and keep the errors down they slowed down the lc2 to plx levels.
for my nicer daily I wasn't worried about speed at all, I just didn't want to mount a gauge in the car and plx has a nice little blue tooth app and display the gauge on my phone. so I can pull it up, stick the phone to it magnet mount and see the a/f when ever I'm feeling it, (also wired into hp) plus it never errors out on startup, so I don't have to worry about fouling out a o2 from driving when it's in error..
that said, next one I get will probably be that aem.
I don't know if this data logs fast enough for it to matter much, but the big deal on hptuners about the aem is how fast it reacts for turning ae enrichment. so you can find the correct location to tune.
Logiworks software allows you a sample rate change for the Innovate stuff. Kinda stuck when using AEM, but then again I tune my BMW clients without even having datalogs, so...might be a little biased.
IMHO, if a stock ECM (PCM in the case of LSx and HPT) can make LTFT/STFT from a 1v sensor, then the data rate of a WB shouldn't much matter, right?
Logiworks software allows you a sample rate change for the Innovate stuff. Kinda stuck when using AEM, but then again I tune my BMW clients without even having datalogs, so...might be a little biased.
IMHO, if a stock ECM (PCM in the case of LSx and HPT) can make LTFT/STFT from a 1v sensor, then the data rate of a WB shouldn't much matter, right?
as I understand it the narrow band o2 is much faster to change direction then any wideband we can buy. but most trims filter out the adders. most like to tune ve tables with LT and st trims for this reason. the fast o2 i think is more for guys building tunes off just the widens with big cam 5.4 swaps that all probably run like crap anyways, and trying to add their own filters to the logged data and for finding ae and de issues. but could be hype. also I think there's a way to tie the aem into the canbus for logging, which might be part if it.
you honestly sound like you tune way more than me. I just honestly don't like my lm1 and lc1 because of all the sensor errors I get. before they shut down their forums, it was all over the place 100 page threads about it. check this wire that blah blah blah. it never worked. they were just really the common option back then.
Thanks guys, this is good stuff. I'm only thinking about my truck and will probably remove the WBO2 after tuning. Right now, I'm getting a lot of KCs when doing a 0-60 run. I looked at my previous ECM's bin in which I have more fuel in my VE and more spark in my SA Main Tables. The WB will help with fuel (I assume) but how do I tune the SA and PE tables?
If you are getting a lot of counts currently then reduce SA in those areas. As long as they are "true" knock counts. Then start on your VE tables with the WB. Once those are in line can use the WB to help get your PE in line. Once fueling is "close" you can revisit your SA and slowly bring in more until you start getting counts again. Reduce SA by a couple points in the areas you get knock counts for a safety against bad fuel. Then do some final minor adjustments to the VE/PE tables as the changes in SA will affect the fueling.
This is the basic method. If you had a dyno or was doing back to back runs at a strip you could get more detailed on how high and when to reduce SA. Also, check your plugs from time to time. They give very accurate signs of what is actually going on with your burn and knocking. Sensors can malfunction but your plugs almost never lie...
11-04-2018, 10:45 AM
