firechicken1992

Whelp, I've finally found some time and slowly accumulated money to start doing this (damn college budget).

I'm dropping a Pontiac 400 into my little 'bird. My goal is to make this thing look like it rolled off the assembly line with this monster in there. I want this car to bring an 80s "modernized" look to the old 60s Firebird 400, and to kinda reach back to the merging and downfall of Pontiac.

I want to hear everyone's thoughts and maybe suggestions to help make this car fit this idea and work well and safely.

Engine:
1975 Block
#62 Heads (2.11 in 1.77 ex; 72 CC chambers)
.060 over for rebuild

firechicken1992

Well here's the first pic I took of this, test fitting and marking my spare block

firechicken1992

...and the real one, hopefully my friend and I can fit the tranny in either tomorrow or Monday.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Neat Idea! It looks like a tight fit. How does the weight of that big block Pontiac engine compare with a small block Chevy? I was thinking about doing something similar a few years back with a 1966 421 engine. My parents bought a Bonnieville coupe new in 66 with a 421 and three two barrels. It also had a Turbo 400 trans. Awsome car, however we lived on the beach in Florida, and the body rotted badly. When we moved back to GA in 73 the car still ran but was getting rough, and a few years later it was stored in a haybarn as a future project car. if I remember correctly, a bigblock Pontiac has some clearence issues in a Thirdgen, such as the oil filter and fitment of the exhaust manifolds. It will be cool to watch your project come together. Your car ought to have some awesome power as those old Poncho's are serious torque monsters.

firechicken1992

oh yeah im very excited. the weight is massive, and its sitting on V6 springs right now . But im going to order stiffer springs. As for clearance issues, im having more of a problem with the alternator sitting too high, i gotta relocate it to the other side, but i wanna save room for the A/C compressor too lol. Manifolds will be tight, but i dont think will be an issue, neither is the oil filter....but i may go remote for that just for ease of maintenance. but all in all it seems to fit well

Hopefully the tranny will go in today

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

You need to buy reproduction Ram Air manifolds. The cheapest ones are on eBay.

If you search the forums and the internet you'll see that GM put a 455 SD in an 82 Trans Am as a concept. It fit in there okay, if not a bit snug. It even had the AC and cruise hooked up. Search for that one to see where they put all the accessories to fit under the hood.

The 3rd gen Firebird was actually designed to hold the short deck 301 Pontiac with turbo from the 80-81 Trans Am. GM killed the engine program so they just ran Chevy small blocks.

Good luck!

firechicken1992

UPDATE: Oil filter is catching on the A-Arm mount, gonna have to go to a remote setup.

As soon as I get the correct tranny cross member, im going to start throwing this together, although i may need to go with a the short tailshaft housing to make room for the torque arm bracket a friend is going to make for me (welding is bad ju-ju for me).

All in all this is going fairly smoothly, the thought of keeping this engine cool is scareing me tho.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Please post pictures of the oil filter interference. You may be able to go with a smaller filter to avoid the interference.

I use the skinny AC Delco PF61 on my Buick and Olds engines that have clearance problems. Maybe it will work for you too?

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

PF 46 is the short version of that PF 61 oil filter. I forgot that!

firechicken1992

Ill look into that, it seems like i need another 1.5 to 2 more inches, i may go for a remote set up just for the sake of ease of maintenance.

As for that 455 Concept, i couldnt find anything on it anywhere

firechicken1992

Got the tranny in and going to order a UMI crossmember with body mounted torque arm (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UPI-2232-R/) after i get my next paycheck.

Gonna go grab a drive line and dual electric fan setup from a salvage yard here soon as well, ill have more pictures after i get this cross-member installed.

firechicken1992

Ran into a bit of a snag. V8 sits too high. Been comparing my set up to my friends '89 Iroc, my engine sits about 3-4 inches too high. I'm going to do all the math for this and have some new mounts made at a fabrication shop. It'll probably set the mounts very high on the cradle, but it should set the oil pan and whole engine very low into the compartment. I want the oil pan to sit about 1/2 inch above the cradle.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

It might be helpful to measure the height at the center line of the crank (the middle of the harmonic balancer center bolt) as compared to your buddy's IROC if it has good motor mounts.

Its a quick measure; from the ground to the center of the bolt, then from the ground to the center of the crossmember, then the difference between the two. The reason I do this on non standard engine swaps is for drive-line angle and transmission mount longevity. I don't like that back mount being in a bind when you are pushing the front of the engine up. You almost never have a problem with a wrong engine being too low in the cradle.

Its just a thought; I'll go measure my IROC and see what I get.

firechicken1992

i was thinking that too, maybe i could space the trans cross member with shims a little, because the torque arm mount on it is adjustable.

Ive just spent the last 30 mins searching other poncho swaps on here, and i think ive found some mounts that will help with this (or atleast have some reproductions made) http://www.pontiacgroup.com/enginepa...part/10776.htm

85_ZED28

Very cool project!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

The measurement on my IROC is from center of the VIN F balancer bolt to the "seam" that goes along the front of the crossmember.

My measurement is 6 3/4" and my motor mounts are in fair condition. I think if you used 70's or 2nd gen Firebird mounts from a real Pontiac V8 that would get you close to the right height. The lower rubbers for the Pontiac V8 are SIMILAR to the chevy mounts but they are NOT the same.

Good luck and let us know what happens!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I would definitely give those guys a call and see if they still have or make those mounts. They are listed as Indian Adventures pieces, but I think that company went bust under the economy of the last 6 years...

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

These guys maybe able to help ya.. You may need adapters and new mounts from a 75-81 Firebird, they use a front subframe thats almost the same as far as Aarms and motor placement go..
http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/...otorMounts.htm
http://www.bopengineering.com/

firechicken1992

Yeah I'm 99% sure they did, but the mounts look simple enough, I could get a fab. shop to make some for me, maybe even a little more reinforced (im paranoid about crap breaking and killing me)

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

I like this idea. I've wondered what it would've been like had the BOP engines made it into the '80s - '90s.
If you want an '80s factory look, maybe put a crossfire manifold on top?

firechicken1992

Pontiac motors are completely different than Chevy motors, nothing is the same between them lol. although i do want to go with some sort of TPI system in the future (if possible) because i want to make this look like it came outta the factory with this.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

The true Pontiac mill starting in 82 would have been a 301, but aside from that, it would have either been computer quadrajet 4 barrell or turbo.

So, don't forget the turbo if you are trying to make it look right. Pontiac fully intended to run turbo V8 engines in the 3rd gen until GM corporate killed their engine program. They had been loosely mirroring Buick's turbo V6 program with their 301 and were just working the bugs out when they got canned.

You can weld injector bungs to an aluminum intake and hook a throttle body to where the carburetor bolts on, but to make a TPI type intake I'm not sure what you would do.

firechicken1992

well mines a '92, so carb would look outa place if period correctness was applicable (but lets not get into all those theroies, thats way too out their for where im at on this project xDDD

Since Im going with the big CI ill keep it NA, i actually have a personal preference for NA cars, if i was running the short deck 301 id do turbo, but that aint happening xDD


heres a pic of my car btw:

just imagine it with a body colored Z28 Spoiler

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

The carb wouldn't look so out of place with the proper TBI style air cleaner and what not. Remember the Olds 307 ran a carb in 1990. Reason being, the Olds V8 cylinder heads had a better combustion pattern than Chevy did and it could easily pass emissions with the Quadrajet. The Chevy couldn't get it done. It is most likely that Pontiac would have used similar designs to Buick and Olds to get their heads optimized for fuel injection and turbocharging as well.

What I'm saying is that the underhood stuff, the way its arranged, will make the look to see if it looks "correct."

The picture below is from a guy who put a Buick 455 under the hood of his 87 Trans Am. The only thing that remotely looks "wrong" is the old style AC compressor.

79tagio

any new info ?

firechicken1992

not yet, VERY tied up with school and family issues, Old man winter is on his way as well so i may need to break out the tarp here soon (im working on my driveway)

79tagio

Feel your pain, all i have is a little harbor freight car port i keep mine in, does the job better than a cover haha, same here school sucks! Im trying to find time to work on my pos but still cant find a goo time :/

1gary

The only thing I remember about the Ponco engines was the weak link was the valve train and primarily the rocker arm design. I would have thought someone came up with a expensive solution to that.

This is a all weather solution:

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

You do realize that the Pontiac rocker arm idea was designed in a basement by a Pontiac engineer and the idea was stolen by Chevy to use on SBC an BBCs??

The weak point in the pontiac was/is the stock cast rods and pistons and the pontiac engeneers knew it but the higherups wouldnt let them build a better rod or piston. The forged SD parts were better but not enuff.

firechicken1992

i wish i had the money for that

firechicken1992

Well I just ordered my torque arm relocation crossmember from UMI....estimated arival time is Nov. 8th so i guess im grinding to a stand still until the spring. Hopefully we'll have a super mild winter like the last (raining on Dec. 28) but Montana isn't known for very warm weather. T.T

1gary

Sorry for the off topic question. Where the 389 tri-power engines also cast??. I would have thought those where forged.

Man I'm I ever behind on some of the B-P-O's stuff.........

firechicken1992

Ok. I have absolutely been dieng to post (I think im addicted to this site). I've gotten my torque arm relocation crossmember from UMI today, and I have to say: WOW . The welds are seamless and the color is flawless. Thanks guys at UMI!!

I'll get pictures of it installed later this week. After I budget off some money for books for my next semester of college I'll get a new carb. and driveline made.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Body colored Z28 spoiler? I assume you mean the 91-92 high rise spoiler since the 3 piece ones wont fit your taillights.

Well, bad news, the Pontiacs actually have a wider rear decklid than the Camaros.



You may decide that doesn't matter, but it really doesnt look very good. It definitely wouldnt have come stock like that. Now if you were to cut it and widen it... it'd probably be pretty cool looking.

daturbosix

iTrader: (2)

where do i start...

your oil filter adaptor off a late 60s gto is what you need. it will fit as long as you put a tubular k-member in it.

motor mounts are stupid simple, i could get detailed pictures and measurements of mine if you need them.

exhaust, IA is no longer. i assume someone would know where to contact for their old products. i am running their d-port headers, and fit great, aslong as you use a tubular k-member.

my 455; im about 3 hours away from getting it started, just trying to figure out where to lay all the wires the way i like it.


my thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/memb...5-im-back.html

firechicken1992

that is freakin beautiful, ill check out your thread

firechicken1992

i actually like that look lol I think it fits with the inward angles of the C pillars. I already have mine on, that pic is just old lol

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I can see how it fits well the with the B-pillars... good point.

Still not really sold on it, but it's not bad...

firechicken1992

I'm digging the exhuast too......i think i just found how i want to do mine xD
Infernal, is this your car?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

No I stole the picture from someone else. Since I originally posted it as a "bad" example, I didn't feel like providing names was a good idea.

firechicken1992

Alright, since the stock Pontiac mounts won't work without more modification than I want to do, I took some measurements of the block and factory 3rd gen V8 mounts. I'm gonna design up some mounts and have them made at a shop around here. Here's just the measurements I got if anyone else is interested in this swap.

firechicken1992

do you guys think a CNC machined emblem like this would look good on the fenders?

3genpio

iTrader: (6)

i went other way...







it is just ploter cut like the original, cost few bucks...

firechicken1992

ive thought that too, i just think some cnc emblems will make it stand out a lil more. that still looks freakin great and professionally done

firechicken1992

Well it's been forever since I've said anything on this, but summer is quickly approching and i'll bring this thread back to life.

Latey been stocking up on parts.

I just recieved my Formula rims from the user gtxtra on here, thanks for those!
Gonna fire up my 400 for the first time within the next week or two hopefully, I'll post a vid of that.

Gonna rebuild that TH400 after I get all my money prioritized for everything else. Gonna build custom steel lines up to the front for a cooler.

After all that is running it'll be time to hunt for a driveline.


I'll draw up a wiring diagram for all this and post it on here at some point.

Just wondering, how popular is this swap? As I learn more at school I've been toying with the idea of making "kits" for this, such as mounts, wiring harnesses and lines and such.

firechicken1992

Well spent a good 45 mins to an hour on this today, i LOVE how simplistic these cars are. This isnt going to be the typical thirdgen wiring job, Im chopping out all the unused options connectors and cleaning up the cluster of wires. While i do this im going to clean all the dust and cigarette ash from the PO and run and extra set of wires to the doors to run a 4x6 speaker in both doors .

firechicken1992

Oh yeah, what is this lil guy? It says "PassKey". Is this the VAT system?

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I think its part of the signal generator stuff for the vats key, yes. GM gave it several names, and passkey was one of them.

If you're not using the original ECM in the car, then it doesn't matter. Just make sure to follow your starter wires all the way back to your ignition switch and make sure that its not hooked to that module anywhere. VATS turned off the fuel I know, but not sure about that start wire.

daturbosix

iTrader: (2)

on my 92, there was a relay i had to provide a ground to.

i couldnt tell you how or what i did(i did it 5 years ago), but maybe someone here can provide the correct info.

Veaceonee

iTrader: (1)

I think its a box that ***** crimped wires.