TKOPerformance

I would say that the problem is most definately balance related. Take my initial advice and get the flywheel and clutch assembly balanced at a good machine shop. Just because parts are supposed to bolt together doesn't mean that they will. Factory balance jobs aren't always what they should be. Maybe that flywheel was made on a Monday, and the guy balancing it was still a little hungover from the weekend. These things happen.

My grandfather had a rattle in the door of his new car, pulled off the door panel and found a glass coke bottle inside the door. A line worker must have left it there.

A friend of mine is a professional mechanic, and had a guy bring him a truck with complaints about a clunking sound in one of the doors. Inside was a small air powered drill. That was a nice freebie, but it further demonstrates that anything in mass production has the potential to get overlooked or goofed up along the way.

turboj91

Ok - here is something to look for. Again this is on a 83 bird, auto with cruise.

I scraped off the large amount of seam sealer on the firewall to floor pan seam and I find a metal plug in the firewall. I popped out the plug and there was my perfect factory installed 1.5" hole but............

As mentioned the car has cruise. The cruise vac. hose was located above the plug I just pulled. I slide the clutch master and rod thru the hole for a trial fit and the master is incredibly tight to the inner wheelhouse/shock tower AND the angle of the rod is all wrong and it doesn't reach the pedal mount.

To make a long story short, pulled out the cruise control hose and grommet and there is another hole to try the master. Perfect angle and the rod reaches the pedal mount.

Gonna eliminate the cruise stuff so the plug goes back in the lower hole.

One would think that since T5 and automatics went down the same line that the assembly worker would get used to the pattern of putting the cruise hose thru the lower hole since the upper was for the clutch - not in this case (bastages - all of them bastages).

Lastly - absolutely no markings on the firewall pad to locate any holes.

TKOPerformance

Well, there wouldn't be any pre-punched areas in the firewall pad for a hydraulic clutch actuator on an '83 car. '82 & '83 cars used a mechanical linkage for the clutch actuation.

I can't say that all cars from '84 on had the holes pre-punched, but my '86 did.

turboj91

Learn something new everyday.

IROCracer

That's why I used the 3rd gen assembly.

FireRed91Z28

sorry but i didnt bother to read but i did do this swap a long time ago thanks to this thread and im just gonna post that if u have the 4th gen pedal assembly and u wanna save urself some time, i hacked off the gas pedal part so it wud be a lot easier to install and that way i keep my stock gas pedal.....worked out great and my 91Z had the cutout spot under the carpet through the insulation n all. best mod anyone can do to their 3rd gen...get 4.10s and youll kill good mounts of cars on the street. im in the process of a twin turbo engine now, everythings all set just deciding what color to pain the entire car before installation.

Camaro_nut

I had no problems using a 4th gen pedal assembly. I
only had to cut off the gas pedal and reuse my existing
one. Works fine. The pedal angles and travel are fine.
You can use EITHER a 3rd or 4th gen pedal assembly
for the T-56 swap, just cut off the 4th gen gas pedal.

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

it is easier using 4th gen i had a set of both when doing my swap, just cut off the gas pedal, drill out the booster holes, and extend the top hole and it goes in fine... all the electronics are exchangeable, with the 3rd gen pedal assembly the master rod does not fit properly on there, and can not be clipped, so you have to change rods with a t5 for it to even fit over the fitting.

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

it is easier using 4th gen i had a set of both when doing my swap, just cut off the gas pedal, drill out the booster holes, and extend the top hole and it goes in fine... all the electronics are exchangeable, with the 3rd gen pedal assembly the master rod does not fit properly on there, and can not be clipped, so you have to change rods with a t5 for it to even fit over the fitting.

TKOPerformance

I used 3rd gen pedals and it was a direct bolt in with no problems. I didn't have to modify anything. I grabbed a spare brake rod clip from the yard when I pulled the pedals and used it to do the clutch rod. I don't understand how people are having problems using 3rd gen pedals, unless they are trying to use pedals from a car with a mechanical clutch linkage, which may be different. I used pedals from a T5 V8 car, andhad no issues.

MrDude_1

i just did my pedals again yesterday... (finishing LS1 swap...)


i have NO IDEA how i managed to get the top brake booster bolts in before... lol... this time, i had to drop the column......but then it was easy.

i dont remember dropping the column last time to do it, but whatever...



im using the 4thgen pedals.... including the gas pedal... works perfectly.. and ofcourse, the clutch linkages is perfect since they're made for each other.....

TKOPerformance

When I installed my pedals I removed the steering column and brake booster entirely. I was converting from an auto, so I had holes to cut and such. I've always found that the time it takes to just remove stuff that's in your way is minimal compared to the time you spend cussing the stuff you didn't want to remove when you've folded in half lying on your back trying to figure out how to tighten some nut with about 1/2" clearance on either side. Especially when it's about 11:30 at night an you've got to get up at 5:00 to go to work.

383T/A

I am planning on putting a t56 into my firebird. I talked to my local wrecking yard and they sell them for 1600-1700cdn with everything I need and a warrenty. I have been reading these froums for a while now but cant find anything that really answers these questions. The car came with a t5. I have a 383 ('85 350 block) 2 piece rms and it has been externaly balanced. The engine has just been rebuilt by myself and is sitting on an engine stand.

What I want to know:

What flywheel should I use? can I use the 93-97 t56 flywheel or is that not retro fit?

Hydraulics: I will use the slave cylinder from the t56 car but can I use the stock steel lines with the slave? I heard something about modifing the clutch pedal rod? Any other hydraulic complications that I should know of?

Thanks

TKOPerformance

Flywheel: You need an aftermarket flywheel designed to mate the LT1 style clutch to the 2-piece RMS engine. The stock LT1 flywheel is a 1-piece RMS engine, and the crank hub bolt patterns are different, so you can't swap flywheels from one to the other. Be aware of what kind of balance your engine has too. If it was set up like a 400 with external balance you need an external balance flywheel. If it was internally balanced then a standard neutral balance flywheel like one for a 350 is what you need. McLeod & Centerforce are two sources for the flywheel. The flywheel is LT1 specific. A standard small block flywheel for the appropriate RMS style will not work. The LT1 uses it's own clutch design for use with the T56, and the flywheel is different to accomodate the clutch and pressure plate design.

Hydraulics: Just use the entire stock LT1 assembly. It bolts right in with no problem. I've heard a lot of guys on this forum say that they had problems with the push rod fitting the stud on a 3rd gen pedal, but I did not encounter this problem. I'm not sure what the deal is with that. If it's that big of a concern you can just use the 4th gen pedals, as they are guaranteed to work.

turboj91

Read a few posts back about flywheels. The centerforce clutch setup is nice but the flywheel is heavy. There was one mentioned that is 7 lbs lighter. I'd go with that one.

3rd gen pedals fit right in and I had no prob with the clutch rod.

The hydraulic setup bolts in as is. I would buy a new one. Make sure the yard gives you the bracket to mount the fluid res. to the brake booster. If you have the ability to see the setup in the car before they pull it, do so.

TKOPerformance

Be wary of light weight flywheels. I chose to use the MCLeod aluminum flywheel when I did my T56 swap. I wish I'd stuck with a heavier steel flywheel. The idle is lopey because of the lack of inertia from the light flywheel. The engine is nearly bone stock, but it idles like it's got a big cam in it, which meant I had to adjust my idle speed up to keep it from stalling. Especially when I'd push the clutch in to brake. Even with the idle up you really need to stay on top of it with heel/toe shifting to keep the RPMs from dropping too quickly and makign the car jerk and buck when you downshift. It drives like a race car, but it doesn't perform like one. I'd try and stay with a flywheel that's within 5lbs of the stock flywheel weight. If it's just a race car then go with the light weigth, but if you plan to drive it on the street I'd sacrifice that little bit of performance for better driveability.

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

i used a centerforce dual friction clutch along with a steel billet slp flywheel which is 8lbs lighter than stock, it revs nice and fast, and still has the weight to keep it going, not only that its sfi approved so it wont shatter on me. its such a nice piece cant go wrong, as far as the centerforce df clutch, the throw out bearing is the noisiest ive ever heard, clutch is not an easy pedal to push tell you that much,

and when doing the swap just buy a whole brand new hydroulic assembly, it comes prebleed and with steel lines, for about the same price from kragen you have to bleed them which they were not meant to be bleed,

if you talk to your local dealership talk him down to wholesale price say gmpartsdirect.com has this price and they will give it to you for $109

Camaro_nut

I was wondering how you would have to bleed
the hydraulics if they ever failed. So, if you have
a clutch master cylinder that let go (leaks), when
you get one from GM, it comes prebled? Just have
to bolt it up and your done?

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

thats correct it comes pre-bled, and assembled as one unit, resivor, slave, and master cyl, there is no bleeder screw on the slave, so bleeding is extremly difficult

383T/A

So, I would use the stock t56 clutch and pressure plate allong with a aftermarket flywheel. Does the stock clutch have a holding power acceptable for performance applications? Basically what I would like do to keep the cost down on this swap is to reuse the stock parts that came with the t56.

Will a t56 clutch have the same engagement issues as the t5 did at WOT?

turboj91

With the power and torque you have listed, I would not use a stock clutch.

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

NO NO NO

stock clutch suck, and dont last very long, if you are going to go with a stock style clutch get an lt4 clutch at the very least, there are lots of better aftermarket clutches out there.

but if you do a search on the internet youll find out that the stock lt1 clutch cant handle any power, and has alot of problems

383T/A

alrighty aftermarket clutch it is! Any ideas on a long lasting clutch capapble of holding my 383? (im not a fan of the strip style clutch disk they wear extremely fast)

TKOPerformance

I highly recommend S.P.E.C. You are probably good with a Stage II. It's still a diaphragm pressure plate for smooth engagement and low pedal effort. The disc is faced differently on both sides so that it provides excellent holding power without harsh engagement. Stay away from any disc that uses Kevlar as a friction material. You won't be happy with it, as the engagement is very harsh. They do last a long time though because of the near indestructability of Kevlar.

I've also found that the Centerforce Dual Friction package doesn't work very well on 3rd and 4th gen cars. I've had three different cars move through my shop that were having high shift effort problems. I replaced the Centerforce assembly with a S.P.E.C. one and the problem went away. I was curious, so I mic'd the thickness of the disc, and found the Centerforce disc to be significantly thicker than the stock disc. This meant that there wasn't enough travel in the throwout bearing to effectively disengage the disc 100%. The S.P.E.C. disc is the correct thickness. I don't think Centerforce really did much research when they designed the clutch. I think they just used a typical 26 spline GM disc with a different pressure palte and figured it would be fine. The problem is that you can't adjust the travel of the hydraulics like you can a mechanical linkage (unless you use the McLeod slave cylinder that has an adjustable arm), so you can't easily get the clutch to work properly. I was always very happy with the DF setup on older cars, but won't ever use one on a car wityh a hydraulic linkage.

If you're spending the money and taking the time to do this swap get what you want the first time. It would really suck to have to pull the trans back out when you find that the clutch you used isn't up to the task. Don't trip over dollars to save pennies. It's a hard lesson to learn, but if you just do it the way you really want up front you'll be much happier in the long run. Just my $0.02.

turboj91

Speaking of full disc release, is it mandatory to leave the plastic piece on the end of the clutch rod when installing the slave assy into the bellhousing (this is when installing a brand new hydraulic assy and the rod has the plastic tie down on it). It seems that if there is a concern on the amount of travel of the rod, that the amount of travel to full release point would be effected by having this piece in or not.

TKOPerformance

Do you mean the white plastic strap that comes attached to the slave rod when you buy the assembly from GM? I took that off prior to installing the hydraulics and haven't had any problems with clutch release. My understanding was that this strap was only in place to keep the slave rod from over-extending prior to installation, which could allow air to enter the system. I've also never seen any evidence of this piece in stock 4th gens when taking them apart, even for the first time.

turboj91

Yes that is what I meant. Thank you for the response.

MrDude_1

TTT

someone want to re-sticky this?

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

When you were cutting out the shifter area for room for the manual shifter, you said to jack the trans up then let down etc... With this method If I wanted to drop an engine down at the same time with the t56. I couldn't keep jacking everything up then down? Any suggestion for this scenario? Maybe I could just leave the bellhousing on the 350 , drop the motor in. Then work with the t56 seperatley? Thanks

jmd

iTrader: (4)

No reason to remove it whatsoever. Install the parts, first time you hit the pedal, it'll pop.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

When you were cutting out the shifter area for room for the manual shifter, you said to jack the trans up then let down etc... With this method If I wanted to drop an engine down at the same time with the t56. I couldn't keep jacking everything up then down? Any suggestion for this scenario? Maybe I could just leave the bellhousing on the 350 , drop the motor in. Then work with the t56 seperatley? Thanks

MrDude_1

um, why would you want to "drop a engine down"??


bolt up your Kmember, mount your motor, THEN do the 6spd install...

TKOPerformance

The only time I've seen guys install the K-member, engine, and trans together is with an LS1 swap. It's tough though. If I were doing it I'd still probably install the K-member, then the motor, then the trans.

MrDude_1

heck, i did a LS1 swap.. you can keep them together, just put the Kmember in, then put the engine/trans assembly onto the motor mounts (with a jack under the trans), measure + cut the hole, then put the trans crossmember in.

roughskinjrz

just a question as im goin to t56 i believe.

i took the old heads off my motor as im replacing with trick flows. i found the casting number to be 3970010 which i found to be 69-80 350 4 bolt main, which it is cuz i seen it being built. it was from a 72 pickup i believe.

now the question, what kinda of flywheel and clutch do i need to use for the t56 swap to put into my 3rd gen.

i already have the clutch pedal assembly since the vehicle used to be t5 then was changed over to a 700r4, but i want this back to a standard so im going 6 speed all the way

TKOPerformance

Stock style LT1 clutch and flywheel. Centerforce or McLeod conversion flywheel. 2-piece RMS to LT1 style clutch.

roughskinjrz

im sorry i didnt get that.

you said lt1 stock clutch and flywheel?

i thought i needed an aftermarket one, like mcleod or centerforce?


id rather now use the stock clutch, rather put a new one in it unless the transmission has very low miles.

i have 2 piece rear main seal i believe? so i wont be able to use the stock clutch and flywheel coming out out of the t56 donor could i?

TKOPerformance

The clutch and pressure plate yes, but not the flywheel. 1-piece and 2-piece enignes use different flywheels. You need a conversion flywheel from either Centerforce or McLeod. The description will say "2-piece RMS to 6-speed clutch" or "86 & earlier small block to LT1 clutch" or something along those lines. It's no big deal. I'm running a McLeod one on my car.

By all means use an aftermarket clutch assembly. Just be sure to get one for an LT1 car '93-'97 F-body. I'm using a SPEC stage III. Overkill for the street, a stage II would ahve been a better choice. I'm hearing good things about RAM's new line too.

Twilightoptics

I don't think this topic is finished.

No one has really talked about scatter shields in my searches.

I've got a 2piece rear main engine. The Trans will be out of a '94-'97.

I emailed lakewood, and they told me they don't make a bellhousing for my application? I assume you could just use an LT1 bellhousing?

McLeod on the other had, has not gotten back to me yet.
Their SFR Modular Bellhousing:
8710-15 1, 2, 5, 7 T56 FROM LT1 CAMARO

Notes:
1. LT1 CAMARO COMES WITH EXTENDED PILOT BUSHING. BELLHOUSING HAS NO PLACE FOR STOCK SLAVE CYL. W/PULL CLUTCH. BUT BELLHOUSING CAN CONVERT YOUR PULL CLUTCH TO A PUSH WITH A HYD. T.O. BRG.

2. CONVERTING LT1 TO PUSH TYPE CLUTCH - USE OUR KIT NUMBER 74010-1A-07 WITH STEEL FLY, OR 73010-1A-07 WITH ALM. FLY.

5. SOME T56 TRANS MAY REQUIRE THE FRONT INTERMEDIATE PLATE, CHANGED TO ACCOMMODATE MECHANICAL LINKAGE.


So, according to this, I would just purchase their bellhousing that would fit the engine block and transmission, a standard flywheel (in which a 168 tooth would fit), a standard clutch set that would have a 1 1/8" Dia 26spline (Same as a T-5), and I'd be set?

Aside from throwout bearing and clutch fork, which I'd have to figure out part number. Not sure what their kit 74010-1a-07 entails, but if it has a clutch, I'm certainly not spending $1000+ on the clutch alone as I see most McLeod clutches are.

http://store.summitracing.com/partd...15&autoview=sku

Is that the piece for the "bearing retainer." I assume that would bolt onto the bellhousing, the trans would slip into it. Would the input shaft come far enough into the crank to properly engage?
The lower cost of all pieces (Clutch/flywheel) should cover the cost of the adapter.

What is the intermediate plate, and they are talking about it needing to be changed for just mechanical linkages? As in, a lever from the clutch pedal to the frame, over on a pivot ball for the clutch?

What about hydraulics? When they say PULL clutch, does that mean that the clutchfork under engagement, moves the opposite direction of a standard say 3rd gen hydraulic setup


I saw in the Chevy High Performance Mag, that they installed a T56 onto a standard GM Bellhousing with an Adapter plate from Rockland Gear (Cannot find a price on their site). Then fabricated a bracket to mount the slave cylinder. They also fit a 12" clutch with 168tooth flywheel underthere aswell.

If this is the case, and you CAN just retrofit, why doesn't anyone?

I'm not going to put the factory bellhousing up there with a Spec Clutch (as I will purchase), if it means putting a scatter shield up later will require a flywheel/clutch/fork etc change.



I REALLY hope someone has encountered this.

Thanks
-Paul

MrDude_1

i would just use the same scattershields all the LT1 guys use... i dont know what one that is, but its out there.


the LT1 bellhousing bolt pattern is identical to your SBC pattern... so theres no issues bolting everything up. except the flywheel.


as far as the flywheel goes, with a 2piece rear main seal motor, you'll need a custom flywheel. you can buy them from several vendors, including centerforce.

Twilightoptics

I have just been unable to locate an LT1 standard scattershield, considering Lakewood says they don't make one... which baffles me.

Mcleod's is the only I've found, and for what ever reason, requires the clutch conversion.

$250 flywheel $310 clutch for old style vs
$340 flywheel $520 clutch for new style.

Just doesn't make sense.

TKOPerformance

Currently McLeod makes the only available scattershield, which is the modular unit mentioned.

The standard Chevy bellhousing + adapter plate method requires that the driveshaft and torque arm be shortened via cutting and welding. This is not something most people want to do, and why bother when an LT1 T56 and bellhousing bolts right in using the stock parts?

You need to use the 4th gen hydraulics, clutch, and flywheel (or the correct aftermarket unit as noted).

Twilightoptics

I'd rather use the stock parts when it comes to driveline and torque arm.

TKO, Do you have any experiance with the McLeod setup? Is it correct that I'll need the STD Flywheel/STD Clutch/ Bellhousing #listed/ and that adapter for the bearing retainer?

Or do I need that adapter piece at all? Would I still use the 4th gen hydraulics?

I suppose with 300horse on the ground I'm not readily going to NEED the scatter shield, but for future mods and piece of mind ya know? I've been toying around the idea of some giggle juice.

TKOPerformance

I've got to admit that I don't have any direct experience with the McLeod setup. When I did my swap I wanted to use a scattershield too, but one was not available yet. I read about it about a year later in Hot Rod and muttered some obscenities!

My understanding of the system is that it uses several parts, a block plate (matched to the engine), a scattershield section, and an adapter plate for the trans mounting. I would very much suspect that it is designed to work with the 4th gen hydraulics, but cannot say for sure. I think you need McLeod's expertise here. There was a chart in Hot Rod that had the engine in one column, and the trans in the other, and created a spreadsheet style index that allowed you to see what part numbers you needed to get a given combination together. There was a lot of oddball stuff in there like being able to hook a 460 Ford to an A833 Mopar 4-speed and such, so I've got to believe that a stock combination should be no sweat.

SNET Telly

What is the diffrence in an T56 out of 98-03 camaro. I know the thoughout bearing/ slave cyl is deffrent, but can the matching master cyl be used?

MrDude_1

the master cyl is the same between the two.
the slave is diffrent
the input shaft is diffrent
several internals are diffrent.
the clutch itself is diffrent
the flywheel is diffrent.


however, i believe the trans to belhousing bolt pattern is the same... so it will bolt onto it... i dont know about height (aka distance between the two flanges on the bellhousing.)

TKOPerformance

The LS1 T56 does not have provisions to mount the T-stud for the clutch fork used with the LT1 style clutch system. The LS1 trans is designed to use a hydraulic throw-out bearing. Consequently, it isn't as simple as just using an LS1 trans with the other associated LT1 T56 parts (bellhousing, clutch, etc). You would need to replace the rear plate of the trans, which is about $250 last time I checked. If you get a good deal on an LS1 T56 it may be worth it, but you will need to check the endplay inside the trans with the new rear plate, as it may be altered with the new part.

Twilightoptics

What is the rear plate? I found an adapter from McLeod that might work with the LS1 trans and T5 bellhousing.

Adapter plate, which has a bearing retainer on it.

TKOPerformance

The back plate of the trans, which has the input shaft retainer built into it. This part is different between LT1 and LS1 T56s. The LT1 style has a tapped boss for a T-stud to mount a clutch fork. The LS1 trans doesn't, because the LS1 uses a hydraulic throwout bearing, so there is no clutch fork.