Guest

I'm fascinated how there is no agreement on what F41 included each year.

okfoz

F41 may have changed from year to year...

As an examle of an RPO that did not remain the same:
WS6 from 1982 thru 1986 included the larger sway bars (varied from year to year) G80 (Ltd Slip), J65 (Rear Disc) Quick steering ratio, etc. (15" wheels from 82-84, and 16" wheels from 85 & 86)
WS6 from 1987 - 1992 36mm & 24mm sway bar, quick ratio steering box, 16" wheels, special Gas filled shocks and struts. The G80, J65, etc were no longer part of the package.

I would imagine that the F41 took on a similar life of its own, eventually as time went on it was more or less unchanged from year to year, but the early years it probably did change a little.

John

Vgibson

Well, the information I have from the first owner of the car...I am second..both of us ladies...anyway, ...it was just a 'base Camaro' not the z for that year...so, the prob does not help any, but that is what the buyer of the car told me...she only wanted the 'regular car', with the 305 V8--5.0...it does have the better interior, but no wood dash..what was also interesting was the instrument gauges...set up like the Berlinetta, only needles not digital..hard to get parts for this set up..only the after market ones as mentioned earlier.

Very curious now however, on the 'model' and I do like the stiffer suspension as it handles very well in the mountain turns and is really nice to drive long distance in...hard to find in new cars these days!

Anyway, trying to keep her nice, running well, and rust off....and as we all know...rust is the ongoing battle in any loved car! Whoa! Not to mention the rise in fuel costs, which I hope does not continue..if so, I guess I will eventually walk and just look at her a lot!!LOL Sigh. Anyone for horses??? LOL

Cheers fellows...love reading your comments!
Vicki K.

badaxxe

My mother bought a 1985 F-41 Camaro I now own it. It has 305 cu.in. 4 speed auto and 4 wheel disk brakes. I believe the F-41 is the rear wheel disk brake option.

SolarGoldRaptor

No, that is J65.

badaxxe

My car does have the F-41 badge so I don't know but the car does handle very well. I have been told through out the years that the F-41 was the disk brake option but ??? I am used to little sports cars as I have a Miata, MG Midgets and Datsun 1600 Roadsters and the Camaro holds it own. Too bad it is a gas guzzler, not as bad as my 1958 Delray with a 454.

SolarGoldRaptor

You should have a sticker under the center console box lid with all the options listed.

badaxxe

Do you know where there is a list to tell what each option is?

SolarGoldRaptor

Here we go ! https://www.thirdgen.org/rpodecoder

But keep in mind that its mostly accurate for later third gens, especially with color codes.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

The F41 was an optional suspension upgrade for the base Camaro in the early years. It split the ride/handling difference between the Z/28 and base car. It also included some additional minor bracing under the hood.

Later on, the F41 upgrades became standard on the Sport Coupe and RS.

scottmoyer

read the thread from the beginning and the definition of F41 is mentioned a few times.

kmcn47

i would love to see these

Edwardgp

Chris Slaymaker

heres a f41 badged camaro i found on my local craigslist. ad says -1985 Camaro F41. T-Tops 2.8L

kmcn47

what?

CoupedUp

I was the second owner of a '85 F-41. Throughout the years I only saw a couple of others, and inquired constantly for information about them. Finally one day I was talking to a Local Chevrolet Guru, and here is what I was told..... He said that Chevrolet used the F-41 designator throughout their product line through the years as a suspension upgrade..... He said you could find that designator being used for mid 60s cars as well.... However, when Chev first started the 3rd gen Camaros, they were restricted by only having two different suspensions to build with. They wanted to add a GT type suspension to the line, and the enlisted the help of some famous race car driver,(who's name escapes me) and gave him a Camaro to work with. He came back to Chev with a modified suspension pkg. that was only offered as an Factory Option. Now back then, If you were in the market for a Camaro, the dealers were loaded with every flavor imaginable, and most people who wanted the Muscle style car went after the Z/28s, and the others were leaning towards something a little more reserved. Most people didn't find it necessary to Special Order a Camaro.... Further, He told me that the suspension turned out to be so good, that they adopted it as the suspension used in the '87 IROCS, and newer? My F-41 was Special Ordered by a College Professor, and came equipped w/ a rear spoiler, T-Tops, 4BBL 5.0, 700R4, and handled as well as any Z/28 I've ever driven! I always thought of it as.... If they would've built a RS/SS Camaro in '85, this would have been it. Anyways, I rang up 217,000 miles on that car, and Sold it to Gentleman who exported it to New Zealand!

scottmoyer

Your local Chevrolet guru is incorrect. The F41 was the sport suspension used for the sport coupes. There were two levels of suspension and F41 was the upgrade. The F41 Camaro was just a Camaro that came pre packaged with the upgraded suspension. This suspension was not the same suspension used on the '87 IROC-Z. The '87 IROC-Z suspension was the same that was used on the '85. Minor changes may have occured over the years 85-90 to the FE2 IROC-Z suspension, but the '87 did not get the '85 F41 suspension and called it the FE2.

CoupedUp

OK.... Like I said, this is what was told to me, and at the time (late 90's), he was the first person to answer my questions with complete confidence, as he was the Parts Dept Manager for a very large Chev dealership in Seattle. Maybe I got it wrong, and they swapped them for the 87 Z suspension... Heck I dunno.... I know that my '85 handled as quick, and as well as the '83 Z/28. Anyways he was at least partially correct about Chevy's use of those numbers, as you'll find them listed in the links below.

I guess the real question would now be.... What was Chevy's criteria, to Badge a car with the F-41 Badge in '85, and how many were badged that way?

http://www.myss396.com/ChevelleInfo/...tionCodes.html
http://www.chevy-camaro.com/chevy-ca....asp?year=1967

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

The Camaro White Book says 19,231 F-41's were produced. The guy I bought mine from told me he ordered his that way. Don't know anything official though.

okfoz

Scott,
I was under the impression that the Base Camaro had the FE1 has the base suspension, and optional F41, The The Z28 had the F41 and the optional FE2... The FE2 from 85-90 was IROC...

yo soy el warg

I looked at the build sheet on my 1988 sport coupe with the F41 option and it had the same part number for the springs as my stock Z28 had in 1985 which had no up grade for its springs. So I think your right that the Z28 came stock with the same F41 up graded springs on the sport coupe. My 1985 Iroc has the FE2 springs which would have been the up grade for the 1985 Z28 as you stated.
But, if you were doing that to up grade the suspension why not just order an Iroc? Unless you like the ground effects a different color than the rest of the car and chose to stay with the Z28 package for that reason.

okfoz

Keep in mind that some people wanted the look without all the extra expense. Also be mindful that many Z28's could have been dealer ordered to stock a lot with an inexpensive Z28. The thing about cars is typically most cars sell with the base engine than the top engine, because more people are willing to or more able to afford those lesser options than the top of the line. The same could be said, why would anyone buy anything but the top of the line IROC-350, T-tops Leather interior, and all the goodies... Money Money Money...

Obviously less 4 cyl Camaros were sold than the top engine as an exception, but no one wants a complete dog either... nothing like going 0-60 in 20 seconds.... Oh the pull...

yo soy el warg

okfoz you bring up some good points about the marketing of these third gens back in its day were the final price tag was important.

Here are some interesting numbers:

1985 with the Spt Cp option were: 94,640
1985 SC with the F41 option were: 19,231

1985 with the Z28 option were: 68,403
1985 Z28 with the B4Z option were: 21,177



What this means is that 47,226 of the 68,403 Z28s built and 19,231 Sport coupes had the same F41 springs in 1985 and that 21,177 Z28s with the B4Z Iroc option had the FE2 springs in 1985.

About 1/5 of the sport coupes got the F41 option in 1985.
About 2/3 of the Z28's had the same springs as a sport coupe with F41 springs in 1985.
About 1/3 of the Z28s got the B4Z Iroc option with the FE2 springs in 1985.

I don't want to leave this out of the mix. In 1985 there were 3,318 4 cylinder sport coupes built so some of these may have had a part of the 19,231 units built with the F41 option, but I doubt it.

DJP87Z28

RPO F41 was a $40.00 extra cost option. Not much content for that price,

yo soy el warg

Your right about not getting much content for $40.00, but the actual cost was $49.00 for the option so it was even less content for the buck.

okfoz

But... The dealer could say as a selling point, "This one is a special order and has the suspension of the Z28!!! But that one over there only has the regular suspension."

You could argue further and say that you are getting more car for less...

Could you get the F-41 Suspension with anything but the V8?

John

yo soy el warg

[QUOTE=okfoz;5398003]

Could you get the F-41 Suspension with anything but the V8?


I'm not sure about 1985, but I have a 1988 Sport Coupe with a V6 that has the same suspension in it. It was called the "sport suspension". Sport Coupes and the IrocZ with the base 15" wheels came with the same wheels that year and P215/65R15 blackwalls.
The optional 16" rims on the IrocZ came with the P245/50VR16 blackwalls.

yo soy el warg

I just read that in 1985 if you ordered the F41 on the Sport Coupe you got the spring upgrade along with larger front and rear stabilizers, and special shocks on the front and rear with this option.

It also said that you couldn't order the F41 on the Z28 model. This makes sense because this was the standard suspension on the Z28 in 1985.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

How can the F41 be the base suspension option for all later 3rd gens? My 92 RS is an FE1 car. Is the "soft ride" suspension considered an upgrade over the F41 for "luxury" reasons?

okfoz

Sway bars, and the size of sway bars really have very little to do with how soft the ride is. They help in cornering and "spirit". There may be a little bit of harshness that comes with the ride, but typically the harshness comes from the shocks and springs... Also a decrease in the unsprung weight will make the ride more comfortable. That is why the GTA and Formula ride so much better than an IROC, the WS6 suspension used Gas shocks and struts, where the IROC used the oil filled which gave it a harsher ride, but the performance was similar.

yo soy el warg

You got a good point!

I also own a 1992 RS and it does have the F41 suspension listed in its RPOs, but you couldn't upgrade to the F41 suspension since it wasn't offered as an option in 1992.

The F41 may have come on my car with the optional LO3 TBI V8 engine which was an additional $369.00

You had to order the LO3 to get the N96 16" Aluminum wheels on an RS for $520.00 like the Z28s had in 1992.

When these wheels were ordered on my car you also had to pay extra for the QMT 235/55R16 all season blackwalls for $219.00 more.

So to get the LO3 engine, N96 wheels, and QMT tires as options it totaled $1108.00

The base cost of a V6 1992 RS was $12,075.00
The base cost of a 1992 Z28 was $16,055.00

The drawbacks with the RS are that you couldn't get the LB9 TPI 305 which was stock in the Z28 that year or the B2L TPI 350 as an option for $300.00. You also couldn't get the optional tires that you could on the Z28, the QLC 245/50ZR16 blackwalls for an additional $400.00

But there was no extra charge that year for the F41 on my window sticker, what a deal, GM marketing once again......

scottmoyer

Well, I have build sheets for 1992 cars that have F41 listed for both RSs and Z28s. The majority of Z28s had FE2. I do not have any build sheets for an RS with an FE1 suspension.

Now back to the mid 80's F41!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Not a build sheet, but it's proof at least. My car was a cheapo cheapo car apparently. It had 15 inch wheels from the factory, which makes me wonder if that has any correlation to the FE1 suspension. It probably doesn't, though.



It had teeny weeny stock sway bars.

scottmoyer

I just reread my post above and it's somewhat confusing what I said, huh?

In 1985, the base (standard) suspension on the non Z28 cars was the FE1. The upgraded suspension was the F41. The base suspension on the Z28 was the F41 with the IROC-Z getting the FE2. So what we have is, the F41 suspension was available on all models (IROC-Z is a submodel). You could not get FE1 on the Z28.

Base models ordered as the F41 Camaro with the F41 suspension, was a marketing gimmick so they could advertise the lesser model with the same handling as a Z28. Like was mentioned, there was also some interior trim added to dress up the car a bit.

John is correct in that the FE1 suspension remained the level I suspension on base cars. By ordering the sport suspension, you would get the F41, or level II suspension. The top dog cars got the FE2 during the IROC-Z years. I'm not up on how all options were aligned, but I have noticed that the FE2 suspension was standard with the 91/92 G92 cars. The build sheets that I have all show FE2 with G92 or F41 with non G92 cars.

yo soy el warg

My 92 RS also had similar options as yours with the LO3 V8 and the same highway gears as yours has. Just having that didn't trigger the F41 as can be seen on your car with the same LO3 V8 and no F41 upgrade.
So I think what triggered the F41 for 1992 was when you ordered the N96 16" Aluminum wheels like the Z28s had. Which you could order on the RS that year and were ordered on my car.
Then you automatically got the F41 upgrade which couldn't be ordered as an option in 1992.
This most likely is why mine got the F41 and yours didn't.

okfoz

I think in 91&92 the FE1 had the 15" wheels and the F41 had the 16" wheel option.
IIRC Tires were 215-65R16 for F41 and 235-50R16 for FE2 BTW.

John

scottmoyer

That's not correct. I have few 92 Z28 build sheets that specify F41 and they specifically have the N96 rim. Are you referring to RS only?

I also dug through my listing for a 92 RS. I found two with N96 wheels, F41 suspension with the L03 and 5 speed, so they both had the 3.08 gears, not the highway gears. I don't have the buildsheets for any base RS models, so I can't state completely.

yo soy el warg

So what's not correct? Read what I said I'm referring to RS only. That the rear gears or a V8 had nothing to do with the F41 getting added to a 1992 RS camaro. That it was the N96 Aluminum wheels that triggered that option on an RS in 1992.

hillntx

Interesting discussion. I have a 1985 Camaro Sport Coupe with the F41 option. I purchased the car in the summer of 1986 with 11,562 miles and completely stock. It has the LG4 305 V8, auto trans, front disc, rear drum, 3.08 open rear, upgraded interior and guages, tilt, cruise, A/C, auto reverse cassette player, and power antenna. My brother had a 1984 Camaro Sport Coupe with the F41 option that was equiped the same except had the base interior and guages.

The F41 as mentioned many times was a suspension upgrade that included 30mm front and 18mm rear sway bars, better springs and I think an upgrade from the base 195/75R14 tires to the 205/70R14. We purchased our cars from the Sears Driving School after they used them for a year. I imagine Sears ordered the upgraded suspension knowing the abuse the cars would receive. If you look closely at my windshield you can still see the Sears Driving School lettering in the sun faded tinted area at the top of the glass. I just graduated high school when I bought the car. I can tell you without a doubt it was not the Z28 package or the IROC package.

Many have mentioned the $49.00 upgrade price saying you couldn't get much. When items are installed at the factory it doesn't cost much to make changes. As my next car, I ordered a 1997 Ford T-Bird including a $250 Sport Option package that included stiffer spring rates, stiffer sway bars, larger front brake rotors, larger wheels, and a rear spoiler. Basically it was the 1995 T-Bird Supercoupe suspension on a standard car. You can get a lot for your money when they already have the parts in the parts bin.

fullsize fun

I just grabbed a steering box from a 91 camaro in the junk yard with the 16 inch wheels and f41 suspension, the front springs as listed in the GM heritage brochures online are stiffer than base but not as stiff as Z28s but rears are the same as Z28s . same with swaybars f41 where 30 mm front and 18 rear and Z28s where 32 front and 23 rear.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I'm not going to read the entire thread to see what's already been explained. Easier to just spell it out and leave it at that.

You can pretty much look at thirdgen suspensions with a 3 level hierarchy.
Level 1 : Base. FE1 on later cars. Soft springs, small sway bars, looser steering.
Level 2 : Mid grade. F41 in most cases. Basic suspension for Z28s and Trans Am, an upgrade on the RS, available on base models and 6cyls over the years. Bit bigger sway bars, stiffer springs, sometimes the hi-effort steering box.
Level 3 : FE2, WS6, IrocZ, later G92 Z28. Upgraded everything.

Best bet is to verify. Changes from year to year, and decades of owners swapping parts, it's a crapshoot what will be in a car now.

okfoz

The FE2 in 1991 should have had the same sway bar as the WS6... 36mm. I do not remember what year the Z28 went from the 32 to the 36mm. The Firebird WS6 36mm started for sure in 1986, maybe 1985 however.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

F41 was never the same as WS6. It's a middle selection with some attributes of the improved suspension, but not all of them. The sway bars are smaller.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

In the interest of full disclosure, the above scan is from 1989, before production on 91 actually started. I have a later copy of the same chart (1990) that shows in 91 the rear WS6 sway bar was reduced to 23mm. This could be a typo, but my 91 Formula's rear sway bar measures 23mm with a caliper. So does the rear sway bar I pulled off a 91 Formula several years ago, along with another rear sway bar that I think came from an 86 Firebird V8.

The F41 91 RS front sway bar that I salvaged last year was a 34mm as expected.
I replaced the front sway bar bushings on my Formula last spring, it measures 36mm, as does the bar off the same Formula I mentioned above.

The document the chart came from also says that 1LE front brakes would be standard on the GTA for 91, and shows HP ratings 5-10hp less than usual.

okfoz

Drew,
I am not sure if you are referencing me or not, but FE2 is the equivalent of the WS6, and I think WS6 included FE2. Yes you're correct the F41 is not the same as WS6, not even close. The F41 was the base suspension on the Trans Am for most years.

I think The 23mm sway bars were used because the 24mm caused the car to be too tight, the 23 was better IIRC.

John

Rickey Lawson

I have owned around 30 rs’s,z28’s and iron-z but as far as one coming with 14 inch rims is false maby a Berlinetta base that didn’t even have ground effects or side skirts and was cheapest they sold

Drew

iTrader: (58)

14" wheels were extremely common on early thirdgens. To get 15's you had to buy a Z28. 15's weren't available on the base Camaro until 85 or 86. All Berlinettas, and all Sport Coupes 82-84 had 14" wheels. Hundreds of thousands of cars.

hillntx

I bought my 1985 F41 Sport Coupe in the summer of 1986 with less than 12,000 miles. It had the 14" silver steel rally wheels with trim rings and 205/70R14 tires. I still have the wheels in my garage.

hillntx

30 cars out of a production of a close to a million over ten years doesn't make someone a product knowledge expert; its like the exposure equivalent of seeing the world through a straw. I've had the same one for 35 years and that doesn't make me an expert either; but seeing them all over the showrooms, car lots, parking lots, and on the road every day for the 15+ years they were commonly in use didn't hurt.

Vgibson

Yes. I own such a car. Sport Coup with the 14 inch rally wheels. The rims also had the removable triangle inserts. The F41 refers to the upgraded suspension which took out the play when cornering in the 3rd gen Camaros . The least expensive car was the sport coup F41 with up to a V8 5.1 liter. Mine is such a car with 5 speed automatic and had the decal with the F41 on it on the rear bumper from factory. I am second owner of this car and have driven it for 20 years now. Love it! No ground effects. However now u can get one for this car to dress it up.
My car had T roof from factory but some had those installed aftermarket. Tgere are 2 different T top sizes for 3rd gen cars so you have to check what size you have before getting replacements and parts. Cheers from Canada!