t_towner

I understand this is not the "For Sale" section but I'm hoping the moderators will read through and keep it here as most are special and historical cars.

As many of you know I have a pretty extensive collection of rare third gen cars and parts. The collection is heavily concentrated in the Firehawk and 1LE category. Well, today I walked through the shop and asked myself why in the world do I really have and need all this? Our 5th kid is on the way and I just don’t make time to come over here and play.

Before we get started, I don't need to sell anything but I've had several guys ask to buy cars over the years and I've always said "thanks, but not for sale." My real dream has always been to restore the cars and put them across the auction block with the proceeds going to charity. That's great, but today I have a stirring in my heart and I don't fully understand why I feel the need to go down this krazy path without a clear end goal in mind. Some of you may understand this, many probably won’t. At the end of the day it’s just “stuff” and you can’t take it with you.

Below is the list of cars. Most are very rare and well documented, several are one-off pieces. A majority of these cars are featured in a magazine. Read below the list for more details. There are several I plan to keep but I'm putting the list out here to see what sort of response, if any will be generated. It would be difficult, if not impossible to re-create this collection and I hate to break it apart.

There are no prices on the list and please don’t ask me to post prices. Bottom line, I will be fair and reasonable if someone wants one, multiples or the whole collection. I’m not putting this out to waste everyone’s time so please don't waste mine if you're not serious. I love chatting cars and if you are serious then let’s have a discussion. Please understand this isn’t a fire sale, it’s an opportunity to own some rare pieces that may never come back up for sale. FWIW, The Firehawk’s are expensive and all 3 should stay together. The FireAm also belongs in the expensive category.

The List:

1991 Firehawk #6
4,800 original miles, one of 25 built. - The car that started this whole collection. Published in two magazines and one hardcover book. Tons of documentation.

1991 IMSA Firehawk
1st 1LE built in 1991. Only remaining IMSA Firehawk known to exist. Full competition package along with many prototype SLP pieces. Very Rare and Trick. The ultimate Firehawk and one of my favorite cars.

1992 Firehawk #26
One of 3 cars built w/ Aluminum Rodeck engine. Last production hardtop. Brembo Brakes and Aluminum Hood. One of 25 Built.

1986 FireAm Trans Am
Last Fire Am built by Herb Adams. Prototype car built for Tom Goad (Lead Pontiac Special Engineer) for the 1986 One Lap of America. 350 TPI, 6 Speed (4 years before the 6 speed was available in the Corvette,) aluminum hood and Brembo brakes. Another very trick and one off special car that still has the experimental tags.

1989 Turbo Trans Am Cutaway Engine
Only one built by Pontiac. It's the TTA engine used by Pontiac to show off the new TTA in 1988 and 1989. The attention to detail is incredible. My dream was to set it along side one of the TTA convertibles.

1991 IMSA 1LE Camaro
Specifically ordered and built for the IMSA Fireahawk GS series in 1991. Very cool car that runs quite strong. Original paint with tons of documentation since the car was ordered new.

1991 Formula 350 Mini-Hawk
This Red Formula 350 decked out to look like a Firehawk with Ronal rims and 29k miles. Original owner wanted a Firehawk so bad but couldn't swing the $40k. So instead he ordered this Formula 350 and had the dealer install a paxton supercharger, SLP goodies and 4.11 gears out back. It's well documented and needs some work.

1989 1LE Camaro - Rick-A-Shay Race Car
One of 35 US built 1LE cars for 1989 (111 total 1LE cars built including 76 R7U players cars.) Rick Shay of Rick-A-Shay racing ordered this car and walked it down the assembly line. Lots of race heritage and 7k original miles.

1988 A4U Players Camaro
The 88 Players cars are the true First 1LE cars built. This car is 1 of 71 Built. These Camaro’s and the Trans Am were built before the 7 1988 1LE Cars (4 camaro's and 3 T/A's.) It has ALL the 1LE parts, plus a factory sealed engine. This particular car was driven by Tony Morris as number 88 from Flag Chevrolet. It took 2nd in the Western Division for 1988. This car runs and drives but will need to be restored.

1988 A4U Players Trans Am
1 of 20 Players T/A's built in 1988. It was not raced. Would only be sold as a pair with the Camaro. I call these cars the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde pair from the 88 Players poster. The Camaro was raced and this T/A is stock. Both cars are white.

1989 R7U Players Camaro
One of 76 Players cars for 1989. This particular car had aftermarket T-Tops installed early in life. Previous owner said it hadn't run in 2 years. I purchased the car, stuck it in the shop and haven't touched it since. I understand this may be one of the pace cars for the series. I'm told from the previous owner the car was raced back in the day but I haven't taken the time to chase down the history.

1990 1LE Camaro
One of 34 5 Speeds and last year of the Iroc. This is my wife's favorite car. Original owner lives in Kansas and special ordered the car new. No race history but a very nice driver.

1991 1LE Formula
White with tan interior. 1 of 46 1LE Formula cars for 1991. This is a project car with a Paxton supercharger and dealer installed AC when the car was new on the dealers lot. It currently has Trans Am front, rear and side ground effects. Formula nose, tail and spoiler go with the car. Runs strong but needs TLC.

1991 Formula 350
Red Formula 350 with gray interior. I bought this car as a daily driver "Firehawk" clone. Drove it for a few days, parked it in the shop and forgot about it. Now I just start it up every once in a while. Hasn't really moved since but it runs super strong.

1989 Camaro 350 T-Top
White with gray interior. Original paint on a rust free car. It was just broken into while setting outside of the shop (they also stole a very nice car hauler trailer.) Great project for someone.

I also have a 93 Cobra Mustang, LX Mustang and 1955 Chevy Convertible Project along w/ a TON of NOS parts and original Firehawk Pieces. At the moment I’m not planning to sell any parts individually unless we work out a package deal with the purchase of a car. If you see something you like then shoot me an email or PM and we can discuss. Feel free to make me a serious offer and we’ll see where things go.

This is real and I'm serious but I do reserve the right to come to my senses at any moment.

Thanks for your time!
Greg
wgreg76@hotmail.com

t_towner

For those who haven't seen the article:

t_towner

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will be in touch!!!!!!!!!!

ThePain

God I would love one of those camaros!


You're a lucky man. It's a shame you have to part with your collection.

t_towner

But I don't have to part with the collection..... just going to see where this takes us.

Greg

ellocojorge

iTrader: (1)

that is an incredible collection, i could not bear parting with those cars. how many years has it taken you to find all these vehicles?

RPM WOT L 98

iTrader: (3)

Wow, Greg, I am shocked, but I do undestand that you gotta go with what you feel in the gut.

I am kinda speechless, so there...

For those that don't know Greg, he is a super nice guy that has a great taste for cars, obviously, and knows what he has.

Good luck Greg.
Mark

scottmoyer

As was mentioned by the original poster, this is not a classifieds section. However, we'll keep this here because of the historical aspect of the cars being listed. Greg, I need you to make sure this doesn't turn ugly or go way off topic. Try to keep things on topic and we'll keep it here. Please respond to any financial dealings through PMs or email. I don't believe it's anybodys business what you sell these for except between you and the buyer. If you feel comfortable disclosing the sale price afterwards, that's up to you.

Thanks

GTA50

First of all Greg (if I may), thank you for putting together such a historically important collection. If I could, I would buy it all lock, stock and barrel. I would love to see the collection pass on intact versus split into pieces.

Again, thank you for putting together such an important part of Thirdgen history.

I have to confess that my collection - while small and not to the same significance as yours - causes me concern as to its future.

t_towner

Guys, thanks for the kind words and the PM's. This collection has been pulled together over close to a 5 year period (it took me 2 years just to find a Firehawk.)

I would prefer not to break up the pack but I believe it is time to thin the herd....so to speak.

With 5 kids running around (all 7 years old or younger) it becomes harder to "restore" cars as family is far more important.

Because of this I'm more willing to "move" cars that need a little work. At the end of the day I should probably sell 4 or 5 to consolidate down to one side of the shop.

Black_Knight

If I win the lottery anytime soon, you'll be getting a PM from me. That's a fantastic collection of cars.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I agree with the lottery statement

I'll be telling some of my local friends about this, as there are always a few people in St Louis looking for a Firehawk. If I wasn't knee deep in my LSX swap on my vert, I'd have one of those 1LE's.

90-irocdx3

iTrader: (4)

Can you please post prices!

GTA91

iTrader: (1)

Completely unbelievable collection... I have to thank you for putting together this collection and keeping the cars around!

I'd love to have some of those 'birds and 'hawks.

ThePain

Like even a ballpark?

camarozz383

iTrader: (2)

i would never get rid of a collection like that! but if i win the lottery ill have them lol.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Mucho respect for you, Greg. At the end of the day, they are simply that, just cars, and you cannot take them with you. I'll share a story, when I was a kid, my uncle worked for a local microwave satellite company known as WHT (Wometco Home Theatre), and he saved a lot of the reels of footage that they kept in their studio after they dismantled and became the Home Shopping Newtowk (HSN). They were literally giving it away, because cable tv was becoming too strong of a contender to deal with. Little did he realize that he got his hands on some extremely rare footage of Bruce Lee from his last film "Game of Death", only it was a completely different film intended for his Concord production company, and not Golden Harvest. For years, he refused to part with it, and has turned down an unbelievable amount of money. I kidd you not, he even got divorced over it, because it got the better of him. It was only recently in which he started asking himself the very same question you did, he looked at it and was like, it's just a few reels of footage, nothing more, and you cannot take it with you. Again, much respect for you Greg, and whether you come to your senses or not, always remember that family comes first....

God Bless,

-Rob

bungo78

iTrader: (1)

The moderator spoke on this subject in a prior post

okfoz

Greg,
After our trip from Tipp City back to Dayton together, I was wondering when this was going to happen. I honestly know where you are coming from, and I only have 2 kids... I keep looking at cars thinking I could restore this or that. Before I was married, it was no big deal to spend days and days working on my car because I had nothing better to do... Now that is hardly an option without making my wife feel that she is not important.

As I thought about your conundrum I thought about a solution for you. On the one hand you really do not want to part with the cars, on the other you just do not have the time to invest into them. Why not open a museum, and from the money made from there you could donate it to charity, or reinvest into the cars to Restore them and still donate the proceeds to charity. You could even take in "special cars" from other people, and it be a win-win situation where you could store a car for someone, and show the car in the museum... Its a lame idea, but why not? I almost feel bad about trying to talk you out about this... not sure why, probably from our conversation.

I would love to have any one of the cars you got there, especially one of the Firehawks. But honestly I have no good place to put it, I would have to sell one of my other cars And I would have to give it to my wife to drive... it has all the right stuff, Manual trans is what she wants...

John

FrankieRider2

Holy Cow! That's quite a collection. I applaud you for preserving such historic cars.... and I completely understand what you are talking about. I only have two GTAs and I can relate to what you're saying.

Either way, best of luck to you.

webeeZ28

iTrader: (2)

And exactly how was that explained? Rules state that you must list an asking price when selling a car. Because this is a "special collection", it's OK to put it in this section and the rules don't apply?! Moderator's pick an choose which rules to enforce. Nothing against t_towner, this is out right favoritism. With that said, all you bashers bring on your defense of allowing the rules not to be applied with this thread.

Black_Knight

What your talking about does make some sense however I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. The fact is that the original poster is only going to sell this collection with certain rules and stipulations. (Such as keeping certain cars together.) Given the condition and the value of these cars as a collection, if you have to ask "how much" then you probably can't afford to buy them anyway.

I'd love to have any one of the bird's here but frankly, I know already that I can't afford any of them so I know that asking for a price is a needless waste of my time and the OP's. That said the possible exceptions are probably the 1991 1LE Formula and the 1991 Formula 350 which aren't particularly valuable (though I suspect, they are still outside of my current price range.) At least those two cars are certainly not nearly as valuable compared to the other cars mentioned here though I'm certain they are excellent specimens in their own right.

kizz

iTrader: (1)

That's definitely a premier collection, which I've always admired.

Save at least one picture with ALL cars together before you break 'em apart!

And okfoz's museum idea doesn't sound too far-fetched to me.

If only I had the room for another car... I'd love to have a Firehawk.

grumpygreaseape

i am with you on this- at what point do you decide, more or less "somethings gotta give". i have a bunch (well a couple) cars that i wonder from time to time about liquidating. you are just doing what you feel is right-more power to ya.

camaronewbie

I have to say, selling or not, I GREATLY appreciate this thread being left here in this section of the board!

Why?

Without it being here, I'd not had learned anything much about these cars. I've seen mentioned a few times about Player's Cars, and FireHawks - but never saw pics, never got history, never really knew what the deal was (besides the fact that I intuitively knew it was beyond my financial reach).

But now I've seen pics, I've read an article, and I've learned - and THAT is what TGO is all about! I'd never seen this if it was limited to the classifieds, as I don't have cash to burn, and so I don't look. This NEEDED to be posted here, so we could see, and ponder, and appreciate this piece of our history that we all try so desperately to obtain, maintain, and revel in.

Bottom line is, this IS 3rd Gen related, and IS history related, and thus IS very pertinent to this section. Leave it, and stop your whining. You disagree, then YOU go out on the web, make your own board, and run by whatever rules YOU like. I'm sure that a vast majority of TGO members will agree that this is not simply a sales pitch, and the same majority appreciates this piece of history as much as I do.

Greg - I hope you end up in a place that makes YOU happy with this. And I GREATLY appreciate having the opportunity to see, and ponder, and learn about these cars. Part of me hopes that means you come to your senses, and save this art collection to pass along to your rugrats. But I understand, and applaud your attempt to "thin the herd" without too many tears. Good Luck to you, and again - thanks!

grumpygreaseape

yes sir-knowledge is good. so is the passing of (how would you say) some gems from an older age group (like me), to a younger group that still likes what they see when they see a 3rd gen f-body. i hope that among the enthusiasts (sp) they like the intent of these cars-tight and a great american corner carver. (iroc anyhooo)

RPM WOT L 98

iTrader: (3)

+1 on John's Meseum idea!!!!!!!

874ME

iTrader: (1)

T-Towner,

We all reach a point in life of asking what is important, and we all have reasons, excuses, justifications for our actions thereafter. You seem to have the means to support your hobby, but, alas, typically if you have the meens, you dont have the time.

If financial reasons are not driving your decisions, I would suggest, let these ignored priced possesions sit in your ownership. You appear to be a true enthusiast of 3rd gens. And you are a rare type, you have the means to purchase these vehicles and the knowledge to know which ones are hystorically valued.

If you stick to your decision all I can say is that I wish you would have offered up the FireHawk two years ago. I have the means to purchase one vehicle of this magnitude, the apreciation to want it, and the storage space availible.

I hope you reconsider and keep the collection intact. If you just need the room, and truly want to put these vehicles in the hands of people that will restore and put them into a public museum, contact the Lemay foundation. They are located in Tacoma WA. Lemay owned the largest museum quality collections of vehicles in the US, when he died, he willed the vehicles to the city of Tacoma with the understandin that they would build a museum for the cars. The company I work for bid on this a couple of years ago, so I know that is being planned.

874ME

iTrader: (1)

T-Towner, I wasnt very direct in my post. If you have the means, please keep the collection of 3rd gens intact, in your possesion. These vehicles are starting to appreciate in value and this is due to most of them being wrecked, scrapped or other wise being destroyed. Very few people have the forthought and means to purchase rare 3rd gens. \

They WILL become valuable, collectable etc.

Take a couple of your cleanest examples to a car show and listen to the people walking by. I did this for the first time last month with my 87 IROC coupe and 1990 IROC convertible. I heard the same comments from hundreds of people " I used to have a 19xx and wished I never got rid of it. It was the funnest car I have ever owned." Then they asked if I knew some one that had a car for sale. These were the same people that had old US iron in the show.

Please keep the collection intact in your storage.

t_towner

Ok, so here's part of the rest of the story. As most of you know I'm into real estate and that's pretty much the avenue that built this collection. Sure, times have been better, just like for most people but fortunately we are holding our own and should come out of this nicely.

For the shop we pay $22k per year for the mortgage, insurance and taxes....just to store cars. Not sure about you guys but that seems like a bad business venture.... especially since "cars" are fun and not a business for me.

One plan, sell about 4ish cars so I can stack and consolidate the cars to one side of the shop and lease out the other side to cover the overhead until the kids get older and/or a museum is started (I love that idea BTW.) All the cars are for sale and should the Firehawks sale then they will all sale and a new chapter in life will start. This would be hard for me but not out of question.

Again, I wanted to say "thanks" for all your support and response to this post. I had no idea where this was going to lead. Please understand that I will not post prices. Prices would be between myself and the buyer. If you're serious, please be specific and I will email my phone number for us to discuss.

SLP-GTA

iTrader: (1)

I fully understand the way you feel. throughout the years Ive had cool hobbies, from cars, guns, fun. Theres a point in life when you understand life is way more important than anything material....

Aaron91RS

iTrader: (2)

seems weird because for 22K you can build a building you own.
Heck I'm only a days drive. I'll glady build a building with that cash you can store them in. I need a bigger one to combine with what's in my sig and some more anyway and I have tons and tons of land already

Anyway I don't know your reasoning. All I can say is the one thing you have to think about is this collection can NEVER be recreated. Make sure you're ok with that part when you make your decision.

scottmoyer

What rules are you referring to that states an asking price needs to be listed when selling a car in the History/Restoration forum? There isn't a rule for that so that was wasted time and energy. There is also a rule that states criticism of moderators in an open forum is not allowed. If you read the rules, "The Administrators and Moderators of TGO have the right to delete, edit, move, or close any post for any reason without notice. Although we generally attempt to post, email, or PM an explanation of our actions, we are not required to do so." This also gives us the option to leave posts open if we see fit.

Your argument is a waste of time and space because if you look at the collection listed, it has a huge historical content. If prices were added, then it becomes a classifieds ad, which this forum does not cater to!! So, the fact that no prices were listed, means this can't be in the classifieds section because it violates the rules over there. There is not a single car in this list that is a standard run-of-the-mill car. With that said, I will close/delete any posts of people trying to sell their "regular" cars on this forum.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Such a wonderful collection... I wish I had the money to take that R4U Trans Am off your hands.

874ME

iTrader: (1)

T-Towner, so .......if no one makes an offer on one of the FireHaks you will keep the collection intact

Seriously, one option you should consider, take the 22K for next year, buy a chunk of land, pick up some shipping containers (steel prices have reached rock bottom, 8'x40' containers are cheap) and load your soon to be priced collection into the containers and store them.

You will not get offers close to what your possesions are worth, you know this.

22K a year is alot of money in this economy, but your collection will be worth significantly more when our nation comes out of this mess.
We will, becuase we are the greatest nation on the face of this earth, and every country knows this. They all come here to make money.

Maybe you can find temporary storge with an existing museum?

874ME

iTrader: (1)

Hard to believe this thread is being bumped by a FAQ type thread.

Bump...

dirtybrd88

iTrader: (3)

this whole thing leaves me speechless my trans am is of no significance to the nxt man but i hold dear to my heart and couldnt imagine the emotional turmoil that a decision such as that would have on me i love cars but theres something about 3rd gens that sets them apart from others to me i truely understnd family first and that at the end of the day they are cars but this caused me to loose a tear i can only imagine wat the collection mean to you Greg whatever the out come ....

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

As I said on the phone..... your nuts!
buuuuuuuut what are you going to play with when the kids grow up and go their own ways?
I do understand tho..
Your going to need a museum curator rite??
We are still planning the trip to get the red 350 car!

t_towner

Guys, thanks again for the words of wisdom. The 89 350 T-Top Iroc left yesterday morning (it was quite a story!) Lots of interest but as of now no other cars are officially gone.

FWIW, I've talked to several and I've set the pricing at what seems to be very fair.

I also still believe the Firehawks should be kept together.

Tony, let me know when you guys can come down and pickup the 350 Formy as I have someone else interested but you have first dibs.

Greg

GTA50

I am fully sympathetic to your reasons and it has given me pause to think about how I handle my Firebird collection from an estate point of view.

Just sad to see your collection broken up and sold - on the other hand, if it was just you trying to keep these cars together, then kudos to you and a sense of relief to reduce in numbers (try keeping horses LOL).

All the best,

Gary.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

He's got cars I didnt know existed.

I only see 2 he is missing.

One of the irocs that GM made all wheel steer.
The last thirdgen that got autographed by all employees. Someone on this board had it, was up for sale a few years ago.


Very nice collection!!! But I understand where your at, I'm in a similar situation where it would serve me best to let some of my stuff go, to move onto my next chapter.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Greg... VERY nice collection. You basically have my dream collection. I really like the idea of keeping these cars together. I mean...they are all special. If they get spread out all over the country, or possibly even the world, who knows if they'll ever be able to be enjoyed or viewed by other enthusiasts.

I know one thing...if I had a couple more vacation days, Ide be bribing you for a shop tour and Ide be on a plane to OK. I REALLY want to check out that 86 "Experiment". Ive heard of that car before...and always thought it sounded awesome.

Anyway...where ever this path takes you, I hope it all works out well in the end. Good luck moving the cars that you want to move!

You should definatly do another post showcasing each of the cars you have before they are gone. Lots and lots and lots and lots of pictures...perhaps some videos. Seeing/hearing these pieces of history fire up and possibly watching them drive never EVER gets old for me. Even if they are essentially the same cars. Ide sit here for hours reading the history and watching videos of these.

J.

t_towner

Dale, there are at least 20 cars I could rattle off my head that are missing. I'd love to have Leonard's "Last" third gen but I couldn't swing it at the time it become available. One thing I've learned, no matter what it is...there will ALWAYS be one more. There's only one thing in life I know of that brings contentment.

Things are sure getting interesting around here. Still not sure what, if anything is gonna happen or how it's all going to play out.

BTW, I went to the Bookstore on an unrelated issue and stopped by the Automotive section. I forgot about a photo shoot early this year for a coffee table book. Holy smokes, there on page 300 was Firehawk #6 in all her glory.

The book: GTO: Pontiac's Great One (Hardcover). David Newhardt is the author and it went on sell in May of 2009. Only problem - $50 cover price (yeouch!)

okfoz

I can think of a few that you do not have... A 1 or 42 Formula 350 Convertible, that illusive 1 of 3 TTA convertibles and the lone Firehawk Convertible... Tisk tisk...

I just rolled over to 37K on my Vert too... very sad day, had to drive it to get the cobwebs out...

John

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

Nice! Both my 92 GTA, #003, and #026 are in a Firebird History book. I still have the negatives and original pics from the shoot. I forget the name of the book off hand but I have an autographed hardbound copy from the author. It's a 1967-2002 Firebird history, Pontiac authorized too.

GICATA

I gotta jump in here and say "wow! what a group of cars!" Nice collection man.

I had a chance to buy a Firehawk from a dealer in 92 and wish like h3!! I would have, but I had an 83 I bought at highschool graduation and hated to get rid of it.

What a fool.




Good luck with the sales, and I hope responsible folks take them.

okfoz

My 87 is in the Book "Pontiac Firebird An Auto-Bioigraphy" by Marc Cranswick. My 89 Vert would be in the 3rd edition when it comes out.

John

Krik

iTrader: (4)

I have met Greg, and hes a cool guy, really knows his thirdgen stuff. I am positive your brother-in-law wants one of these. If you decide to put a price out there for my car's twin sister (the 90 1LE 5-speed), please feel free to call the car lot or PM me directly here.


signed
a very jealous fan

david068513

iTrader: (2)

whats the fireAM about? I haven't heard about them before. Didn't know they got a 6 speed.