lonestar7

iTrader: (1)

I've been trolling the internet ads for a while looking for my IROC-Z I and run into these "Police Interceptor" ads once in a while and was curious as to what is so special about these cars. On a 1991 Camaro RS with RPO codes B4C,BL2, is it basically a a Z28 drive train with bigger brakes, improved suspension? Other than small the production numbers, anything really special about these cars that make them worth the prices being ask for them?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

In 1991 not all B4Cs had the 1LE, so it may not have the 1LE brakes.

It was basically a Z28 in RS clothing. 350 AT or 305 MT, all hard tops.

KMK454

I have a 1991 B4C non-1LE. The easiest way to think of a B4C is a Z28 with RS bodywork.

A B4C car should have the following codes:
1FP87 - this denotes the car as a Camaro Z28
B4C - special service package
FLT - fleet car
Y86 - RS appearance package

My car has the J65 brakes and FE2 suspension from the Z28. It also has the LB9 305 TPI, the T5 5-speed, the QLC 16" wheels with 245/50/16 tires, the engine oil cooler, heavy duty posi rear axle, 3.42 gears, the dual-converter exhaust, radio delete, and the 105 Amp alternator. I'll see if I can post a picture of the RPO sheet later today; my car is actually a very low-optioned car. I don't even have a rear defrost!

In 1992, all B4Cs had 1LE.

Are they worth more than a regular 3rd gen? That all depends. If the car is a retired police car with 100k plus on the odometer, it would have to be in pristine condition and have some nice records or documents from its police days to make me interested. If it's a mess, then it's just as valuable as a V6 mess.

Low-mile survivor thirdgens of all sorts start to go up in value, with higher performance models (Z28, B4C, 1LE, etc.) getting the bigger bucks.

I wanted a hardtop V8 5-speed car. I prefer the 91-92s for their interior changes and ground effects, but I dislike the Z28 high-rise spoiler. The B4C is perfect for me.

lonestar7

iTrader: (1)

Interesting. So, was the 1991 B4C also available with the L98 5.7L motor?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Yes

scottmoyer

KMK454, just a few corrections. The 1FP87 does not denote a Z28. It denotes a Camaro Coupe. The 100k mile mess of a B4C will still be worth more than the V6 RS because it's still a V8.

The important thing to remember about a B4C is that the only way to get a 350 in the RS models was to have a B4C. Actually, the only way to get TPI in an RS was to have a B4C. As the years go by, these may be considered similar to the old COPO cars as these were not available to the general public and come in configurations not advertised to the general public.

lonestar7

iTrader: (1)

Anyone know what the BL2 code refers to?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Do a search:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...2l-not-my.html

scottmoyer

B2L is a package that consists of the L98 350 TPI. GM always uses an "L" code to denote the engine, but with the thirdgens, a lot of documentation refers to the engine as B2L. It also refers to the engine as L98 leaving us to believe that B2L was a package that consisted of all components necessary when having the 350.

lonestar7

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, I was getting confused with the engine code use for that model. So, a B2L is a normal L98 with no special performance upgrades but is a "special" package when put in the RS model. Is that correct?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

The only way to get B2L/L98 on a RS was the B4C package.

KMK454

Interesting. When I put my VIN in for insurance, CarFax, VIN Decoders, etc., it shows up as "Camaro Z28 Coupe." Well, a B4C will have 1FP87.

scottmoyer

Not a special package when put in the RS. All cars with the 350 get "the B2L package". It was mandatory to have certain options when ordering the 350, like the auto trans and trans cooler. I believe B2L is a package that when ordering the L98 350, the mandatory options come with it. You could not order a Camaro with just the 350 and no other options.

The only way to get the 350 "package" on an RS was to order a B4C. It was basically the same thing as a Z28, but dressed like an RS. It came with the upgraded suspension and better gears also. No other RS could be optioned like the B4C. That's what makes it special. In Ford terms, the car was ordered with the "Police Interceptor" package.

In regards to the 1FP87, that denotes the fisher body style. All 2 door coupes are 1FP87 and convertibles will be 1FP67. Z28s, RSs, Sport Coupes, etc were all 1FP87.

Mr.ChevyStroker

is that 100% true? Im looking into gettina 1991 Rs with the stock 16 inch wheels and disc's and its a T-top...

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

If you are getting a normal RS they were available with t-tops. This is only talking about B4C RS's.

Mr.ChevyStroker

Thats what I mean,it has the big wheels and brakes so would it be a b4c, but its a ttop, so did they make b4c with ttops?

86T/A_Ram_Air

No. All B4C cars were hard top and TPI. Not available to the general public new. All RS models were either v6 or TBI v8 in 91 and 92 in either hard top, t top or convertible. So what you have sir is just a RS that had been modded

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

The RS was available with the 16" wheels.

What motor does it have?

But from my understanding, no, t-tops were not available with the B4C package.

Mr.ChevyStroker

305 tbi...

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Then it is 100% for sure not a B4C as they all had TPI motors. Either it doesn't have the 1LE brakes or someone swapped them on.

scottmoyer

He didn't say the car has the 1LE brakes. He just said that the car has 4 wheel discs. That was available to the standard RS also. It sounds like the RS you're looking at has some good options, but it's still just an RS.

Mr.ChevyStroker

Okay just confirming it because I was hoping that it might have been a B4C package since I noticed that it has 245s all the way around an some discs as well. But its no biggie.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I took the "the car has big wheel and brakes" to mean the car has "big wheels and big brakes".

Mr.ChevyStroker

Yeah my bad about spelling and grammar.. I type way fast to care sometimes... :P

86T/A_Ram_Air

Yes I took it that way as well

scottmoyer

Well, you guys took it wrong then, ok!!!!!

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

scottmoyer

Thank you, thank you very much!

okfoz

Actually I am not entirely sure if the B4C was not available to the general public. In 2008 at the Camaro thingie in Indy, I parked next to a B4C and he said he bought it brand new in 1991 or 1992 from a dealer... It never saw service... I do not remember the particulars, like whether or not he was a police officer, but it was rather odd I thought at the time, that he was able to get one new... It may have actually been a car that was ordered with a fleet, but they never took delivery.

Also IIRC the B4C would have been the only way for the RS to get rear disc brakes J65, perf axle G92, or ltd slip G80 after 1987...

In the early 80's I think you could have ordered a SC or Berlinetta with the J65 and/or the G80, but a lot of that changed in 1987.

John

KMK454

What were the details on that B4C in Indy? My car has paperwork floating around indicating some time in Indy in the mid to late 2000s. It is one of those "never seen service" cars that was sold directly to the public. The email correspondence I have with the original dealership in Illinois (guy who ordered it still worked there a few years back) said they knowingly ordered the B4C for showroom stock without GM knowing they didn't have a government fleet buyer. I'm not sure what, if any control mechanisms existed to prevent non-fleet orders of the B4C model, but there must have been something as the overwhelming majority did see service.

The reason it seems like there are so many non-service B4Cs is that the ones who did see service are usually parted and destroyed after years of abusive police use, while the non-fleet ones are usually preserved. It's rare to see a restored fleet-use B4C wearing its original police livery.

The B4C does not have G92; it's G80 and GU6 for a 3.42 posi rear. It does have J65. The easiest way to think of a B4C is every performance option available on the top 91-92 Z28 models (non-peanut cam LB9 or L98, J65, N10, 16" wheels with Gatorbacks, etc.) in an RS body. Half of the 91 and all the 92 B4Cs had 1LE, which gives the car bigger front brakes. Mine is a non-1LE car.

okfoz

Really, no G92? Hmm... the axle must have been part of the B4C then too... Kind of like the axle on the Y84 = perf axle, and the W66 = Perf axle when equipped with the LB9/MM5 or the L98...

Also I kind of look at the RS B4C (early 91) like a Formula, it is a base model with the performance goodies... the neat thing about the B4C cars is their rarity, much more uncommon than the Formula.

neilcase

What if I told you fellas that I know of a 1991 B4C convertible? I know you're going to say they don't exist. I just went to look at some wheels posted on CL. The guys tells me they came off his mothers car 3 days after she took delivery in 1991. The wheels were pristine and obviously had never seen the road. Her husband (this guys step dad) was western US GM sales head honcho. The car was secretly special ordered for her. I can tell this guy knows a decent amount about cars. He says he also owns a 67 and 69 Z28 as well as a 68 aluminum head 396 with every option available. Normally I would think it was a bull story. But where did this guy get a virtually brand new set of 1991 aluminum wheels that obviously were never used.

Either he is the best liar I have ever heard in my life or this is one heck of a story. I am currently working him to see if he will let me see this convertible B4C. He says it hasn't seen the road since 2002 and is covered in pigeon poop in some storage unit he has.

Would you think this thing has any additional value being it is probably the only one? Typically performance options mated up with convertible does not always mean double the desirability. Any thoughts? I think it will take some time to get him to sell it to me but I think we eventually will do it.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

In for info on the possible B4C vert.

neilcase

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. But anybody have any idea what B4C adds to a cars value? Obviously the lion's share of these things went to parts and never never land so very few are left around. But is there demand for them? And if so how does one go about valuing one? I don't want to offer the guy something he will laugh at and I also don't want to over shoot an offer either. He says it has about 35k miles on it.

Any thoughts on that would be great. thx

scottmoyer

The story is BS. If the car was so rare, it wouldn't be in a barn covered in bird poop. Plus, the story of how it was special ordered because he was someone special is as old as car stories altogether. Unless I see a SPID label that has the VIN code 3 and B4C, I won't believe it. A picture also is not what I mean by seeing it. Photoshop works wonders.

neilcase

I'm not yet saying the story is valid. I've been around the block a bit myself and I can smell a liar just about every time. Did you read the part that said he also had a 67, 68 and 69 uber rare camaros not to mention he said his brother inherited the 63 split vette. Sure it sounds like a pipe dream but I met the guy at a house that was worth at least 3 million dollars ( I know because Im a local realtor) He says his family is and has been loaded for years. (From GM stock I suspect). So for this guy a 91 B4C is not that big a deal thus the possible reason its been sitting for 20 years. Hell poor people have been known to hoard incredibly rare cars.

I'm only interested in knowing this. If it checks out does anybody have an idea of what it could be worth.

scottmoyer

There's nothing to compare it with, so if it existed, it's worth whatever it can be sold for. There are no comparisons to give a real world value.

JT

iTrader: (1)

I checked Compnine's database and they show no records for any 1991 Camaro convertible with the B4C option. Not the final, but it doesn't help support the story.

neilcase

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm going to offer him 10 grand if it checks out. a regular old 91 convertible is worth that much with only 35k miles.

neilcase

This guy says he was there and remembers when the car was ordered and delivered. He says it took 8 months to get it. I told him I think its a 2 VIN that was probably sent to ASC to get dealer converted. He says its a "Z28" too. I think there is some chance it is real but also a good chance it is not. I'm sure there's no record of it since it was probably an off the books thing that could only be pulled off by a high ranking exec?

I just didn't get the feel that he was lying or ignorant either. He just didn't have any motive. I was there to buy the wheels not the car. He's filthy rich and doesn't need to hood wink me. I'm going to pursue it and I'll let you know how it turns out.

okfoz

here is another hole... In order for ASC to convert an F-body, they had to start with a T-top car... The B4C was NA with T-tops as it was intended for police service, T-tops are a luxury item not required for special service or police cars...

So that leaves another possiblity... The Car was originally a B4C police car, someone took the top off of a T-top car, installed it on a B4C, then sent it to ASC oto be made into a Convertible.... It just all seems too far fetched to be feasible... I have seen strange things, but I would like to see the SPID to say yeah...

neilcase

Thats a good point that I'd forgotten about! Which adds to the needed requirement that it WOULD take a GM exec to pull this off. I'm still very skeptical but it sure makes for a good mystery. As I said this guy simply had no motive to make all this up and he knew just enough to make the his story worth looking into. He knew it was a one off car but it just didn't seem like any big deal to him. He said his family was always ordering "special order" cars.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Subd!

kencr250

I might have the Indy 91 b4c 5.0 manual
Never in service white, red interior it's 1 of 1

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Like the 1LE cars, did the B4C ones get the T-Top trans tunnel with the extra bracing as part of the package?


Ok, you have our attention - lets hear the details.

KMK454

The LB9 T5 B4C will hit 150 MPH in stock trim.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

LOL What? When did a braced transmission tunnel become a thing? I've got to see some documentation or pics of this.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Are these running changes that were used in all production cars after a certain point or specific to body style or engine/trans combination? I'm not sure if it's ever been determined.

Hard Top floor pan with smooth trans tunnel.



T-Top trans tunnel with ribs.




Hard top 1LE with T-top ribbed trans tunnel.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Considering that Dirt E. Bird is a hardtop sixer body originally, and has those same ridges stamped into the tunnel, I think we can consider any link between the stamping and ttops, or 1LE, as busted.



My 91 Formula hardtop has the ridges too. Old pics show no ridges on my 86 T/A hardtop. I don't have many pics of the ttop cars I've owned, none with the carpet removed that would show if they had them or not.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Busted it is, I do wonder what the reason was for the floor pan change.