chazman

iTrader: (4)

Since the pump generates 10 psi at the fuel filter, I think we're going to hold off on the new pump for now.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Charlie - you can do that fuel pump yourself later on.

It was not that bad and should take 4-5 hours.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Or you can take about 1.5hrs and swap it with an access panel! LOL I just had to throw that jab in there I couldn't help myself. I know we are going to agree to disagree on that issue. :-)

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

An access panel is like cutting a hole in your gut to relieve a stomach ache.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

It's no different than cutting a hole for a manual trans. It also makes future repairs a walk in the park. Let me know how much the tow bill is when your fuel pump dies in the mall parking lot. That is after you pay the body shop to fix the damage the tow caused.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Honestly - cutting the hole for the shifter is the one thing that stops me from doing the swap in my car. It can never go back discretely once the hole is cut. I think that forces me to stay with an auto. It also forces me to drop the rear if the pump goes - and make sure a flatbed comes to pick me up if I get stuck due to a faulty pump. I almost got stuck on the highway with it this time around. I made it home by luck.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I've had my Camaro on a flatbed 1 time. I was 17, the car needed an alignment after some parts replacement and my dad wouldn't let me drive it the 2 miles to the shop. My bone stock (at the time) IROC needed wood blocks and boards to get up on the flatbed. Body damage would have been certain if A: the tow truck guy was a good friend B: I had blocks at home to run the car up on before getting up on the bed.

For guys that have a garage queen or only take small trips and can replace the pump as preventative maintenance, go ahead and drop the tank. Guys like me that take long road trips and drive our cars nearly every day, the access panel saves a ton of grief. I can't begin to tell you how screwed we would have been on the Power Tour last year when BIGMODS' fuel pump died in St Louis if he didn't have an access panel. With the acces panel there, it took longer to go to the speed shop and get another Walbro 255 than it did to replace the pump, and thats on a car with a fixed lexan rear window that does not lift up. With the panel in place what could have been a disaster turned into a 30min parking lot scramble that we laugh at and he was running 12.70s at the drag strip 45min later LOL.

If I had an 82 Recaro, I'd think twice about cutting a hole as well. For a regular Z28 or TA like 99.9% of the rest of us have, fire up the air saw!

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Well - considering the quality of work you did on your IRS swap, I am sure you did a nice job on the access panel as well. Too many of those access panels look like they were opened with a can opener.
It kind of gives the whole access panel a bad name.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

atually if Charlie needed his pump swapped(or any other customer thirdgen I work on) and was down for the acces panel I was going to get really professional and use riv-nuts and an aluminum panel cover. It would look like BMW, etc's panels on their cars from the factory.

On my GTA I cut the floor pan out of another car at that I had scrapped a while back. So I riveted an identical panel over the floor where I cut the hole. Body seams lined up and all.

On all my swaps I cut the fuel lines with an air saw, polish the OD of the lines up and reconnect them with brass compression fittings.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Interior totally reassembled. Fuel filter swapped and rubber fuel line replaced. Swap the muffler on this week and we'll be all set!

Van Nuys born

Nice, it will be like a different car.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Hope so! Otherwise, I've got a big bone to pick with Jeremy.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I've driven it on 3 short trips, probably 20 miles or so and I think it's a different car, so I imagine charlie will too.

novaderrik

one of my cousins got a sweet deal on an 84 (i think) Z28 with the crossfire 305 backed by a 700r4 about 5 or 6 years ago... the previous owner couldn't get it to run right- it would run great when cold, then die once it warmed up so he sold it to my cousin for $200... i was looking at it, trying to get it to idle, and accidentally bumped the temp switch wiring and it purred like a kitten... he then took it out and did many, many nice posi burnouts with it... it seemed to run pretty strong for a bone stock 80's GM product... he sold it to another cousin of mine for $500, and he proceeded to put a T5 and 3.42 posi rear out of an IROC or something it it... the car was actually a pretty fun little car when set up like that, then when the engine blew he threw a carbed 350 in it and sold it for $700 to a friend of his..

chazman

iTrader: (4)

The boys miss their brother....

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Finally someone else who doesnt think their cars are girls.... Neither of my cars display any feminine qualities. I think my Tahoe is a female however....

At any rate, tell them their oldest brother is getting it's "new" muffler as we speak.

Last night I cut the muffler and tail pipes apart becasue they were welded and crimped with those stupid muffler clamps. I actually cut one of the outlets completely off the muffler and made a new one.

Tonight I've reworked the tail pipe hanger, intermediate pipe hanger, fuel tank heat shield, and I'm going to have to cut the the intermediate pipe off clear back to the hanger and weld on a new bend so it will line up with the muffler. On jobs like this I start by lining up the tail pipes first, since thats the most critical part. I hang the tail pipes from the rear impact bar with zip tie loops and support the muffler with a jack stand. I've got everything lined up and the muffler is tucked up properly. Now I'll "fill the gap" between the intermediate pipe and the muffler with 3" mandrel bend. When it's done it will look as if the factory made them that way. I installed the muffler "upside down" so the scratches that were on it face up and you can't see them. I have a fine polishing wheel for my grinder that makes bare metal look almost like chrome. I'm going to see if I can polish out some of the scratches on the tail pipes, or at least smooth them down a little bit so they dissappear. I'll leave the rest of the pipe cleaning to you. Pix later tonight if I finish it before bed time.

eseibel67

Hey Chazman - your IROCs live in a nicer house than my family does.

Nice garage.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Ha! Thanks.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Got the car back today and put 60 miles on it just testing it out. I can feel exactly what Jeremy was talking about. It's almost like the car has a miss or something. I think I'm going to order a new cap/rotor/coil tomorrow. Feels like an ignition thing to me. I kind of felt it with the 700R4, but now it's much more apparent.

With that said, what a difference! 1st gear is very short, as we knew it would be, but 2nd-5th are just about perfect. I even chirped third on a full blast run through the gears once today. Once that "miss" is fixed, it'll be even better. The 2OTL has a nice burble a low RPMs and an angry roar when you get on it.

BTW, anyone know where I can get an old style AC pressure gauge? I think I need to top off my refrigerant, but can't find the old style gauge anywhere.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

More observations from my morning commute:

1) Any fears that this wouldn't be a different package with the T5 and 2OTL were unfounded. This is now a different car. And much nicer to drive than before.

2) I've noticed that my idle speed fluctuates. Like it's hunting for the right RPM. It varies between 950 and 1150 RPM. Maybe I need to check the top plate intake bolts for tightness, it's probably been over a year since I cinched them down.

3) Clutch pedal effort is greater than on my factory '89 T5. I expect it'll loosen up as it breaks in.

4) Although this NWC T5 provides accurate and precise shifts, the WC T5 in my '89 allows for faster shifting.

5) As I've mentioned earlier, the 3.76 1st gear is short. If I'm in 2nd on residential streets going from stop light to stop light I just leave in 2nd and start off there.

6) I can cruise comfortably at 55 mph at 1600 RPM.

More later......

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

1) the 2OTL really does sound great. I didnt know what to expect, but it's wonderful. No resonance, no window rattling, just a deep aggressive tone at WOT.
2) I noticed it idling at different speeds but it wasnt really erratic and didnt seem to affect drivability. I wired the shifter wiring to make the ECM think the car is in neutral so it will idle like an auto car in neutral.
3)Clutch effort is most likely due to the pressure plate. The Valeo plate I put on the car may be a bit stronger than the factory GM pressure plate, although that was not done on purpose. I'd say it is what it is unless the pressure plate is changed out.
4)I'm sure the carbon faced synchronizers and closer gear spacing all add up to a faster shifting WCT5 vs the NWC unit. The V6 T5 in my 91 would clash if you shifted fast, at least your's doesnt do that....
5)Pulling out in 2nd gear with a 2.93 rear cog, thats crossfire torque! LOL
6)Let us know what your mileage is, if you can keep your foot out of it!

Jeremy's observations from commuting back home from Charlie's house.
1)The car looks awesome roaring up behind you in the rear view mirror with the hood flaps up.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I'm keeping track of it because I'm curious. But my foot is in it.

It's so nice to be at highway speed in 5th and modulate your throttle position to accommodate traffic, without having that annoyng 4-3, 3-4, continuous down shifting and up shifting the 700R4 had.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Weird today. In a good way. It was a little cooler today, low '60's (weird on it's own for July around here). My Crossfire has always run better in cooler temps. That idle issue, was nearly gone. Instead of fluctuating from say, 950-1150 RPM continuously, it settles in to 1000-1050. That "miss" that Jeremy felt in first gear and so did I, is virtually gone.

82tarecaro or other Crossfire guys, give me your thoughts. Should I be looking at things like the CTS? Or is my crude ECM learning that something is different?

KMK454

Stock manifolds and cats still on the car?

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

L69 manifolds and aftermarket 3in single cat

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

I wouldn't think it could be CTS. My experience with that sensor is the car ran pig rich when it went bad. Have you ever cleaned the IAC valves? It shouldn't idle that high. I think it should be around 650 to 750 RPM. As far as the miss - how old are things like plugs, wires and cap and rotor?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

IAC's are good. Plugs and wires look new, in fact I think I have a reciept from the previous owner. Not sure about cap and rotor. I think maybe I'll replace those and the coil while I'm at it.

BTW, my exhaust has always been pretty sooty ever since I've owned the car.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

First MPG calculations: 12.06 mpg, but with a heavy foot.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

12?!? That's what my Tahoe got pulling your car back over there! LOL

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Ouch!

subroc

iTrader: (2)

That seems awfully low to me. I did a calculation of my mpg on a highway trip recently and i ended up with 19mpg. this is with everything done in my sig.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Charlie - your mpg should be higher then that. The exhaust should also be relatively clean if the car is running good. The only time mine ran rich like that was when something was wrong. If your cts is original it might be worth a shot since they don't cost that much. I am sure you probably did already, but did you ever change out all the vacuum lines? I found some pretty crappy lines in my car when I went through it over the past few months. I pretty much took the whole mess off and replaced everything.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, the MPG was pretty bad, but it was mostly non-highway driving. My best ever in that car was 18 coming from Indy.

I have searched for vacuum leaks everywhere. Last night I checked all of the top plate and TB bolts. A couple bolts needed about an eighth of a turn. If I rev the car in the garage, it spews black soot on the floor, I posted a pic of it on TGO once, I'll look for it. What's the procedure for testing your CTS? I believe you've got to splice the new connectors on to replace it, since no one makes the old style CTS.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Here's today's garage soot out of the 2OTL.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I did notice your old tail pipes were awefully black inside. With that much soot that fast Charlie I'd get that fixed and then start worrying about your catalytic converter, it could be partially or mostly plugged by now. That muffler was clean, and you're blowing black out of it already. thats not a good thing. My IROC will blow black like that after a day at the road course, but thats after 2hrs of running WOT at 12.5:1 air fuel ratio.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

Use acdelco 41-905 platinum spark plugs . I once got 30 mpg with my CFI 305 with a 195 thermostat. I am going to buy some NGK 7401 iridiums next . The stock copper cores suck .

chazman

iTrader: (4)

That soot has always bugged me.

When I got it, the TPS was way off and I adjusted it. The IACs were so full of gunk that they didn't function right. Those were cleaned/replaced. I replaced the O2. The high idle suggests a vacuum leak, but the only one I have ever found was a massive top intake plate leak, which I fixed.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

That's impressive!

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Charlie - honestly if you have never changed all the vacuum lines you should do it. Mine were so cracked and porous that there was no way they could have not been leaking. *** far as the CTS, I bought mine on Ebay with the connector for about 25 bucks. I replaced all of the sensors on the engine due to age. I found most of them on Ebay for great prices. There are a lot of sellers there that bought stock from dealers going out of business and selling parts for great prices. Find the part number you need and then search on Ebay for it. You will be surprised at what you find. The car is 30 years old. So starting fresh with many of those sensors is the way to go since their performance has definitely diminished over the years. And Jeremy is right. If your car is running that rich it had to affect the catalytic converter.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Just ordered an AC Delco cap, rotor and coil from Rock Auto......

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

MSD cap, rotor, coil, and spark plug wires are better. plus they are made in USA.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Better is a matter of opinion. Just sayin'

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

i drive my 83 trans am as a daily driver all year round. which is a crossfire 305.

the MSD cap, rotor, ignition coil, and spark plug wires still perform great after 5 years of Boston traffic (think LA or NYC ). so i say msd is good

n1ffer

Here are my thoughts and what I did. First off you have to remember that the car is now 30 years old. ODB1 does not do a very good job of self diagnostics, electronic parts and rubber vacuum lines deteriorate over 30 years and crossfire is very unhappy with vacuum leaks.

On my car I actually found the ECU that was in it was the wrong service part. I think it was for an '85 model year which didn't even use crossfire TBI. The car still ran and threw no codes which was a head scratcher.

I replaced the ECU with the correct service part. After that I still didn't have it running very well. Did new cap, rotor, ignition module, coil, wires and plugs.

It ran a little better, but still had issues - once again no codes.

I then did a cat delete and 3" exhaust from the original y pipe through a flowmaster exhaust. Still didn't run great and every once in a while throw a code - forget which one, but it is related to the exhaust running lean if I remember.

After that I decided that since these sensors and valves are all so old and ODB1 is not great at diagnostics I would work on replacing. I did a new CTS, new EGR valve, new MAP sensor, fuel relay, O2 sensor and the thermo vac switch in the air cleaner.

It ran much better after that, but still had some issues with the idle hunting and some bog.

One of the places I found the most vacuum leakage and the worst conditioned hoses were around the front passenger side for the cruise control and such. I replaced every one of those hoses and the car has been running for 5 years now with a perfect idle.

My fuel pump is shot and literally will not hold highway speeds without stalling. I have the Bosch TPI pump ready to go for the upgrade.

I can tell you that checking your fuel pressure at the fuel filter is next to useless. The fuel pressure regulator is located inside the passenger side TBI unit, so whatever you show before that TBI means nothing. I actually showed 12 lbs of pressure at that same location, but then checked between the TBIs and found 6 lbs at idle and it dropped to 1 or 2 lbs under acceleration.

You really need to find a way to check your pressure in between the TBIs.

And as someone else mentioned, once you get the TPI fuel pump you can go to the DCS website and follow the procedure to increase your regulator to run it closer to 13-15 lbs at idle.

My advice - check your ECU and possibly replace even if it is the correct service part number. Replace as many sensors as you can. CTS, MAP, Throttle Position Sensor, O2 sensor. Replace your EGR valve with the correct new replacement (can be really hard to find, but make sure it is the exact replacement). Check those vacuum lines up front like I mentioned. And check your fuel PSI between the TBIs and upgrade to the TPI fuel pump unless you are showing 12 PSI between the TBIs.

Doing these things will really control that idle and increase the power of the LU5.

Trust me, I know it and live it every time I crank mine up.

And for the record I also owned an '82 crossfire TA that was only 6 years old at the time. Blew the rear end and replaced the 2:93 gear with the 3:23 out of the T5 model. Also had the 200 3sp auto rebuilt with a shift kit. I could smoke tires and even chirp between 1st and 2nd. Luckily that car had all of the crossfire stuff working because I knew nothing about that system back in 1988! lol

Good luck!

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

You mean the vac lines on the driver side. And you are right - the fuel pump and sensors should be changed for piece of mind. They are not big ticket items and the car will love you for it. My car was running like crap and instead of trying to diagnose every little problem I took the opportunity to change every sensor, the fuel pump, and the vac lines. It has never run better. I suspect my problems were from everything combined.

FormerL69

iTrader: (2)

Sorry to do a mini hijack - but is the CTS the crank sensor?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Coolant Temp Sensor

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Thanks!

You mean the front driver's side, right?

In fact, I did replace several suspicious vacuum lines there yesterday.


Not to get into the closed loop/open loop discussion, but I noticed that my temp never gets over 160*, in fact according to my gauge, never even gets to 160*. Makes me think about the t-stat. Also, my clutch drive fan is always on.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Definitely worth a try to swap to a 180 degree thermostat.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I guess the silver lining here is, chasing down these issues keeps my occupied and away from looking at other project cars which I don't have the space, time and money for anyway.

I am so glad to be rid of that 700R4. Even with these little CFI glitches, it's so much more fun to drive now. In a perfect world though, I would probably decrease torque multiplication by 10% in first gear and increase it by 5% in fifth.