Munyguy

Started to check under the dash for any wiring problems tonight. The car had some critters calling it home for not sure how many years so chewed wires were a big concern. After pulling out a huge nest all around the main wiring harness right under the ECM I coudnt believe my luck....not ONE wire was damaged!! Looks like I can hook up the battery this weekend and see if everything powers up. I have posted some photos of the interior and the nice nest.
On a second note I took a picture of the label on the ECM (hope thats the right term) to see if anyone knows if this is a specific unit for the players cars or just the standard unit.

okfoz

That is a standard ECM, IIRC There are 2 part numbers for 86-89 ECMs

The original part number is the 1227165, there is another number 16198259 that is a service number on one of my ECM's, not sure what the difference is, I think the 161 is either rebuilt or just a later number, or a replacement number.

I believe the CKU indicates the original PROM for engine management. It has been years since I looked into all this...

One thing I noticed is the 16198259 does not have the PROM code like the 1227165 does. So that may be the difference, the 16198259 did not come with the PROM... it is just speculation mind you.

John

Mark_ZZ3

These have to be the RAREST parts you will ever come across. These are the predecessors to the 1LE brakes. Back in the 80's, GM was working on a brake upgrade for the f-bodies. This was the prototype stuff. When the series started, and cars were running through the corners, GM pulled this prototype and had a batch made. Literally overnight the brakes came into being. Pads created overseas, shipped to GM.

By 1988, GM wanted a production package. The Vette caliper was choosen over the Brembo simply because it already had DOT approval (so to speak). seals and such were acceptable.

The racing teams were suppose to return all these non-street-legal parts back to gm ... but a few teams kept them (at a cost of not getting back their bond.).

Very very cool stuff. Museum worthy.

Mark.

Mark_ZZ3

You need to open the panel on the ECM to see the PROM. A players specific unit will appear different than a stock unit. The part number sticker should be replaced with paint markings.

Mark.

Mark_ZZ3

For some history ... all 1986 players cars were 305HO shipped from GM to Canada. Each car had that original engine removed, stored, and a race version of the 305HO installed (hence no VIN on the block). The engines were hand assembled and blue printed. About the best of the 305's you could make. Engines tested out above the published 180HP spec.

The idea was that the teams could race the cars all season, put it back to stock and sell it. And it supported the old theme race on sunday, sell on monday. When fans saw and heard the cars on the weekends, they ran to the dealers to buy.

Again, the engine was to be returned to GM after the season was done. So very few of these race parts will ever been seen.

Mark.

Munyguy

The owner stated that some teams had dyno'd these engines. When they did the one I have it was in the 190 range which he thought was good. Then with further talking to the guy running the test he had said Spenard's and Buck's were just over 200 and I'm sure that's at the wheel not crank.

89iroc89

I am only 19 and this is all way before my time, but this interest's me 100x more than any smartphone or video game ever. Thanks for saving such a piece of history.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

That's probably the most encouraging thing I'll read all day.

89iroc89

Ha, thanks! I have a burning passion for these cars. I bought my first thirdgen when I was 15. And I have owned four since then. I work my *** off to afford these cars and treat them like they deserve. I wish I was around in the 80's.

Mark_ZZ3

I heard the same story. They wanted to know Spendard's car was so fast, so they dyno'd the cars to make sure they were the same power. And yes they had those number to the wheels (Chassis Dyno) ... where as us consumers had that as flywheel ratings. :-)

I can say when I first took my 88 out for a test drive (did not know what I had), I thought all that smoke was burning oil when I stomped on it ... LOL ... got back and saw the 30+ft of black tire marks. I figured I had a 5.7L ... but no it was only the correct-for-the-car numbers matched 5.0L. :-)

Of the few engines I've heard about that have been torn down, they are in fact blueprinted with weights marked on all the rods. Cam lobes checked. and so forth. Lots of pride in the assembly of the engines.

I think the 86 would be my favorite car (historically speaking). The only car delivered from GM race ready! And lots of prototype stuff that made it into production later.

Mark.

Munyguy

Got the passenger side lower dash all back together. Took pictures of the chips inside the ECM and looks like just a stock set as the players one should have some writing rather than a sticker???

Mark_ZZ3

The later PROM pacs had a PROM with the glass window (used for UV light to erase the chip). On a stock chip was a square part number sticker. On the race chips, it was a yellow/white paint mark (which matched the engine marks). As 1986 is so rare, I can't say I've seen them to know for certain. But since your car has pretty much everything associated with it ... Id have to guess it's there. They may have swapped the computers as a whole unit vs. the prom. Check your boxes for a spare computer.

Mark.

Munyguy

There must be someone with an 86 Players Camaro or Trans am that can check and see??? I haven't dug through all the boxes yet so it is possible but looked like the unit hadn't been touched.

Mark_ZZ3

Um, maybe not. I've only run across two or three over the years. They were not well known back then or now. I'm sure there is a few around ... but not many if any with all the race stuff.

The cars were only out East for the 1986 season. Many ended up racing at the local tracks after the series was over.

Mark.

Munyguy

Started piecing together the interior tonight. Quite the challenge when all the parts are on shelves and because I didn't take it apart trying to figure out how it all goes together is quite fun. Two hours and 3-4 trial runs and its all loosely put together and starting to look like a car again. Everything is looking in very good shape but boy is the plastic brittle and easy to break. The window switch connector literally started to crumble into dust. Here are before and after shots and one of the speedo showing the super low 3,882 km !

89junkyardgta

I feel I have to jump in here, just for a sec. Not meaning to steal Munyguy's thunder, but this is info worth sharing. In the past, I had a chance to talk with the guy that sold Munyguy the car in this thread. At that time it wasn't for sale, but he had a pair of other Players cars that he was selling, and I was looking at them for a guy on this board. While I was looking at the other cars, he started talking about the '86 T/A, as well as other Player's Racing stories. He claimed that he turned in the brakes as per the agreement and asked the guy at the dealership what exactly would become of them. Turns out, they were headed to scrap. So, somehow, he figured out when the scrap guy was coming and traded the guy a case of beer for the brakes. That's how they're still here today.

I wish I had known about these things back before most of them went to the crusher. There are a few still being raced locally. There is actually a Player's Camaro on kijiji right now.

Munyguy

Thanks for sharing that great story. The original owner did a great job preserving all the items for this car and you are definitely not stealing any thunder. The whole idea of this post is to share what I have and document as much as I can knowing how few of these are remaining.

nathan44

You own a piece of true American auto history.

nathan44

Unique cars for unique individuals

89junkyardgta

One more thing with regard to Spendard's car, and possibly others. The previous owner and I were talking about advancing timing on these cars, as I was driving my '89 at the time and found it tended to have a bit more power on the top end with the timing advanced a few degrees. He said that some racers (including Spendard) were going to the extent of removing the balancer, machining the outer ring smooth, and machining a new timing mark into the balancer so they could run advanced timing but still pass inspection. I want to say 7 degrees advanced was the magic number, but I am just guessing.

Another thing he mentioned was that one of the main points of these cars was so that average guys could go racing. According to him, most "average joe" racers ordered their cars loaded so they could be sold easier at the end of the season. And a lot were, hence why they are so hard to find. This is at least partly why a lot of Player's cars have power windows, locks, etc, rather than being manual everything like you would expect in a typical race car.

Mark_ZZ3

More on this story.

The brakes from 1986 were used again in 1987 as the 1LE brakes didn't come out until 1988. After the 1987 season, a large number of the brakes went to Spenard Racing school. The others most likely for scrap.

Mark.

Mark_ZZ3

There were a series of things the teams did to enhance performance. The tech inspectors ended up having tools to check for those exact "modifications". Quite funny. I heard of guys machining their rims down for less weight, bending diffs for more camber, pinching fuel return lines, and so on. Somewhere in my papers I have a check list from the tech inspectors.

The "options" on a players car is a story. In 1986, all cars came from GM as a batch, sent out to Kerr Industry for retrofit. Not much selection of options codes ... but I've talked to so few people with 86's it's tough to say.

In 1987 and 1988, teams could order options, typically the option "groups". Some went for the stripper for weight savings, others picked options for better resale. My 1987 TA was low option, and my 1988 had a few more. (It took me a while to track down a base AM/FM non-cassette stereo to put it back to stock).

In 1989, all car options were fixed (R7U was a package). Color was only choice.

There's lots of neat historical things with these cars, part of what made it into production later on.

1986 was the first ... and very cool to see how it all started.

Mark.

GCrites80s

Did the drivers describe the cars as snap loose? From watching the races on Youtube it seems like a lot of the incidents may have been caused by this behavior such as the double "spin" at Toronto. Snap loose is a common complaint about these cars when they are stock. While the cages may have mitigated that somewhat one of the best cures for that in my experience is subframe connectors... even with a cage. I'll bet there's no way that anybody was getting away with those though tech.

Mark_ZZ3

Subframe connectors were not part of the allowed parts. I'm sure cars used in races after the series did that. Both TA and Camaro had the largest sway bars (from TA) and the steering brace from the Camaro.

Most players cars suffered from the body tear in the upper corner of the roof where the window is. Too much flex.

In later years, to help with handling, the rear sway bar was reduced to 21mm. A R7U only option. Standard 1LE cars got the larger one.

Early cages were 6 point. Later ones were re-enforced with cross bracing like an "X" in the back, and cross bar down to passenger floor. Door cars were 1987-up. From what heard from the body shops ... the stiffer cages help keep the cars in shape when they got banged around. Made it easier to fix.

Mark.

okfoz

I am not 100% sure, but I would bet that all they needed was the shims from a T-top car in the door jambs to help with this and transfer some of the load from flexing down lower to the doors. I have seen too many otherwise nice 3rd gen hard tops with the tear... seems they could have engineered this out by 1987...

89iroc89

Every hardtop I've ever owned, and everyone of my friends hardtops all had the dreaded tear. It's a real eye sore, generally one of the top things on my list I look at when I see a hardtop. Finding one without the tear is like finding a mint dashpad uncracked.

Munyguy

Finally got the car over to the third bay and ready to go on the lift. This weeks jobs are drain and fill all fuids and get ready for a start-up. With any luck next weekend I will post a video of the starting!!!!

Munyguy

First good look under the car tonight. Pretty happy with what I see, no rust thru issues only some surface rust and everything seems intact. Transmission numbers match VIN so its as original as you can get. Oils draining so just going to disconnect fuel lines from pump and use small can for the start up so not pulling anything from the tank. Any suggestions to check tank for rust or debris other than dropping it??

Mark_ZZ3

ULTRA rare 3.70 Borg Warner rear diff!

okfoz

Yeah, I think it was the one year only, and only the L69's got them... IIRC Before that the Saginaw 3.73 in 1985 was used in the L69...

Mark_ZZ3

I'd have to dig up my books ... but I think only the Trans Am's got the borg warner diff in 1986. Camaro's had the 3.73. (I think).

Munyguy

Front brakes need redone and not sure of the struts yet. Let me ask those that are following....


1. Redo the factory brakes...or
2. Install the Brembo brakes and find some rotors if I'm taking everything apart anyway?


Pros and cons to both sides, I do have some extra pads for the Brembo brakes and car will see limited road use and zero if any track time.

Mark_ZZ3

Brembo's. That is one of the more unique parts of the car and the heritage of the 1LE brakes.

GCrites80s

So you have regular factory brakes or 1LE brakes now? I can't tell from the picture.

okfoz

A Few years back I think Brembo still had some rotors left.

Might have been for the Firehawks tho. Not sure of the difference.

okfoz

I think you are correct. Most things happened all in the same year, like 16" wheels, the engine changes, the transmission changes, however, The Camaro lagged one or two years behind the Firebird in some things... The 36mm/24mm sway bars of the FE2/WS6 suspension came years after introducted in the Firebird in 85 or 86 came years later, the B&W axle came a year later than the Firebird. The wide door bumpers were introduced in 1987 on the Firebird, and 1988 on the Camaro...

Sure there are other things, but those are the one's I can think of.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Just checking in to keep getting post updates

My vote is for the brembos. Put them on the brackets and see if they use the stock 1LE rotor or they need a larger rotor, id bet they use the 1LE rotor.

Munyguy

Just the factory brakes.

Munyguy

Pretty sure from what I have read its a re-drilled caprice rotor I need. I do have a spare set of standard front rotors and about 4 sets of brake pads new in a box but no good for the Brembo upgrade. I have the racing part numbers for the rotors and bearings to fit the spindles and have a good GM parts guy seeing what he can find out for me. If anyone just happens to have some NOS rotors for the Brembo brake pkg laying around collecting dust please let me know....

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Then it'll just be a 88? 89-92 1LE front rotor. (1LE, B4C, TTA, Firehawk)

Rick@GMEFI

Very cool build! Good luck!

Mark_ZZ3

They were re-drilled Caprice rotors for the first batch until GM made a part number for them. The race part from 86-87 was replaced with a 1LE part from then on.

You should be able to find a 1LE rotor for sure. Worst case ... I have a set of used ones from a race car ... the right part number and all.

Actually ... I have a set of pre-1LE brakes that came off a GM cut away car. the part number on the rotor doesn't match the 1LE parts, so it's an early one. I should have a pic with part numbers ... I'll see if I can find it.

Mark.

Mark_ZZ3

A 1LE brake setup off GM cutaway show car. Was a 1987 Iroc with exposed suspension, engine, etc. Showcasing GM performance parts and such. These were painted up for the show car. ZERO miles on them. Stock pads. Race teams received "SS100" pads taken from the Corvette racing of the day.


Here is the NON-1LE rotor number:


And a pic of a R7U-1LE front strut (correct for the car. Code LB. As per racing specs. Stock 1LE strut could be used as replacement)


The story on the R7U strut follows along about finding a stiffer race strut ... started life as a strut from a convert which is the stiffest of all apparently and Delco changed the valving for R7U. In 87-88 the struts were non-GM parts swapped in the cars. In 86 ... I suspect stock as there is no mention of changes.

Mark_ZZ3

More from the archives ...

Mark_ZZ3

And here is a 1988 set. These were hand built by PBR and shipped to the assembly line for installation on the 1988 cars in March 1988 (before the official 1LE brakes were released.

The calipers are not correct (they are vette parts - banjo bolt is on the side facing inwards to the car. F-body was on bottom of caliper pointing up). The spindles and rotors are from a non-raced A4U car.





Here you can see how the bracket was custom fit ... not a production part yet.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

VERY cool pictures! Thank you for sharing them and the correct info.

Munyguy

Thanks Mark...Awesome stuff, when are you opening up the museum???

Mark_ZZ3

You have to convince my wife that all my "junk" is actually museum quality. lol.

As with many of us "horders" ... hope that all this helps keep the history of our cars alive and well!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I have a 89 1LE setup and I'm thinking it also has the clearance notch on the caliper carrier. I'll check it out sometime.

Mark_ZZ3

Mine are tough to take off and put on. zero clearance. You can see harsh grinding lines where they took the last bit off. I assume the production ones had a more generous relief ... either on the bracket or spindle.