PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

I think the cross laced wheels look great on the GTA but much prefer these ^ on the Formula.

The only ones I don't like are the 87 convex wheels - prefer the concave versions with the studs.

scottmoyer

ledman, how does your post showing a $1500 purchase have any relevance to the a thread stating Formula 350 prices spiking? Like the Camaro thread that was started showing higher prices for low mile originals, this one also was started using low mile examples that represent the higher prices being asked for these cars.

A high mileage, rusty, car that needs a lot of work will not qualify for a higher price tag.

ledman66

iTrader: (2)

Just showing that prices are not necessarily spiking for formulas in different conditions they will bring different prices of course. My car is a project that I can drive. So that's the relevance Scott. Do you have anything better to do than follow my posts and trash everything and anything I sat on these forums? I used to like to come to this site but not so much anymore because of *******z like you.

scottmoyer

You are a really intelligent one, aren't you. Where do you get the idea that I'm following your posts. I have better things to do than to follow an individuals posts. If I've commented before about your posts not being relevant, than maybe you should learn from that. You must really think highly of yourself to think that I have nothing better to do than follow your posts!!

Oh and by the way, you obviously forgot about the user agreement you agreed to when joining TGO. Here's a reminder:

Under the Agree and Objectionable Message clauses, users are also prohibited from:

Posting insulting words, phrases, comments, or anything off-topic.
Name calling.
Posting just to get your post count high.
Substituting symbols or manipulating characters for censored words and/or phrases in an attempt to circumvent the censored words filter.

It looks like you're guilty of three in your one post.

kymmee

As I stated previously, I do think that their are Formula 350's out there that are bought for a great price. But you are not comparing apples to apples. If you get a "deal" on a Formula for $1500, by the time you totally restore it to close to the quality that these low mile ones are going for, you will have more money in it than you will ever get back out of it. And it will never have the low miles to back it. I got my 65,xxx mile, original survivor for a GREAT price and it is an original survivor.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Here we go again.

MJS422

Yep. Definitely not a fan.





In my opinion and based on the feed back I hear from people that inquire about my car. Not that many people are really willing to shell out the cash for Nice LOW mile / restored Formula's. Right away, everyone wants to know your bottom dollar. Prices do seem to be on the upswing, however not as much as some seem to think.

okfoz

I bought my first Formula in 1997 for $1,100. It did not run (spun #8 main bearing) but the body was in good condition, sans some small hail stone dents. By the time I got done painting it, installing a new interior, rebuilding the Trans an Engine. $6364.86 invested. Not bad, it looked pretty good, but that was in 2000, some 15 years ago.. But since then it has been all down hill from there, I have something ridiculous like $30,000 into it...

MJS422

You got a smoking deal on that car. I wish the previous owner was willing to sell when I contacted him about it. Would have saved me a lot of time and $$.

okfoz

I bought a Formula 350 about 10 years ago for $600, it did not run, happened to be an inline fuse. Repaired that it ran great.

bjpotter

This is the time of year for "smoking" deals. As we get closer to winter, prices tend to fall. Last year in November and early December, some great cars went for little money. It didn't effect pricing for sub 25K mileage cars very much but there were lots of nice drivers for under $5K.

scottmoyer

It only takes a single buyer to effect the outcome of future sales. That goes both ways, high priced buying and major deals. The same is true for the extremely high priced "muscle car" era cars. Many people want that '71 Cuda convertible, but most aren't willing to pay the high price. The same is true for the '69 RS Z28. The really nice ones sell for a high prices and the majority of buyers aren't willing to spend the price, but the few that are will get the premium of the lot. And with those high asking prices, people immediately ask what the seller is willing to take. It's not just these cars, but it's the entire industry.

The third gens are increasing in value, no doubt, but they aren't ALL worthy of high sticker prices. It appears that the upward trend is starting with the low mile original cars. Eventually, it will impact them all in one way or another.

okfoz

AS the Low miles cars get gobbled up, and really hard to find, the low-medium miles cars will start to appreciate, which will pull up the medium miles cars, and the higher miles cars.

Was not too long ago (I guess 10 years ago now) a friend of mine bought1969 Camaro with a 396 for $4000... So deals can be found, but they are far and few between.

bjpotter

As much as many people hope for big prices in the future, I truely believe the current classic car industry is in a investment bubble. Like baseball cards in the 80's + 90's, the investment industry is taking over the market. People are getting into the trade who are not real car buffs. They are investment vehicles for profit. I see these people at car auctions all the time. They are on the Car shows on TV looking for investment grade cars to buy. Paying $ to experts to help them. They don't buy one car, they buy 3 or 5 or 10. They are the ones driving up the price on the most rare, pristine, and desired cars. They buy the cars that have the greatest opportunity for appreciation in the 10's of thousands.

We are not there yet, and may never be. The market may collapse before that happens.

All the attention now to classic cars through auctions and TV rehab shows has created a perfect storm of new interest and raised prices accordingly. However, this won't last forever. All the media covering this industry won't last. The next new thing will come along and people will get bored watching the 15th Camaro or GTO rebuild the shows offer. Throw in gas price and availability in the future, and you can see where this will go. We are probably in the last cheap gas bubble. Will it last 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? Sooner or later cities will begin banning internal combustion engines for being "dirty". Some places around the world are already banning "dirty" diesel cars and trucks. How much longer before it arrives here? Once our cars can't be driven on the road, only the rare and interesting ones will be kept. Most of the rest will become scrap. Much like what happened to buggy's once the horse was replaced.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

I agree with most of what you have said here, however there is one distinction that needs to be made. Almost every home can afford a 3rd or "weekend" only car for low teens or less. That has been what propelled the 60's boom, then the 70's and now the 80's boom.

It will however be short and sweet so be sure you have the right car going in & and if you are buying it for an investment, be rid of it when it is done. I'm already seeing my friends lighten their load in muscle cars. Collections are being paired down - I'm doing it myself, letting my two Judges go last year and trying to unload one of my 455HO/4spd convertibles. If I have a half dozen cars left 10 years from now I'll be happy.

As we age out of this, there are fewer interested parties coming in behind us to keep this ball rolling. The low cost cars have the widest appeal, that's why the 80's cars are rising now.

Jason E

350 cars will always hold the value...but I've also seen TPI 5 speeds coming up even more these days.

Without a doubt, third gens are on there way up...which is exactly what I've told naysayers on here for the past 15 years!! Everyone needs to keep in mind that what someone asks for a car online is one thing...what they sell for is something very different many times. I got $2,500 off the asking price of my IROC when I purchased it in 2010.

Reselling it just a few months ago, I may have sold it a little light, but I feel selling a 25,000 mile original 88 IROC L98 for $15,000, in less than 2 weeks, without spending a dollar on advertising or fees, wasn't a bad amount to get for it. Keep 'em nice, everyone!

bjpotter

So many investors I know are frustrated with traditional monetary investments. The stock market and investment funds have been so manipulated by the financial industry, they are looking elsewhere to generate income. Myself included. I went with real estate, others I know bought collectibles, art, cars etc. They are driving the current collector's market.

I agree with you. There is a market for modest priced sports cars. That's what drives our market. The very best and rare will command good $, the rest are holding their value and rising slowly. Once 1-2K drivers disappear, we will see rest rise. Now is the time to find the 3rd Gen you really want, if you haven't already.

IMissMy86TA

whats why I bought mine when I did! the guy asked $8500 MORE than I paid..just sayin... but he was way off the mark for the time and I told him so.

Linson

100% agree.

Linson

Back to the topic of Formula 350s:

this post right here says a lot.
there are always going to be some who are more drawn to the Formula than the TA or IROC. and like okfoz said, we may not even know why at first. and - love 'em or hate 'em, those Formula rims are a VERY BIG part of the equation. stock-base-looking, except taller, wider, deep dish, and with studs around the circumference (like base model but tougher). then there's the off-center bulge in the hood, and the wrap around spoiler (like a Trans Am but sleeker). i think i realized the Formulas were the ones when i saw a graphic of one on a Lecarra or Grant steering wheel box in an Autozone probably close to two decades ago.

bjpotter

Resto Mods haven't been represented so far, here is a nice one. The same drivetrain I will replace mine with when its time to replace the original.

I must admit I do like the wheels on this car too. It has a LS1 and 4L60E. Owner wants 10.5K

BumpaD82

While I don't "like" the '87 wheels I do like that they are unique to the first year Formula 350's, so they can stay in the parts pile out back (unlike the stock ugly 16" wheels that came on my '02 Z28 )

My almost immediate solution, once the car ran:



So far I'm not very much $$$ into my 1987 FORMULA 350, MAYBE if I'm careful I could come ahead in a few years ! (most of my rides are just money pits, but I enjoy it )

~DaVe

Linson

thats pretty sweet. and yeah, those wheels look fine.

i dont love the exhaust tips. and the hood seems unnecessary. it doesnt look "bad" but to my eye, its not an improvement over the stock hood.

where is this car located?

okfoz

First Thing I would do to this car would be put a stock Formula hood back on it...

scottmoyer

Too many of you are thinking I'm being confrontational with a few of my posts, but I need to ask again how a $10,500 car, being a resto mod, is representative of the prices spiking on the Formula 350? The overall condition of that car would bring $10k plus every day regardless of the mods. To me, that is a low price to pay for this car with an upgraded engine/trans package.

okfoz

You are not being confrontational, you are doing your job... If any of you have seen the movie "UP" we are like the dog, say "Squirrel" and we all look over there, forgetting what the topic was about to start with.

IMissMy86TA

Squirrel! LOL
that line is so real and so close to truth of the human condition.

bjpotter

I disagree Scott. This thread is about evidence of Formula 350's spiking.
On the surface you are right, however resto mods have not been beating the prices of an original car. They lag behind them quite a bit. This is a good example of a car that has not been tricked out with a wild paint job and can be driven on the street. This is a good price for that kind of Resto Mod. I have yet to see one sell for 20K or more. It may happen, but that is rare and not the usual sale.
As it is, you would be one of the only people I know who would pay more for the car above. The body had 150K miles on it, the drivetrain 90K.
Being a Resto Mod 350, this IS a good price for it. If you know of a higher priced one for sale, please show examples.

scottmoyer

You provided absolutely no information about the car listed except that it has a new engine and trans. I said that based on the overall condition of the car, it appears to be in fairly decent shape. Now that you've provided more details, it again is representative of a high mileage car and doesn't follow the trend of low mile original cars prices spiking.

A resto mod is a restoration with modifications from original. Is this car a resto mod or just a high mile car with an engine swap? You said resto mod, so my response is that the car is priced low for a "restored" car with a new engine and trans. If it's just a high mile swap, then you're right that it is over priced. With that, then it doesn't belong in this thread!

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

a couple of nice ones on ebay. 1989 formula 1 owner, beautiful car 57k 10,995

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-Formula/271982559251?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D32480%26meid%3Da09f3399ba5e43d5a708447324081df0%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D301738201482

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

1989 formula 56k 12,000

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-Formula-350/151810240463?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D32480%26meid%3D6e917390238140198d65507a346b5463%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D9%26rkt%3D19%26sd%3D301738201482

scottmoyer

I love the two toned Formulas!!!

Linson

1. i saw no fine print that indicated that this thread was dedicated to low-mileage cars.

2. when i see these threads pop up which point to some "un-used" or "barely-used" Third Gens with somewhat high asking prices - as representative of Third Gens starting to command real money... well, i say that those cars do not represent the state of Third Gens. i would also say that (high asking prices aside) the very few SOLD prices i've seen are closer to the cars' original sales price - which, if you think about it, doesn't even represent a return on investment. so we're a ways off from the cars of the '60s and '70s that are bought and sold today for ten to fifty times their original price. i think a key ingredient in that magic formula is that those cars were originally bought for love of cars, not as investments. the first, second, and third owners were thinking about hot-rodding and looking cool - not about return on investment.

3. having said that, i DO think that Third Gens ARE starting to get some way past due respect. but to back this up, i cite the fact that solid, nice condition 120k mile Formulas, IROCs, Trans Ams, will sell for 5, 6, maybe $7k. i also cite the fact that those cars in that condition are selling for more than LT1 and LS1-powered 4th Gens in the same condition. it now makes total financial sense (from a hot-rodding perspective) to buy an LS-powered 4th Gen for the sole purpose of yanking its power-train to put in your 3rd Gen. i've even seen a few 4th Gens priced so low, but in such nice condition that it would be hard for me to justify picking such a car apart. lay-people are starting to connect with the Third Gen body style. they are not so common anymore, and they stand apart from anything and everything else.

scottmoyer

Just for the record, I don't think anyone is stating the price increase will ever reflect that of the muscle car era. A '69 Z28 , fully restored, in '99 was selling in the low $20k range. That was already 5x it's original price at 30 years of age. If that's the case, then then my IROC-Z with a $21k sticker should be about $100k now. I don't see that or anything even close to that. No expectation of the prices reaching those values.

okfoz

The 1st gens are hovering around $40-$50K for a nice condition one. They have been stuck there for the last 5-10 or so years.

It seems to be the top end for what people are willing to pay for an old used car. There are always exceptions like you see at the TV Auctions, but the reality is I would expect, with current trends in the next 5 years I would not be surprised to see cars that are selling for $10,000 now to be up to the $15-20K range. The prices have not dipped for the past year a quarter... They are outpacing the later 2nd gens right now as far as I can tell..

kymmee

Off topic, but one of the few cars I've seen other than mine, utilize the Show N Go front license plate bracket. lol

bjpotter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linson

having said that, i DO think that Third Gens ARE starting to get some way past due respect. but to back this up, i cite the fact that solid, nice condition 120k mile Formulas, IROCs, Trans Ams, will sell for 5, 6, maybe $7k. i also cite the fact that those cars in that condition are selling for more than LT1 and LS1-powered 4th Gens in the same condition.

Not to mention out pacing Corvettes of the same vintage with half the miles or more. Recently had a friend buy a 88. Paid $5,500 for a car with 39K. Nice, but not perfect. Had been sitting for a while.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

That's not an apples to apples comparison Scott.

And it's your tone that I think people take offense to....it's like a slap in the face sometimes.

IMissMy86TA

I have considered those as well but I really dont want to drill into her. it came with the lic plate frame originally since its an Ohio car.

okfoz

Still off topic... Love living in Michigan, haven't needed front plates since 1983

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

IL sucks...

IMissMy86TA

yeah rub it in
when I purchased this beast it didn't have front tags on but had the holes.. the owner didn't give me the bracket and I got a ticket out of it on one of those rare days I drive it. I bought a bracket from someone on here and well there it is

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Squirrel - ha ha!

okfoz

Down the Rabbit hole we go,
where it ends no one knows.
If one day we get back on material
It would be absolutely wonderful.

John

scottmoyer

How is that not an apples to apples comparison? A '69 Z28, at 30 years of age was selling for 5x it's original price. In that same line of thinking, an '87 Z28 (IROC-Z) at 30 years of age should sell for 5x it's original price, so $100k. We all know that it doesn't work that way, but that is very much apples to apples.

I'm sorry that you guys get a "tone" from a keyboard. I type it as it is. If you are misinterpreting what I'm saying or you're taking what I say in a negative "tone", then that's on you, not me. This is the same issue that Drew had for years that he would say it like it was and people didn't like it. Oh well. It is what it is. Maybe you that have issues with me should think about it or reread what I say and try seeing it from a different perspective rather than thinking negatively about my post.

Linson

i wasnt picking up on any "tone". so, just want to put that out there.

Linson

on the topic of any "price spiking" on Formula 350s, is it Formulas/Formula 350s in particular, or is this spike in line with Third Gens across the board?

if it is exclusive to the Formulas, then my best educated speculation is that it is because, as i have said before, i think that Third Gens are starting to capture the imagination of the humanoids. in the beginning, people will have only the name recognition of the IROC-Z and the Trans Am. then, slowly but surely, as people start perusing the Third Gen Market, a certain number of people will start coming to the realization that "i like the ones with that bulge on one side of the hood" or "the ones that have those wheels that have these, like, studs around them." IROCs and Trans Ams will remain popular, but i think that it is a surprisingly large percentage of people that, given these three options, would be more drawn to the Formula, which is objectively speaking, the sleeker of the three.

bjpotter

Scott, I'm a big boy who loves a good argument. I have taken no offense. If my responses seem brisk, I'm use to defending myself and ideas. You have a job to do, and I do my best to stay within the guidelines.

We all enjoy talking about our cars, and I hope to only add to the conversation, and not to become the topic of it.

bjpotter

When I purchased my Bird, the Formula "Look" was what appealed to me. I saw several TA's and a GTA (Who's look is growing on me. I like the JY with those black wheels), but just liked the lines without the ground effects.

The general public response around KC is constant. A large percentage don't even know what the car is, but they love it. I get at least one offer every month. Granted its for around what I have in it, but I'm constantly being complimented on my car. Even exotic car guys give me the look or a wave. I seem to have the only 91-92 style on the road daily around town. However look at local prices (Midwest) the vast majority of them sell cheap.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Nevermind