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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
Interesting thread; even more encouraging when the manufacturer responded... until they didn’t.
I’ve always been interested in how the Fox body Mustang aftermarket was so enormaous - and still is - while third gens only had a fraction of options. Even more disappointing is how many of those options are no longer in production.
I’ve only recently got back into a third gen after about 15 years of 4th gens and other modern LS-powered stuff. I expected the aftermarket to be stronger by this point. Hawks seems to be the only game in town for a one-stop-shop, but one certainly must pay to play. Like many of you, I don’t mind paying, but I expect a premium product for a premium price. Granted, I’m not at the rotisserie-restore point -yet- but I will be in the coming years.
With that said, the majority of third gen people - in my experience - have had the tendency to be quite cheap; to be unwilling/unable to spend the money on the best. This hasn’t been lost on manufacturers, and only recently does it seem as though people are willing to pay good money for items.
Personally, I’m at a much different place now than I was at 16 when I bought my first car - an 89 IROC - and I am willing to bet there are others out there like me who are starting to have some “extra money” (which I say loosely as there’s never really any extra!) and be willing to pay a premium for cars we wished we could have had in high school. I never thought in a million years I’d have a third gen 1LE, but now I’ve got one, and I’m actually racing it like it was engineered for rather than keeping it in a bubble. Who’da thunk?!
My point is like many others have pointed out, we need to speak up - tactfully - and let manufacturers know what we want and that we’re willing to put our money where our mouth is. Money talks - BS walks. Give us the proper restoration-quality pieces that are being provided to other enthusiasts, and we’ll happily pay (and there will be more and more third gen people willing to pay as time quickly passes).
I think the reason why the Mustang aftermarket modification is so popular is there is so much to improve on... When you have a 3rd gen, there really is not as much to make better...
I was there, I seen it. First of all, the L98's were expensive. Maybe not by today's standards, but salaries weren't as high back then as they are now by comparison, so a twenty five to thirty five thousand dollar sports car is essentially cheap nowadays, but not back then. Mustangs were very cheap, VERY cheap, and very light, and easy to mod by way of CAI and 3.73 gears out back, that is all it took for a 5-speed to be very quick for the street. Let's remember that back then 11 second cars were king, so a car that got close was raking it up on the street. Also remember they had the right advertising that targeted the major cities where most of the millions of those cars sold. I still laugh at this video, but it worked like a charm. Ice Ice Baby was released in '89, and the words "rolling in my 5.0" hit so many people who fell in love with the car just by looking at it, and because Vanilla Ice had one, that it forced Vanilla Ice's hand to do a song about that line alone...
Just for fun the thirty year old OE pulled off (the wrong spot) of my car and the NOS one that was tragically damaged in transit. And after my best attempt with super glue and a silver sharpie.
Still annoying it’s not mint but I’ve rationalized it thusly: the few cracks in the lettering match the factory paint with all its blemishes close up : )
I was there, I seen it. First of all, the L98's were expensive. Maybe not by today's standards, but salaries weren't as high back then as they are now by comparison, so a twenty five to thirty five thousand dollar sports car is essentially cheap nowadays, but not back then. Mustangs were very cheap, VERY cheap, and very light, and easy to mod by way of CAI and 3.73 gears out back, that is all it took for a 5-speed to be very quick for the street. Let's remember that back then 11 second cars were king, so a car that got close was raking it up on the street. Also remember they had the right advertising that targeted the major cities where most of the millions of those cars sold. I still laugh at this video, but it worked like a charm. Ice Ice Baby was released in '89, and the words "rolling in my 5.0" hit so many people who fell in love with the car just by looking at it, and because Vanilla Ice had one, that it forced Vanilla Ice's hand to do a song about that line alone...
- Rob
The difference it seems between Mustang and F-body owners is interesting. You buy a new mustang and everyone on the forums will be asking you, what are you going to do to it? Are you going to mod the engine? Are you going to paint it? But you get to an F-body owner forum and there are just so many more purists, "Don't change a thing!" or, "leave it alone." The culture is just different.
The difference it seems between Mustang and F-body owners is interesting. You buy a new mustang and everyone on the forums will be asking you, what are you going to do to it? Are you going to mod the engine? Are you going to paint it? But you get to an F-body owner forum and there are just so many more purists, "Don't change a thing!" or, "leave it alone." The culture is just different.
great point. It’s like the Mustangs are bought to beat around and race and with F-Bodies there was always an air with some folks that these would be classic cars. I knew a few people that wanted to preserve their thirdgens in a bubble even back in the 90s. I didn’t know any Mustang drivers like that. They were beating us 1/4 mile, but a lot of us didn’t care. Some of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc-hand owners of f-bodies that could now afford the cars are what seemed to tarnish the image.. I think that’s turning around since the inventory is relatively low and the prices are going up compared to cars of the same time.
Now if if we could get all the reproduction parts quality to catch up with the trends that would be great!
I just think out of the box an F-body was a better car. But for mods, the Mustang is really where it is at... Even today, I think a Camaro is a better built car than the Mustang... The biggest problem the new Camaro has is it is so uncomfortable, and near impossible to see out of.
The thirdgen aftermarket is great if you want to build a pro-touring styled LSx car to blow up social media and win at autocross and amateur racing events.
I bet if you made a LSx-styled replacement badge for the TUNED PORT INJECTION badge, it'd significantly outsell a quality TPI badge.
MMM... Some fresh reproduction Gatorbacks in a modern compound that doesn't sukbauls, a BBK Turtle-Ram, and a flawless reproduction TPI badge. That'd be the life.
MMM... Some fresh reproduction Gatorbacks in a modern compound that doesn't sukbauls, a BBK Turtle-Ram, and a flawless reproduction TPI badge. That'd be the life.
How hard is it to remove the original emblem if cracked and attempt to glue the cracks? $100+ for an OEM one seems a little steep to me, but maybe I am cheap lol.
Perhaps my question ought to be: what is the best way to remove the OE emblem without ruining it (further)?
Last edited by Bow_Tied; 02-03-2019 at 11:41 AM.
Reason: second thought
How hard is it to remove the original emblem if cracked and attempt to glue the cracks? $100+ for an OEM one seems a little steep to me, but maybe I am cheap lol.
Perhaps my question ought to be: what is the best way to remove the OE emblem without ruining it (further)?
I've done it before. It looks good and virtually unnoticeable on a driver quality car, but I wouldn't feel right on this car.
As someone who's been at restoration of various cars of various models since 1998 I guess I'm coming at this from a bit of a different angle. I've restored cars with very little aftermarket support even though they were mega-popular when when. Case in point the 1976 Grand Prix 50th Anniversary I'm finishing up now. From 1973-1977 as many as 250,000 per year were produced. I think the Monte Carlo and Cutlass Supremes of the same era were built in the same volumes or higher yet very little is reproduced now for them. So, when I went to spruce up the interior of my 1987 IROC I was very happy to find MANY parts available repro and even some NOS available yet at semi-reasonable prices like seat belts for instance.
On a more popular model, '68-'72 Cutlass\442, back in 1998 when I was restoring my first one, repro parts were much fewer and the quality was up and own. Over the years since then the quality of the repro parts may meet or exceed the originals in many case and it seems you can build an entire Cutlass\442 from the parts catalogs. I think it's just a matter of time and the F-body parts will follow with a wider variety of parts and with increasing quality. For now its a great sign that there is an aftermarket following at all.
So from me, a big THANK YOU to all the suppliers making third-gen repro parts.
Has anyone thought about simply making a mold from a good original? Even if you have a rough original you can putty and sand them for molding. When de-molding the original would likely be ruined for good. You could not mass produce/sell them but you could get away with making them for some of your cars. Some of you guys do have cars worth the time and effort. Simple to do.
Last edited by MrPackstin; 02-04-2019 at 02:21 PM.
As someone who's been at restoration of various cars of various models since 198 I guess I'm coming at this from a bit of a different angle. I've restored cars with very little aftermarket support even though they were mega-popular when when. Case in point the 1976 Grand Prix 50th Anniversary I'm finishing up now. From 1973-1977 as many as 250,000 per year were produced. I thing the Monte Carlo and Cutlass Supremes of the same era were built in the same volumes or higher yet very little is reproduced now. So, when I went to spruce up the interior of my 1987 IROC I was very happy to find MANY parts available repro and even some NOS available yet at semi-reasonable prices like seat belts for instance. So from me, a big THANK YOU to all the suppliers making third-gen repro parts.
It is not the fact they are making them aftermarket, it is the fact that the aftermarket ones are not right. Might as well go to Autozone, get 13 Letters, 2 numbers and a period. It would look ok, and to most people they might never notice.. But this is for the few who know what they are looking at.
There are repro parts that are on the money too.. which makes it frustrating they don’t get some really obvious parts correct..
It’s also weird that they don’t do a lot of the hard to find parts that you see a lot of people looking for with no NOS parts to be found, but the good reproduction parts they do are often pretty common place with lots of NOS alternatives (but higher prices)..
There are parts where they could pretty much name their price because people would pay for the piece of mind..
Last edited by 88IROCvertZ; 02-04-2019 at 04:26 PM.
I am sure that many of these parts are made for people who are trying to flip a car, not for someone who is trying to do a perfect restoration job. "Good Enough" is so common any more, it is no longer about how good of a job can we do, it is what can I make money at.
I am sure that many of these parts are made for people who are trying to flip a car, not for someone who is trying to do a perfect restoration job. "Good Enough" is so common any more, it is no longer about how good of a job can we do, it is what can I make money at.
Yeah, I recently saw an IROC for sale someone tagged me in thinking I’d be into it..
It was a decent restoration as far as paint and detailing
it has 18” “IROC” style wheels with skinny spokes that really don’t look right to me.
It’s an 87 with the Hawks 88-90 “IROC-Z” emblems with incorrect font..
The “Camaro” lettering was painted red
no door moldings
88-90 IROC decals and stripes on an 87
interior looked nice, but shiny black leather seats with red piping
Tuned Port Injection emblem was too small
incorrect steering wheel
I think it was a 40k mile car and the guy wanted $25k claiming it’s a flawless restoration..
The owner owns a body shop and I think to him it looked good.. said it was his personal car that he restored. I find a lot of people don’t even notice the things that are “wrong” and I feel like a dick for pointing it out.. A lot of my friends thought the 18” wheels were awesome, but to me proper Z28 emblems and more accurate looking wheels 16” even 17” repros would be better.. I can’t get past it.. Either do it right or go totally custom..
Does it ever bother you guys when a car with glaringly incorrect parts gets more or equal attention to your car because it’s shiny and has bigger rims? Sometimes that’s all that people see..
Yeah, I only have 16” wheels but they look almost new and are 31 years old! Anyone can go buy 19” wheels..
I am getting close to completing a nut & bolt restoration on my 68 GTO. nearly every repop part I bought over the years
was a big disappointment. It has slowed down the restoration process by searching & finding original parts & either paying
up for really nice or NOS stuff or restoring, re-chroming etc. Car should have been done years ago.
Assuming more parts will be made for the 3rd gens as they age, the bumper emblem is just
a small hint of what's to come down the pipeline.......
Hi.. In the past few weeks we've had about 1,000 of the Silver TPI emblems pulled and some of the gold ones. Red ones that were retooled recently are excellent. At SOME time..over the last maybe 24 months while in storage.. making these in batches of 2000 or so .. I suspect SOME have sweated.. in the plastic they are sealed in & packed down... that has effected some paint finishes. Some not all.
We put a slither of cardboard with the emblems each to help hold them firm. OEM were historically in plastic too, but not supported. The effect of storage, compression & heat seems to have buggered the paint on many.. may be described as flat or rough edged. Not horrid.. but we are cutting up heaps of them. If a product changes or its quality is crook.. we kill it.. like scores of perfect '89 TTA emblems with the pin 3/4 inch out.. bloody sad but so be it.. The 1979-81 Tail lamp lenses.. there's a heap of photos going around of about 50 being stood on..guys were crying about it.. but .. minor imperfections count.
In about 8 weeks ..as we have just finished redoing the red series better.. I'll re-release the Silver TPI emblems. The paint harder but not crack off or flare on any sides.... paint hardened but not melting the plastic the OEM ones were designed form. They really should be made of metel/ alloy.. but it's not viable ..and not original. To date in the last 6-7 years..we'd supplied probably 2,000 of these to owners.. this issue today has not been a long term one.
We want everything perfect.... the next batch may cost a bit more.. and will be better, but still nothing like NOS $.
If anybody that has purchased one of our emblems EVER.. (proof may be needed) and has an issue .. contact me -
.. Chazman.. as the new tooling is already done .. we expect to have more silver and more gold out in about 8 weeks. Keep in touch and i will send you a new one.
(Dave Clee) pwdistribution@gmail.com. Unlike our politicians... we don't run out of ethics.
Hi Dave.
It's been 5 years and 2 months. Waiting for you to get back to me on your retooled parts.
I bought a TPI emblem from Hawks and it's been on my car for about 6 months sitting outside. My original was falling off the car so the only comparison datapoint I have is that the reproduction was 2mm wider than the original. It seems like my font thickness and silver paint is more consistent than they were 5 years ago, so maybe the tooling was updated? Don't mind my peeling clearcoat:
I’m sure you noticed that he hasn’t been online since August 2017.
Yes, posting that for everyone's benefit. We did correspond by email after that though. If we are working on better reproduction parts, a good start would be emblems. All the ones I see for sale, regardless of vendor, are the same crappy ones.
Hi.. In the past few weeks we've had about 1,000 of the Silver TPI emblems pulled and some of the gold ones. Red ones that were retooled recently are excellent. At SOME time..over the last maybe 24 months while in storage.. making these in batches of 2000 or so .. I suspect SOME have sweated.. in the plastic they are sealed in & packed down... that has effected some paint finishes. Some not all.
We put a slither of cardboard with the emblems each to help hold them firm. OEM were historically in plastic too, but not supported. The effect of storage, compression & heat seems to have buggered the paint on many.. may be described as flat or rough edged. Not horrid.. but we are cutting up heaps of them. If a product changes or its quality is crook.. we kill it.. like scores of perfect '89 TTA emblems with the pin 3/4 inch out.. bloody sad but so be it.. The 1979-81 Tail lamp lenses.. there's a heap of photos going around of about 50 being stood on..guys were crying about it.. but .. minor imperfections count.
In about 8 weeks ..as we have just finished redoing the red series better.. I'll re-release the Silver TPI emblems. The paint harder but not crack off or flare on any sides.... paint hardened but not melting the plastic the OEM ones were designed form. They really should be made of metel/ alloy.. but it's not viable ..and not original. To date in the last 6-7 years..we'd supplied probably 2,000 of these to owners.. this issue today has not been a long term one.
We want everything perfect.... the next batch may cost a bit more.. and will be better, but still nothing like NOS $.
If anybody that has purchased one of our emblems EVER.. (proof may be needed) and has an issue .. contact me -
.. Chazman.. as the new tooling is already done .. we expect to have more silver and more gold out in about 8 weeks. Keep in touch and i will send you a new one.
(Dave Clee) pwdistribution@gmail.com. Unlike our politicians... we don't run out of ethics.
08-27-2018, 11:02 PM
