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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
Phil, please help us understand what we see. I don't understand your clay bar comments/questions. Do you by chance have better photos of these same areas to show that what we see is not paint, but maybe some camera image thing? Does anybody else have pictures that shows something different? Do we know for a fact that these above photos are of this car? Or just another Facebook/Internet fake news game someone started?
Let's put this issue to rest and prove it one way or another that what we see is of the 344 mile car, and that it is, or is not paint.
.....come on man............I think a lot of folks here are disappointed and trying to understand what happened.
IMO, it's a different story if you were not aware of these issues but what your telling us does not add up - I agree with Scott,
and my guess is we will see this car again, being flipped at another 2019 auction
First: why is this forum only picking the car I sold apart?
what is the motivation?
Phil, it's not just this car being subject to scrutiny. For the 1990 1LE:
Originally Posted by burnout88
I watched this one live at the auction. This car pulled 49k and let tell you it was not the cleanest car. There was a huge dent in the passenger side runner. And the engine in general did not look great. In the staging lane the car was getting a ton of interest. Alot of people checking it out and talking about it. 1LE is the hot ticket for Thirdgen’s. Phil’s 344 mile IROC was way cleaner.
For the Blue IROC
Originally Posted by RKeats
That blue Roc has a LOT of stone chips for a car with such low mileage. The purple haze one is sweet though, what a handsome colour scheme
Also
Originally Posted by CPC Norwood
Yes. Typical dealer offering. Dirty. Dented TPI runners and flat red paint, with bonus brush touch ups but nothing that could not be corrected.
Now the price that dealer wanted is starting to look like a bargain now.
I am very happy for the seller! Well sold.
One difference is that this car was announced to this public forum, by you the owner, as a low mileage and original. Somewhere along the line some questions and concerns were posed about some oddities with the paint itself and detailed on Facebook. Not uncommon or unexpected when the car's background of low mileage and originality is part of the value. I'm with Scott in that this could be put to rest by simply helping to explain what has been pointed out. Putting down the community for asking and wanting to understand what appears to be legitimate points of questions/concern? The course is turning bizarre when it need not be.
Some do get upset with the scrutiny that can be displayed here for any ThirdGen. At the same time, it is of value to any buyer to be informed. It is also beneficial to the community as we continue to still learn about these cars when this type of scrutiny and information is shared.
Nobody is picking this car apart, however, it's not beyond the guys of this forum to do so. They only mentioned the paint issue that was started on some Facebook page and said that people had questions about the paint. From there, you asked what the paint concerns were, and it was disclosed by pictures what came into question on Facebook.
From there, you mention camera angles, flash, clay barring, etc as an explanation for the red paint on black pieces. I don't understand your responses, and have asked for clarification. I don't understand how clay bar and tape can cause red paint on black trim. You responded to me that the end caps aren't painted in the plant but are vendor supplied. Again, I don't understand the relevance of that in relation to the picture that shows, what appears to be paint and clear, on the taillight molding. We all know that the taillights were not installed when the car was factory painted.
If you took this car for being a 344 mile car and didn't know that it ever had paint work done, because, really, who would think that on 344 miles, and just missed that when you had it, then so be it. It happens. We all miss things, especially when you don't think you need to look for it.
There's no reason to get upset or defensive about this. People are just curious and were asking about something they saw that didn't add up. Nothing else.
Did I ever mention that I let another member of this forum check out my car and within minutes I was asked about a few items that weren't factory correct? I had to replace my AC compressor and my sway bar end link bushings. Within minutes I was asked about these items. If I put my car up for review, I would bet that these guys would tear it apart and find everything that's not factory. And my car is thought by many to be 100% factory perfect. I'm sure they would find stuff that I didn't even know was different. I wouldn't take it personally though.
Gee, let's take a low mileage car, spend a bunch of time 'selling' it's authenticity on the premier enthusiast forum for that particular car, then let's take it to the premier collector auto auction in the country, and if anyone questions the "story" let's get all butthurt and start blaming the "community".
You specifically invited the criticism and discussion by creating the thread. Are there threads about those other cars? Is there any reason to scrutinize those cars?
Some people go to car shows and see the forest. Some go for the trees. Some go and shine a magnifying glass on the leaves and look in all the dark corners for the most insignificant of details. It's just the way it is. Some people are fooled by shiny paint on the top surfaces, a bunch of billet aluminum parts, crying time-out dolls leaned up against the fender to hide where Little Johnny bumped it with his bicycle. Don't take it personally if someone really scrutinizes the fine details, for everyone of them, there are a few thousand that couldn't care less.
The problem is not the fact that the car is an excellent example, the problem is there is evidence that the car is not what it was reported to be. Those other cars which have obvious issues were disclosed, or were just "obvious" therefore there is no requirement to pick them apart.
I have one question: What l kind of painter would not pull the tail light to paint? Seriously, how lazy do you have to be? it is a 20 min job at the most!!!
Regardless, there is an old saying "Caveat Emptor"
I spent the remainder of the evening at the auction with a dead I phone. So the snide post here by one of you with a cricket meme falls flat on its face.
Ok gentlemen for the final time.
The car was not repainted and this was verified by the original owner.
The car had consistent paint thickness measurements in all areas to verify.
Car was never even waxed. I taped off the car and clay bared it and this can be messy. Got red risidue off the plastic parts that were not cleared as part of the sssembly process.
the digital photos taken were deceptive and designed as a “hit” on the car and me.
No JT.. the other cars have gotten a pass- a big pass. Z28cop and myself are here at the auction and you are not-and the unchecked pack like attack that was allowed to happen here in this thread is simply over the top.
What drives all this? Simple jealousy.
i would suggest you clean up the thread it is a mess.
Gee, let's take a low mileage car, spend a bunch of time 'selling' it's authenticity on the premier enthusiast forum for that particular car, then let's take it to the premier collector auto auction in the country, and if anyone questions the "story" let's get all butthurt and start blaming the "community".
You specifically invited the criticism and discussion by creating the thread. Are there threads about those other cars? Is there any reason to scrutinize those cars?
Some people go to car shows and see the forest. Some go for the trees. Some go and shine a magnifying glass on the leaves and look in all the dark corners for the most insignificant of details. It's just the way it is. Some people are fooled by shiny paint on the top surfaces, a bunch of billet aluminum parts, crying time-out dolls leaned up against the fender to hide where Little Johnny bumped it with his bicycle. Don't take it personally if someone really scrutinizes the fine details, for everyone of them, there are a few thousand that couldn't care less.
You are talking in circles. So tell you what let’s just close the entire forum down because anytime anybody posts anything by your test above they are fair game for attack.
It wasn't meant as a hit piece or anything like that. He actually posted because he thought the car was beautiful. The poster simply took pictures of a car he liked and posted them. But it's obvious to everyone that the car has had paint work done. That cannot be denied. And to continue to do so, digs a deeper hole.
At first, I didn't understand why the new owner would feel so threatened that he'd have to remove the car from the auction. Perhaps I understand now, that he doesn't want the car scrutinized.
Scott, or anyone for that matter, I am not savvy on the Camaro end of things as I should be... Could someone get a picture of the tail light similar the one in question...
Your opinion is noted. I am a a 30 year car show judge. I judged the prestigious Gold Spinner concourse as will as the Hemmings concours and numerous other events. Restored many top cars including the last Norwood Camaro. I located and authenticated the first Camaro ever built and got this particular car inducted into the HVA.
Author and automobile historian and automotive assembly expert.
i have been over every inch of this 344 mile car. Cleaned it carefully.
——————-
Now what exactly qualifies you-or any one of you for that matter - to tell me anything about this particular car?
None of you have any first hand experience with it, nor did you own it or work on it.
Im my opinion:
You were suckered by a set of photos and you decided to publicly attack me and the car. It has now backfired and you guys are left trying to fight your way out of a self imposed corner. I am far from being in any kind of a hole here whatsoever.
Your opinion is noted. I am a a 30 year car show judge. I judged the prestigious Gold Spinner concourse as will as the Hemmings concours and numerous other events. Restored many top cars including the last Norwood Camaro. I located and authenticated the first Camaro ever built and got this particular car inducted into the HVA.
Author and automobile historian and automotive assembly expert.
i have been over every inch of this 344 mile car. Cleaned it carefully.
——————-
Now what exactly qualifies you-or any one of you for that matter - to tell me anything about this particular car?
None of you have any first hand experience with it, nor did you own it or work on it.
Im my opinion:
You were suckered by a set of photos and you decided to publicly attack me and the car. It has now backfired and you guys are left trying to fight your way out of a self imposed corner. I am far from being in any kind of a hole here whatsoever.
apologies are in order.
Phil, I'm not trolling at all. I like the car. I like you. You asked what was the controversy with the paint and I posted those pics to show you, otherwise it would have stayed on FB. Personally, I would have been okay with a, "oh wow, hey I missed that". Instead this is all just spinning out of control.
No one is attacking you or the car. But you are attacking EVERYONE for what they see in the pics.
how many times do you want to tell you the same thing? You get the same answer you do not like it, you are caught in a position where you might have to admit error in judgement and you are simply unable to do so.
that is why this thread continues. It is beyond silly at this point. Friendships and relationships are at stake.
is it worth it???
pointing out the hypocrisy of some of the members here...absolutely guilty as changed and proud of the fact.
Scott, or anyone for that matter, I am not savvy on the Camaro end of things as I should be... Could someone get a picture of the tail light similar the one in question...
I want to see how it compares to the picture
Here are a couple similar angled shots of my 92 Z/28 vert with factory original paint.......both with and without camera flash........it's the same color car as the IROC in topic
Your opinion is noted. I am a a 30 year car show judge. I judged the prestigious Gold Spinner concourse as will as the Hemmings concours and numerous other events. Restored many top cars including the last Norwood Camaro. I located and authenticated the first Camaro ever built and got this particular car inducted into the HVA.
Author and automobile historian and automotive assembly expert.
i have been over every inch of this 344 mile car. Cleaned it carefully.
——————-
Now what exactly qualifies you-or any one of you for that matter - to tell me anything about this particular car?
None of you have any first hand experience with it, nor did you own it or work on it.
Im my opinion:
You were suckered by a set of photos and you decided to publicly attack me and the car. It has now backfired and you guys are left trying to fight your way out of a self imposed corner. I am far from being in any kind of a hole here whatsoever.
apologies are in order.
If you don't see or understand what all of us are pointing out and questioning, you should have your judging credentials taken away immediately, I would not want you
judging my car if you don't understand what many here are trying to explain to you.....
Phil, I have to say that I'm disappointed in the attacks your throwing at the TGO community. Absolutely nobody threw any insults or judgments at you, but you keep mentioning how sad we are. We've asked multiple times to explain what we can clearly see in the pictures and you keep mentioning camera trickery and now compound. I will accept that if that's the case. I was not at the auction so I have zero first hand knowledge of what's in the pictures. I'm just trying to understand your side. If you used a red compound when buffing the car, then great, but you said it was never waxed, so I'm confused. You said that the clay bar pulled up red from non cleared red parts of the car. What parts aren't cleared? I thought the entire car is a base/clear paint process. If there are vehicle colored painted parts on the outside of the car that don't have clear, I was unaware of that.
I will say once again, nobody is insulting anyone here or attacking anyone here. We should be able to have a civil conversation about this and if something appears to be incorrect, please correct it with the information asked for. TGO is well known for not allowing falsehoods and incorrect data to be documented. If all of this is a misunderstanding, please help us fix it.
Here are a couple similar angled shots of my 92 Z/28 vert with factory original paint.......both with and without camera flash........it's the same color car as the IROC in topic
Checkmate..
Most of us could care less if it was repainted or not. The problem I have is that someone paid over Hagerty's #1 value for a car that was presented in the ad as an original paint car and it's not. That to me is a substantial detractor in value, so someone may get hosed when they go to sell it down the road.
Phil, I asked to proved your point as to why you believe it's original paint and you never did, you just hurled insults at us. Why do you believe it's original paint?
Here are a couple similar angled shots of my 92 Z/28 vert with factory original paint.......both with and without camera flash........it's the same color car as the IROC in topic
Keep it up guys. You are still the ones on the attack trying to prove a point that is 100% moot.
OK Phil, I will take your word on this, but you've gotta admit, it "looks" amazingly similar to paint / tape lines
from some sort of paint work in several different places on the car
As to the back story there really is not much of one other than the guy purchased the car at age 37 and got busy with life and parked it. He started it 6 times a year and changed the oil every 3 years.
Here's the pic Phil posted a few weeks ago. Note the alignment of the door to the fender, and then compare this to the picture showing the horrendous door alignment in the new pictures.
I have absolutely no dog in this fight...but I question whether that's even the same car.
Another angle from Phil's posting of the car back in November. Granted, not the best possible angle, but I don't seen ANY misalignment of the fender relative to the door. The fender in the newer pictures shows the fender well inside the leading edge of the door.
I also asked many posts up if the pictures posted on Facebook were really of Phil's car. I find it hard to believe that what we see as possible paint on the trim was "missed" by Phil. He does have a long history of judging high quality cars. Again, I can understand missing something like this on such a low mile car that you wouldn't think it to have any paint work, but I also question if the pictures are of the same car.
I wish we could get another set of photos from Phil or Dan, or anybody else that's at the auction to prove that point. I don't have access to Facebook, so I can't say if any of the photos I see are here are actually of this car.
Ok guys. I need more investigation to happen because I am seriously doubting the pictures posted are Phil's car. Here's why. The bottom pic shows an extreme misalignment of the fender to door (as was just mentioned by Galaxy500XL) and the pic I added shows a perfect alignment. Also, the upper door molding looks very worn on the enlarged photo. Opinions??
I would agree Scott - Maybe Chazman can shed some light on this as he posted the pics from the
FB IROC group page - maybe he can contact the person that posted them on that FB group.
If this is a case of a fraudulent post of pics I'd like to see it exposed - too much of this crap going around these days
I would agree Scott - Maybe Chazman can shed some light on this as he posted the pics from the
FB IROC group page - maybe he can contact the person that posted them on that FB group.
If this is a case of a fraudulent post of pics I'd like to see it exposed - too much of this crap going around these days
Check out the FB thread, already. I'm not here to baby sit. Personally I don't care if the car is repainted or not. I'm neither the seller nor the buyer. Phil asked about the paint controversy being discussed and I posted the pics for him to see. I figured he'd want to know. I wasn't going to get involved, but he asked. In return he insulted me personally and our TGO community in general. I totally don't appreciate that bull$h!t.
Now the story is that it's a different car? Pulease!
BTW, I don't know the person who started that FB thread and took the pics, but I figured what the hell, I will contact him just in case, (just like you or anyone else could have done), and send him a link to this thread. He responded and confirmed it is the same car.
Check out the FB thread, already. I'm not here to baby sit. Personally I don't care if the car is repainted or not. I'm neither the seller nor the buyer. Phil asked about the paint controversy being discussed and I posted the pics for him to see. I figured he'd want to know. I wasn't going to get involved, but he asked. In return he insulted me personally and our TGO community in general. I totally don't appreciate that bull$h!t.
Now the story is that it's a different car? Pulease!
BTW, I don't know the person who started that FB thread and took the pics, but I figured what the hell, I will contact him just in case, (just like you or anyone else could have done), and send him a link to this thread. He responded and confirmed it is the same car.
Sorry bud, I'm not a member of that IROC-Z FB page so I cant see the posts - Yea, things are getting heated with this situation - only a couple people know the real truth about this and it's sad it has blown up so much.
But I do agree with Scott, it would be nice to see some cold hard facts and a final resolution to it as it may affect the cars value in the future, which may negatively impact the current owner
what a confusing thread .. one thing i can tell you as the owner of a body shop and detail shop and am very picky about my cars is that if those were not pictures of my car i could of told you that in 10 seconds .. and im sure biztech , chazman , scott etc .. would of known if that was there car or not also .. there would of been no debating it at all , talking about clay bar dust and all that other crap .. something isnt right ..
You are talking in circles. So tell you what let’s just close the entire forum down because anytime anybody posts anything by your test above they are fair game for attack.
Or, you know, you could just grow up a little, and not take it so seriously. If you're going to catch the vapors when something you post for public review is scrutinized, maybe evaluate for yourself if you should post at all. It's like this is your first day on the internet or something.
Maybe, someone who is intimately involved with the car could take a few photos of the areas in the disputed photos, to show how it really is an illusion caused by flash or subterfuge by a random stranger. That'd certainly be easier than trying to admonish the community for believing what they're seeing.
what a confusing thread .. one thing i can tell you as the owner of a body shop and detail shop and am very picky about my cars is that if those were not pictures of my car i could of told you that in 10 seconds .. and im sure biztech , chazman , scott etc .. would of known if that was there car or not also .. there would of been no debating it at all , talking about clay bar dust and all that other crap .. something isnt right ..
I was thinking the same thing earlier Ray - if it had been my car the first response I would have posted would have been to say..... "those are not pics of my car"
I am trying to understand this but the more we examine it as a group the worse it looks.....it's highly suspect.....to say the least
Fellas don’t blame me for you guys taking the bait hook line and sinker.
I told you digital photos taken were deceptive and designed as a “hit” on the car and my reputation.
Do you guys really think I am a moron who would try to peddle a scam? Buyer is ultra pissed.
The behavior here could be excused if I knew you guys were drunk.
Fortunately Scott is sharper and figured what was going on. I mean really how gullible are you guys? If you zoom into the photo of the tail light you can clearly see the fish eyes from the black paint and plastic incompatibility.
A Blind man could see that was not the tail lens from my car.
But now my friends are known - aren’t they?
life is tough. It is tougher if you are getting suckered.
To do it right you have to tape the car off. Lots of places on the car get taped off.
The end caps on the spoilers had plenty of red residue at the tape off points.
I peeled the tape and did not re clean the top of the lenses.
Lots of build up there.
Any more questions?
no more questions .. i see the red residue from the clear coat car that you clay bar ... thats the dumbest thing i ever heard .. you ever clay bar a clear coat car , theres no color .. and now all of the sudden there not your tail lights .. make up your mind dude .. guess you were blind when the photos were first posted , lol ..
Fellas don’t blame me for you guys taking the bait hook line and sinker.
I told you digital photos taken were deceptive and designed as a “hit” on the car and my reputation.
Do you guys really think I am a moron who would try to peddle a scam? Buyer is ultra pissed.
The behavior here could be excused if I knew you guys were drunk.
Fortunately Scott is sharper and figured what was going on. I mean really how gullible are you guys? If you zoom into the photo of the tail light you can clearly see the fish eyes from the black paint and plastic incompatibility.
A Blind man could see that was not the tail lens from my car.
But now my friends are known - aren’t they?
life is tough. It is tougher if you are getting suckered.
So... If the photos are of a different car, and the car actually doesn't have the flaws in the photos, why are you getting so defensive? Why is the owner getting upset about photos instead of just looking at the car and seeing if the flaws are really there? Why not just take some better photos of those areas that show how it really is, and post them?
Did anyone say you're a "moron" or "scammer"? I haven't noticed that, I've only seen one person calling everyone "trolls", "suckers" and "drunks".
Ok guys, I was at the auction and I saw Phil’s car in person. I thought the car looked absolutely stunning. I have two pics of the car I took at the auction that were taken after the car was sold but they are not of the rear of the car or taillights. Don’t think they will help with anything. But Phil’s car really was a beautiful car and way nicer then the 90 1LE. I am checking out on this one.
So... If the photos are of a different car, and the car actually doesn't have the flaws in the photos, why are you getting so defensive? Why is the owner getting upset about photos instead of just looking at the car and seeing if the flaws are really there? Why not just take some better photos of those areas that show how it really is, and post them?
Did anyone say you're a "moron" or "scammer"? I haven't noticed that, I've only seen one person calling everyone "trolls", "suckers" and "drunks".
the sad part is he got suckered into thinking they were his own tail lights at first and now he is telling us we got suckered .. whos drunk now ..
I just think it's sad that people can't be objective, and have to jump to taking things personally, and emotionally lashing out at virtually everyone who happens to be following the thread.
01-17-2019, 06:13 PM
.....come on man............I think a lot of folks here are disappointed and trying to understand what happened.
Congrats to the buyer, and the seller. 
If you're going to catch the vapors when something you post for public review is scrutinized, maybe evaluate for yourself if you should post at all. It's like this is your first day on the internet or something. 
This is turning into a TGO soap opera......one that is really hard to follow.....
