QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Huh..... dead silence.

I don't know why but I suddenly feel so..... so, POWERFUL!

BizJetTech

iTrader: (3)

So why didn't you get here about 900 posts ago ???

okfoz

You must have been the icing on the cake. Scott has asked, told or whatever Phil to stop, or be "done here" since post 501... So apparently Phil finally listened... and look what happened... Crickets.

steves

Holy cow! I haven't been paying attention since Saturday morning. I am not reading through all this stuff. I don't see any new pictures. Has anyone gotten served their papers?

detltu

iTrader: (1)

Sorry guys, I'm changing sides. I'm team Phil!

Request for the Barret Jackson lawyers reviewing this thread with a fine toothed comb right now:

Drew says 1LE's are overhyped and benefit from myths that drives the prices up. It hurts my feelings. Can you make him stop? Thanks.

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

Can you even sue an online profile/avatar?
The People vs. Manic Z
Makes no sense to me.

Regardless, a very sad and yet hilarious thread....

BizJetTech

iTrader: (3)

chazman

iTrader: (4)

It's just too bad we couldn't have spent time in this thread checking out and documenting a low mile IROC in detailed picture, rather than the insanity it turned into.

okfoz

Amen... It would have been way more straight forward to actually get good pictures of the spots in question if the pictures were not of the car...

KMK454

The car is a beautiful thirdgen, but I personally disagree with the "still worth every penny" assessment if the car had paintwork. The whole point of buying a 30 year old survivor with 344 miles is to relive that "new car" experience. This isn't one you buy to roadtrip across America or autocross. This is the car you park in your garage as a full size diecast. It's one you look at and admire as it brings your mind back to 1989, fooling you into thinking your garage is actually a dealer's showroom floor with a brand new IROC on display as "the heartbeat of America" plays softly in the back of your head. The entire value proposition of the car is tied to its originality and condition. The car better be immaculate.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I agree. What I wish this thread became one with dozens of reference pictures of a low mileage IROC, discussions of it's history and the story of it's original owner, that sort of thing.

BizJetTech

iTrader: (3)

Agreed.....but you gotta admit, it's nice this has thread has finally died down....

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, I'm glad the insanity has ended here. But I'm disappointed in the lost opportunity to see and learn more about a super low mile 3rd gen.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I hesitate to even respond to this, because I too am glad this crap parade is over, but I felt it important to point this out.

This thread became about the OP, not the car. The fact that activity fell completely off after he stopped posting is a testament to that.

My final point to you Charlie, is that at this point I don't really trust or have any faith in what the car was or wasn't. I don't think this community is missing anything by not being able to enjoy this car, because there is strong evidence that nothing is what it seemed. Strange behavior and incriminating pictures just turned me off completely.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Yeah Jeremy, it was never about the car. It was mostly about the money. As a consequence, the car will probably go dark for years now, instead of being shared with the community.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

BizJetTech

iTrader: (3)

We all have differing opinions on this topic. Respectfully, I highly disagree.
IMO, paint work on a car of this pedigree and price point makes a HUGE difference.....I agree with Kurt

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

BizJetTech

iTrader: (3)

IMO, at this point (if the pics in question are indeed accurate) everything is questionable, including the mileage

dagwood

iTrader: (5)

I agree to an extent......I mean, I think it'd hurt it some, but i dont think it would kill it by any means. I think the car in the thread sold very well. Would I expect a PERFECT 344 mile car to bring more than $34k? If they were side by side .....of course. But some collector will always be willing to fork out big money for a super low mile car, regardless, I think. Especially since there are some people that wouldn't even notice stuff like the previous pictures.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Carfax shows the seatbelt recall in 1990 and the OP buying it last fall. Nothing else.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

i agree with you .. ive been buying irocs, trans ams , mustangs and grand nationals for the last 25 years and i have no interest in a repaint on a low mile car .. i wont even look at it and i own a bodyshop .. to many nice ones that have original paint and are in excellent condition ..

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I do.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

sorry but a 10k mile all original grand national in excellent condition will bring more than a 10k mile gn that has been repainted .. as with any car , a all original car in excellent condition will always bring more money than a repaint ..

BizJetTech

iTrader: (3)

That's for sure !!!

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

dagwood

iTrader: (5)

GN's were painted with lacquer paint, and are known for getting "crows feet" cracks in the paint....so those get some leniency in the paint department. I've had two 87 GN's....and both had a few problem spots with that. I think that's why GN's tend to bring as much whether they've had paint work or not. 9 times out of 10, if they havent had it, they need it.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Yep. Have saw that myself. I don't think a nice repaint really hurts the value too much on such a low production and super popular car. Ofcourse a super low mileage one with paint untouched will bring a premium. But its not a deal breaker.

BizJetTech

iTrader: (3)

It's a HUGE deal breaker for the private collectors that I know.....these guys own multi-million $$$ collections and wont even look at a car of this pedigree that has been re-painted

detltu

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure there are plenty of high payers that wouldn't want a car that has had some paint work done. To not even look at it because of a few potential touch up spots seems pretty extreme. There are people out there that care more that it looks pristine than that it might have had some paint touch up to keep it looking good. Driving off the original paint only people will certainly affect the price, but how much might be within the noise range on a car like this.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I don't think that a quality repaint would necessarily hurt the value of a thirdgen. Lots of thirdgens had crappy paint from the factory. What'd bug me is a repaint done so poorly it looks like the local Maaco did the masking.

Kind of a moot point anyway since BJ auctions are all about foolish people separating themselves from their cash. It's like participating in an Ebay bidding war over the dumbest thing you can imagine, while the whole process is being broadcast on television. Only an idiot would buy a car there.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Actually, checking it more carefully, looks like car was bought 10/29/18 and sold again 11/05/18. Now that's odd.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

True. More careful work would not have been that apparent and therefore would have had no effect on value.

LeonardS

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I was thinking that. Two different cities.

steves

I am sure my opinion means less than nothing but, I don't understand why there is such an investigation in this car. You aren't going to buy it. It's not a rare Porsche or Ferrari and the sale price is in the millions where the provenance/ history actually mean something to it's value. Most of you guys shredded this thing because it most likely had some poor touch ups done at the dealership back when it was new and the pictures taken were zoomed so far in you can see the flake on the "high quality" 80's paint job.

KMK454

chazman

iTrader: (4)

My opinion only, but flawed original paint and magnificently repainted are about equal value. It's when someone is not happy with factory paint and cheaps out on the repaint when value plummets.

KMK454

There are cars where repainting is less detrimental and, at a certain point, maybe even a positive.

A 344 mile car better be 100% original with perfect paint. A 10k mile car better be 100% original with perfect paint. A 20k car better be original with only minor, disclosed touch-ups on otherwise great paint. On a 30k-75k car, don't be surprised if the ground effects have been repainted or some chips touched up in the quarters and hood, but the car should still look like a good factory example. 75k+ on a 30 year old car is entering the territory where a repaint, if done correctly, can be a positive, because even well-cared for original paint may start to break down. If I were buying a 100k+ car that had a professionally done repaint, I'd view it as a positive.

Note the important caveats: if done correctly and disclosed.

The problem with paintwork is it is rarely done correctly because it is expensive, time consuming, and requires finding a talented, dedicated painter. Poor prep work, failure to properly disassemble or mask the car for paint, and selection of odd or non-factory colors can throw it all away. And then, even if it's done right, the car still has to be put back together straight... at which point the fresh paint will make all the old rubber and trim look terrible, so you better have your tail lights and seals replaced and your wheel wells cleaned up and those factory stickers reprinted in the door sills and... etc. etc.

And regardless of how the paintwork is done, it's not always properly documented or disclosed, leaving the buyer to figure out what happened. Nothing can sour a deal quicker than giving the impression that the seller is hiding something, intentional or not.

Also, should values rise to where good thirdgens consistently trade in the $30k range, a quality repaint will easily eat up a third of that value, meaning paintwork can turn a profitable sale into a loss.

This is why paint is such a big deal. We accept excellent factory paint, GM flaws and all - that's the way these cars were new! But repainting opens the door to all sorts of nit-picking and nickel and diming. And it's a tough crowd out there - even if you repaint it perfectly, some guy will pass on the car as "over-restored."

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

If I had a ton of money and had bought this car, I would drive the crap out of it, with the windows down, yelling "It's 2019 and I just bought a brand new IROC!!!"
Hahahaha

chazman

iTrader: (4)

These words are golden!

I have been lucky in that I've done pretty well on the last few cars I've sold. I disclose EVERYTHING! I am upfront on any problems or paintwork I discovered or am aware of. I get ALL of that out of the way at the start of the conversation and let the buyer decide. In the end, the honesty pays off.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Mostly because someone came here and posted a hype thread, and it was shocking that a forum regular could misrepresent a car, assuming the facebook close ups were accurate.

We're picky around here. If you present something to the forum to be scrutinized, you better be prepared for any little thing to be picked out and commented upon. How the OP reacted to the scrutiny made it a contentious topic.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I still would enjoy seeing it do a burnout!

steves

I can understand scrutinizing the poor quality touch-ups. I have owned almost 70 cars since 89 and I have sold hundreds of cars. I never sold a car and a person said: "that defect in the paint is perfect leave it alone it wont be original anymore." I have had defects repaired. Why does this matter if it was done pre-delivery? I can see why Phil is angry. I am not giving him an excuse because he chose to behave poorly and did nothing to prove his innocence but make ignorant threats. Let's be fair now, this issue should have been dead when Phil stopped responding. That's not happening here. Now it's about finding out the car has been flipped, (seriously you have time to run carfaxes??) it's been to the dealer for that etc. What is this accomplishing? If anything I would say it's devaluing the car and if the "record-breaking" car gets devalued what does that mean for everyone else's car? Seeing the "look whats on Ebay today" and "this guy is nuts what he is asking" discussions I see it hurts everyone in the long run. I do own a car that is not original but it is also somewhat rare. I am going out of my way to keep my car looking as close to original as possible and trying to bring the performance level up to where I can pull up next to a Toyota Camry and feel confident that I will smoke it. Am I wasting my time? Because if I go by some of the comments that I read about this great example and some other cars I am. I am still in the process of rescuing the turd that probably should have been parted out and the only thing that saved it was the "B4C" on the SPID. Boy do I feel stupid for wasting time, energy, and money after reading some of the comments on here.

JT

iTrader: (1)

Has that been determined as fact?

So why are you contributing to what you believe is an issue by replying yourself?!

The plan and simple fact is this is a discussion forum. Current (then) owner of the car created this topic to announce a car. Current (then) owner announces he is listing the car on BJ and asked for feedback. In other words, the original poster of this thread created attention and received it.

Some who aren't familiar with this History/Originality section may not know that this section has a long history of helping to correct seller's misrepresentations of a car listed for sale online as well as correcting misinformation. This car of Phil's is just one of many examples where this community's experts come together to help educate a buyer, seller, or the public.