88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Just bought myself a 6-speed Vette but this pertains to the history and originality of any classic car in MA or any other state that pulls this BS

First.. this car had a clean as a whistle Carfax and owned by the same guy since 1994 when it had 5000 miles.. Only has 34k now..

So the previous owner checked the wrong box on the title when they filled it out..

They entered the mileage where it says and says it is the “actual mileage to the best of my knowledge”

Underneath there are two boxes
-This mileage is accurate within excess of the mechanical limits
and
-This mileage is not accurate and does not reflect the actual mileage

So because he checked that first box they have to put the mileage as 99,999. Said it’s a legal document and the only way to correct it is to submit a correction form with a written explanation with the new title once it comes.. and a $25 fee

So even though he put the mileage where it says it is the ACTUAL mileage because he checked that confusing box the car has a blemish now

Also..

I got a great deal on the car... $3k-$4k below book value..

She looked up the car on NADA and grilled me on my purchase price and charged me $300 more in sales tax based on a HIGH book value.. I explained that KBB is actually much lower and closer to the market because there are a lot of these cars in good shape and they don’t sell.. she didn’t care..

So be aware car hunters and stay vigilant!

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

That's a crock. I would leave that $hitty state. They pull no such nonsense here in OR. Odometer disclosure isn't required on cars older than 10 years. And we have no sales tax.

GD

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Sounds like Illinois BS.

SirReveller

iTrader: (4)

I’m not sure about TGO forum rules but I for one am gonna needs some deets and pics on that vette..

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Well, I did a photo shoot with the IROC... so..

It’s a 1993 40th anniversary 6-speed.. Same owner for 25 years and only 34k.. underneath including exhaust looks brand new.. said it only got wet twice.. Stayed in a garage with a cover when not in use.. Paint looks great!

We hit it off and I told him he can come drive it to a cruise night and I’ll take the IROC.. He’s in his 70s and can’t get in anymore.. He came down quite a bit on price because he didn’t want it to end up at a dealer or getting flipped..

Its a blast to drive..

Great compliment to the IROC..

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Felt like I got screwed and then robbed... and now I have to jump through more nonsense hoops and pay more money..

Can’t wait to see what the “excise” tax is...

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

That’s too bad.. when I got my insurance from Hagerty and the agent heard I was in Mass she sighed and explained how in other states the insurance goes through electronically but for Mass it’s different.. Just glad I have plates now..

SirReveller

iTrader: (4)

Very nice- looks mint! The sawblades, the ZF, the LT- rockin! Exactly what I’d love to get- a perfect compliment to a 700r4 IROC indeed. (With kiddies I keep an eye on 93/94 specifically for the no PS airbag.) I also believe the 93 got a bump in hp over the 92...
https://www.corvsport.com/1993-c4-corvette/

Annnnyway- how ‘bout those thirdgens?

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Feels quick and pulls hard in every gear.. 305hp I believe.. I know where there’s another one near me identical.. 40k miles 6-speed.. I didn’t go with that one because it had an accident in 1995 “vehicle hit stationary object”. No structural damage reported, but more owners too.. Guy was willing to make a good deal way below book but I went with the cleaner record and same owner for 25 years..

Its pretty mint.. a few paint chips, scuffed leather on the driver seat, but paint looks amazing and wheels look brand new.. The guy would put a soft blanket under the cover because he thought the dust cover felt too rough.. It needs a new blower motor relay module and driver door ajar sensor but other than that it’s solid!

Thirdgen relevancy: I think the IROC turns more heads because the vette still looks newish and people see them a lot still..

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Ironically, in Jersey, when I registered my 69 Suburban I checked both of those boxes, not actual miles and exceeded limits and they didn't put either on my title

Big&BadGTA

iTrader: (1)

I could NEVER live there, regardless.


But in this case, two issues, both independent of one another.

Issue #1. Seller made a mistake. Should have been corrected, but now can be corrected after the fact. Be glad that's possible.

Issue #2. Sales Tax. Massachusetts never met a tax it didn't like. You should have been able to show a bill of sale and be taxed on your "good deal", not the book value. It's a sales tax, right? Just thinking that's how these are typically collected.

Big&BadGTA

iTrader: (1)

1993 did not get a power bump over 1992. It was 300 hp. LT1 remained at 300 hp, all the way through 1996.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

The sales tax really made me feel violated.. The clerk looked at me like I was lying... It was on the intent to sell form from the seller and they printed it on the title. They were old folks and not about to pull one over on the state..

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I read an article where they said the later LT1 C4s were underrated... but man, I got robbed for tax money, let me have my 5hp... ha ha...

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

They went off NADA BTW which was $14k-$17k

KBB is $7500-$9900

I told her that but she said they go off NADA

scottmoyer

If it was me, I would've asked for a supervisor and/or grabbed my paperwork and left.

Vehicle registration is based on the price paid. That's why it's called "sale's tax". You shouldn't be taxed on it's value during the sales tax portion. You get taxed on it's real value in an excise circumstance.

I just looked at the Mass law and it says that buying from a dealer is locked at 6.25%, but buying from a private party is the greater of either 6.25% or clean trade in book value. All I can say is WOW!.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I talked to a state cop at cars and coffee and he said he was a registry cop.. Said they will Honor price from a dealer if you get a good deal, but from a private party they basically assume you’re lying.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I love the Vette. If I ever nuy one, it will be a 40th or 50th anniv. car in that color. Always loved it.

Had the same thing happen here in Michigan yeas ago. Chrysler that has been in our family since new, so we know the 38k miles is accurate. But they give me a title that says exceeds mechanical limits....which sucks. I asked about it, but on a digit odo, and a certain number of years, they mark them that way...or so I was told at the time.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

CA, and not doubt some other states like MA, reserve the right to "impute" the tax they deem SHOULD be paid regardless of what was actually paid. I think it started with sell phones that were being given away if you signed up for the service. The state wasn't getting sales tax on the phones so they just taxed what you should have paid. I tried to register a car in CA that I was given so sales price was zero. Their system wouldn't even accept that but at least they accepted only $1. But that was a long time ago.

bull-vette

Congratulations on the Vette. I also have a 93 and they are great cars and vastly underappreciated. I think you purchased it at the bottom or near the bottom of the depreciation curve. Good pick up!
Stinks on the tax thing though. I believe in Missouri they will accept the "good deal" price if you have a bill of sale signed by the seller and notarized. Otherwise they go by NADA also. Maybe that is an option where you live?

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Thanks DynoDave! I’m in love with the color! Wanted either dark red, ruby red or black.. Love the 40th accents

I definitely bought on a deep dip.. these cars are so under appreciated it’s not funny... 26 years old and feels like it has all the bells and whistles of my Tahoe LTZ except for navigation and Bluetooth.. I like that the car unlocks and locks when you walk near and away from it.. A few steps up from the Camaros in terms of fit and finish..

I should have walked out and got a notarized bill of sale but I had no idea how it worked and needed to get the car.. The car was 2 hours away so kind of a pain..

Big&BadGTA

iTrader: (1)

As mentioned, Massachusetts never met a tax it didn't love. Could never live there.

Big&BadGTA

iTrader: (1)

And here's why I'd never buy a vehicle from Taxachusetts:

SirReveller

iTrader: (4)

...a side benefit of this modification resulted in a small, but significant, increase in torque from 330 to 340 lbs/ft of torque at 3,600rpms.

You are correct sir. Been awhile since I browsed the various years.

6.25%? Up here in Big Government nanny state Canada the combined federal/provincial mandatory sales tax (dealer or private sale) is 13%! Don’t even get me started ... puts the difference between a $6K car and a $12k car in a whole new light.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Thanks! Goes good with the IROC for sure..

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

That’s crazy MA charges sales tax even for out of state folks buying a car in MA... doesn’t even make sense because they get you when you. Register the car, not when you buy it.

New Hampshire is sales tax free and when you buy a car in New Hampshire there’s no tax, but you get whacked when you go to get plates in MA..

SirReveller, all my Canadian friends use the term “Nanny State” when talking about Canada.. I mean you guys don’t even have freedom of speech up there! Comedians get fined by human rights councils for offending people.. Crazy. 13% Tax is pure robbery!

I also really really do not want to run a front plate on the Vette.. been getting away with it on the IROC.. could just say I took it off for a show and forgot to put it back on... oops! I use double sided tape for the IROC just for inspection and then pop it off.. They have cameras in the inspection bays now so the inspectors can’t throw you a bone anymore..

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Nice Corvette! -I'm shopping....well....about to be shopping for a c5Z. ....I agree on the undervalued prices, and one can only hope you buy, then they go up! LOL -and they will.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Thanks!

I was looking at C5 Z06 vettes too but they go for double what I paid for a mint low mile C4

You can find a ZR1 C4 with 40k miles for close to the same price as a C5 Z06 with 90k miles

Good luck with the hunt.. hope you find a good deal.. I like the Z06 better than the regular C5... Really cool car with the hard top and 6-speed..

I love the C6 Z06 too but those are IROC prices.. LOL

cougar20th

That about sums up my experience with the Mass DMV almost exactly. Unfortunately in many peoples minds Corvette = expensive. If it had been a cavalier you would have been fine.

Unfortunately they leave it up to the teller to decide if they charge you taxes based on the sale price or if they look up high book. Unfortunately in many peoples minds Corvette = expensive. If it had been a cavalier you would have been fine.

And as you said don't check anything on the title. I've had a seller (someone I knew) get a duplicate/replacement title and because they checked all the boxes and do it all over. DMV never told me about the correction sheet/fee.

There is also a way to avoid the taxes altogether. There is a little known form that states they gifted you the car. It has to be turned into the registery at the same time as the title. But it wont help the odometer issue
https://www.mass.gov/service-details...gift-transfers
https://www.mass.gov/files/documents...9/mvu-24_0.pdf
Read it carefully. Most answers are No. but some are yes.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

If you buy a car that you don't intend to use for a while (more than about a month), say you buy a car and plan a couple of years long restoration on it for example, you MUST do a "Tax & Title" on that car right away when you buy it even if you don't actually register (get plates) on it. Why, you ask? Because after a month of owning it without paying the sales tax, the sales tax goes into a penalty mode , as in, the bastards add interest to the as yet unpaid sales tax and this interest multiplies monthly until you finally get around to tax, title, and registration, and that interest can be staggering if enough time has elapsed!

Now, I know the average car buyer wants to drive their car right away, and does the tax, title, and registration thing the minute they buy it. But us vintage car hobbyists may very well likely buy a car that they plan to restore first before driving it, as a good friend did with a 1960s Corvette without knowing about the sneaky little sales tax "gotcha", and the two years worth of interest on the unpaid sales tax was almost equal to what he paid for the car in the first place!

It's always a good idea to get the title in one's own name ASAP anyway when buying even a project car, to make sure there aren't any "oddities" with the seller's title/ownership of the car, and so doing a "Tax & Title" right away can and will save you boatloads of cash and insure that the car is really, dearly, and clearly yours BEFORE you go spending mad cash restoring it (To the Mass. RMV the car belongs to the titled owner they have on file, which technically ain't you till the tax & title have been done).


Sermon is over , go in peace ....

Big&BadGTA

iTrader: (1)

I just bought a Porsche for my wife and while many were in MA, I would not even entertain those. Ended up buying from a seller in FL and had shipped to my door. Now it could be argued that in MA, I didn't take "title" or possession in MA, so not subject to their laws on taxes, but not worth the challenges.

I did pay the 4% sales tax in my own state once I went to register/title it. But 4% isn't terrible when compared to many states in the nation.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I always wondered how to buy a car if you’re not going to register it right away... I’ve heard you it’s not really legal in Mass to have unregistered cars on a property unless you are a mechanic or dealer... Not sure if that’s true, but wow, this state really sticks it to you..

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Update on this story from 4 years ago. In case any of this can help anybody where the DMV is holding your vehicle history hostage.

the recap: When I bought my Vette (this can pertain to an old Thirdgen) when I went to get the plates the DMV woman looked at the paperwork and said there was a box marked “I attest the odometer is correct winthin excess of mechanical limits”. She said that means the odometer is broken and the car mileage had to be changed to 99,999 or “True Mileage Unknown”. The line through the box was a different color ink and very faint I said it doesn’t look like a check mark to me and it’s a different color, I could rub it off. She said that would be against the law to change a legal document.

Two things transpired afterwards:

-I said you can’t charge me tax on the higher NADA value for a mint car and destroy the vehicle history based on an incorrect ink mark. Which she replied I could send in a form with a fee and a notarized signature to fix it. The previous owner would also have to sign.

-During the pandemic I wrote an email to the DMV saying how my business was shut down and there was a potential error on paperwork affecting the value of an appreciating asset I may have to sell. I sent copies of the Carfax showing all the inspection mileage adding up, the signed purchase and sale from the original owner, and the copy of the title signed by the original owner with no mark on that box. They never replied.

I had copies of everything because I decided not to pay cash for the car. I did a 1.9% loan through my credit union instead with 50% down. It was easy to do and the payments were very low. I always use cheap financing for everything and hold on to cash. Unfortunately that meant I wouldn’t know what the title would say until I paid it off.

I checked the Carfax during the pandemic and it looked fine. The first owner got it in 1994 with a few thousand miles. He had said it was a great deal but they sold it as a new car with warranty and everything. Assuming it was a dealer demo before that… No info on the first few thousand miles but after that all the mileage added up perfect with no issues. Looked promising!

I finally paid it off last week and got the title. It had the correct mileage and read “ACTUAL MILES”. Someone at the DMV took care of this and I’m super grateful!

persistence can beat the bureaucracy but be careful on all that paperwork for these old cars!

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

That has NOT been my experience here in Michigan, but I'm glad it worked out for you!

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I have a feeling either that lady decided not to screw me (I didn’t get angry at her but made it clear this error was at great concern to me!) or the fact that a clerical error would negatively affect someone getting hosed by the pandemic got it taken care of.

Based on my run-ins with the DMV in the past I did not expect this to work out. Even with the notarized correction…

I guess you always have to give it a shot and hope it finds a good person.