Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
06-10-2010, 02:00 PM
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Car: 1991 Z28 convertible built 3/1/1990
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Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
I'm using an adjustable master cylinder from Monster which is apparently just a stock piece with an adjustable rod on it. I have it adjusted as far out as it will go, in fact there is still about 2 or 3 threads on the rod that I could kick it out further but the clutch pedal itself will not go back that far.
The symptoms I am having are:
-Reverse is extremely hard to get into. I have found that the only way to get into reverse without giving myself a sore shoulder is to turn the car off, then turn the key to the "on" position and stick it in reverse, then starting the car again.
-Shifting at WOT is about impossible. Anything over 5,000rpm and it takes a lot more force than it should to not only get OUT of gear, but back INTO the next gear.
-Even sitting at a stop light at idle, 1st gear can sometimes need some convincing to get into.
-For some reason, 4th is the one gear that grinds more than any of the others.
*This all is happening because the clutch isn't disengaging all the way. For example, if I'm on a flat surface, and I have it in 1st gear but have the clutch pedal pushed all the way to the floor, it will still roll forward every so slightly. Same with Reverse. The clutch starts grabbing pretty hard about 1" off the floor, which is rediculously hard to drive with it that way.*
Now, with that being said, and considering I cannot extend the rod on the master cylinder any more because the pedal itself is all the way extended, do you think a Tick Performance master cylinder is going to remedy the problem? I have heard a lot of people having problems with stock/cheap aftermarket pieces, and everyone seems to rave about how awesome Tick is. But for my particular problems with it not disengaging all the way, what do you guys think I need to do?
Example, in this video the car is on an even parking lot, totally flat surface. I had it in 1st gear with the clutch pedal depressed and it was rolling. You may even hear me say that I have the clutch in and that's how bad the master cylinder is:
The symptoms I am having are:
-Reverse is extremely hard to get into. I have found that the only way to get into reverse without giving myself a sore shoulder is to turn the car off, then turn the key to the "on" position and stick it in reverse, then starting the car again.
-Shifting at WOT is about impossible. Anything over 5,000rpm and it takes a lot more force than it should to not only get OUT of gear, but back INTO the next gear.
-Even sitting at a stop light at idle, 1st gear can sometimes need some convincing to get into.
-For some reason, 4th is the one gear that grinds more than any of the others.
*This all is happening because the clutch isn't disengaging all the way. For example, if I'm on a flat surface, and I have it in 1st gear but have the clutch pedal pushed all the way to the floor, it will still roll forward every so slightly. Same with Reverse. The clutch starts grabbing pretty hard about 1" off the floor, which is rediculously hard to drive with it that way.*
Now, with that being said, and considering I cannot extend the rod on the master cylinder any more because the pedal itself is all the way extended, do you think a Tick Performance master cylinder is going to remedy the problem? I have heard a lot of people having problems with stock/cheap aftermarket pieces, and everyone seems to rave about how awesome Tick is. But for my particular problems with it not disengaging all the way, what do you guys think I need to do?
Example, in this video the car is on an even parking lot, totally flat surface. I had it in 1st gear with the clutch pedal depressed and it was rolling. You may even hear me say that I have the clutch in and that's how bad the master cylinder is:
06-10-2010, 03:34 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
i am trying to remember if monster clutches were ones that sometimes needed shims behind the slave to get the clearances right on the pressure plate. there was a stick over on tech in the manual trans section, about the shim deal. good news is a shim is a lot cheaper than a tick. bad news is the tranny has to come out. look around here and see if theres anyone with the same issue. seems like the clutch not disengaging was discussed in there somewhere. having said that, everything i've read on the tick is that it moves more fluid, which to me translates to less throw for the same fluid moved. that sounds like it would give you back enough room on the pedal to get dialed in. probably.
06-10-2010, 07:09 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
It has a Spec 4. The master cylinder is a Monster. Would not having that shim make the problem become progressively worse? It seems as though it is getting worse. The tranny, clutch, and flywheel came off another car and were used, not sure if the old owner was using a shim or not, I know I didn't add one because I had never even heard of this until just now.
06-10-2010, 07:11 PM
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Car: 1991 Z28 convertible built 3/1/1990
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
Also, it isn't slipping or doing anything like that. It's just simply not disengaging properly...so i'm not sure if that thread on tech is referring to the symptoms I'm having??
06-10-2010, 08:45 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
I have the Tick Performance master cyl and it works perfect with my LS7 clutch kit. I can adjust it to almost any release point I want. It's a little pricey but money well spent IMO. It should work fine with an aftermarket clutch. I think that's what they developed it for. While your at it , get one of there remote bleeder lines. That's THE best money I've ever spent. It makes a crap job effortless. Hope this helps , Dean.
06-10-2010, 08:47 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
I am pretty sure you've tried this already but have you bled the clutch? I had this same problem on my DD (2004 Grand Am) and I bled the clutch, problem persisted, bled it again, problem went away then came back almost immediately. I finally flushed the whole system and ran all new fresh brake fluid through it and it has been working great ever since. This was about a year and a half ago.
Mine also got progressively worse, to the point where I had to either shut the car off at stop signs, or it would stall out. That was fun because to get home I had to start it in first gear, using the starter to get the car rolling and then cruise away. (NSS was fooled because I had the clutch depressed but it actually was still engaged hehe)
Mine also got progressively worse, to the point where I had to either shut the car off at stop signs, or it would stall out. That was fun because to get home I had to start it in first gear, using the starter to get the car rolling and then cruise away. (NSS was fooled because I had the clutch depressed but it actually was still engaged hehe)
06-10-2010, 08:53 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
I read your first post again. Your problem could be just as simple as a system that is not thoroughly bled. Are you sure you have gotten all of the air out of the system? Air can cause all sorts of problems. Dean.
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06-10-2010, 08:58 PM
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Car: 1988 Camaro, 1986 S10, 2000 Harley
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
I am pretty sure you've tried this already but have you bled the clutch? I had this same problem on my DD (2004 Grand Am) and I bled the clutch, problem persisted, bled it again, problem went away then came back almost immediately. I finally flushed the whole system and ran all new fresh brake fluid through it and it has been working great ever since. This was about a year and a half ago.
Mine also got progressively worse, to the point where I had to either shut the car off at stop signs, or it would stall out. That was fun because to get home I had to start it in first gear, using the starter to get the car rolling and then cruise away. (NSS was fooled because I had the clutch depressed but it actually was still engaged hehe)
Mine also got progressively worse, to the point where I had to either shut the car off at stop signs, or it would stall out. That was fun because to get home I had to start it in first gear, using the starter to get the car rolling and then cruise away. (NSS was fooled because I had the clutch depressed but it actually was still engaged hehe)
06-10-2010, 09:11 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
Yeah I forgot to mention too, I had the same problem with getting into gears as well. I would definately bleed it completely, and ruthlessly, even if you don't see air coming out lol. I experimented with different bleeding methods too, but forget which one actually worked lol. You don't need to pump the pedal like with brakes. Just push it in and hold, release the bleeder, retighten it, then release the pedal and repeat. (with a helper of course)
How does your pedal feel? Mine got softer and softer until it became non existant.
See:
http://www.v8archie.com/arch4.htm
How does your pedal feel? Mine got softer and softer until it became non existant.
See:
http://www.v8archie.com/arch4.htm
Theory:
Why do I insist that you REMOVE the bleed screw when pushing the plunger in on the slave cylinder? This is simple hydraulics. Fluid or air will always go the direction of least resistance. When you are pushing the rod into the slave cylinder you will find that it is impossible to push it in at a slowly and steadily pace. If you push it in too fast with the bleed screw still in and just unscrewed a few turns some of the brake fluid and/or air in the slave cylinder will go back up the hydraulic line that you just bled, thus necessating your starting over.
When bleeding your clutch....The biggest mistake or miss-conception a person can make is to pump the pedal.
The clutch Hyd. system, unlike the brake Hyd. system SHOULD NOT BE PUMPED. The only thing that happens when you "pump" the clutch is that you make any large air bubbles in the hydraulic system into a bunch of small air bubbles. BTW these small air bubbles are harder to bleed out than larger bubbles.
You cannot "pump up" a clutch. If you have to "pump up" the clutch to make a shift then you have a leak and you can bleed the system a dozen times to no avail.
On the clutch, think about it now, if you could "pump-up" the clutch wouldn't the T.O. Bearing tend to invert the clutch diaphragm and travel toward the engine until it met up with something solid like the flywheel. On a braking system, when you "pump-up" the brakes you force the brake pads into the rotor until the line pressure builds up enough that the resistance you feel when pumping the pedal increases. Further, as you press harder and harder on the brake pedal the pads just increase their pressure on the rotors.
GM Thought this through when they designed the system. To avoid "pumping up" the clutch hyd. system, GM put in a small bleed back hole in the master cylinder. (BTW not an original idea, all Hyd. clutches have it) This bleed back hole relieves line pressure every time the pedal is at the top of the stroke. Didn't you notice when you "pumped up" the clutch pedal that it doesn’t firm-up like the brake pedal does?
The only thing you accomplish when "pumping up" the clutch pedal is to take any air bubbles that are in the system and atomize them into smaller air bubbles, thus making the problem worse. Remember when you were at the soda shop, as a kid, and your parents kept giving you hell about playing with you soda and straw? Same theory here! The more you move that soda through the straw the smaller the air bubbles become.
Why do I insist that you REMOVE the bleed screw when pushing the plunger in on the slave cylinder? This is simple hydraulics. Fluid or air will always go the direction of least resistance. When you are pushing the rod into the slave cylinder you will find that it is impossible to push it in at a slowly and steadily pace. If you push it in too fast with the bleed screw still in and just unscrewed a few turns some of the brake fluid and/or air in the slave cylinder will go back up the hydraulic line that you just bled, thus necessating your starting over.
When bleeding your clutch....The biggest mistake or miss-conception a person can make is to pump the pedal.
The clutch Hyd. system, unlike the brake Hyd. system SHOULD NOT BE PUMPED. The only thing that happens when you "pump" the clutch is that you make any large air bubbles in the hydraulic system into a bunch of small air bubbles. BTW these small air bubbles are harder to bleed out than larger bubbles.
You cannot "pump up" a clutch. If you have to "pump up" the clutch to make a shift then you have a leak and you can bleed the system a dozen times to no avail.
On the clutch, think about it now, if you could "pump-up" the clutch wouldn't the T.O. Bearing tend to invert the clutch diaphragm and travel toward the engine until it met up with something solid like the flywheel. On a braking system, when you "pump-up" the brakes you force the brake pads into the rotor until the line pressure builds up enough that the resistance you feel when pumping the pedal increases. Further, as you press harder and harder on the brake pedal the pads just increase their pressure on the rotors.
GM Thought this through when they designed the system. To avoid "pumping up" the clutch hyd. system, GM put in a small bleed back hole in the master cylinder. (BTW not an original idea, all Hyd. clutches have it) This bleed back hole relieves line pressure every time the pedal is at the top of the stroke. Didn't you notice when you "pumped up" the clutch pedal that it doesn’t firm-up like the brake pedal does?
The only thing you accomplish when "pumping up" the clutch pedal is to take any air bubbles that are in the system and atomize them into smaller air bubbles, thus making the problem worse. Remember when you were at the soda shop, as a kid, and your parents kept giving you hell about playing with you soda and straw? Same theory here! The more you move that soda through the straw the smaller the air bubbles become.
Last edited by Shift06; 06-10-2010 at 09:15 PM.
06-10-2010, 09:17 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
im havin an issue with my mn12 set up as well. after 3k i cant shift into 2nd and 3rd smoothly. i have a stock gm mc unit that ive been runing since day one. (updated hydraulics) and a ls7 clutch kit. all of these were new on the car since 08.
people are telling me to do the drill mod on the hose. i feel like , can that little thing fix my problem. i know its not my tranny. im not sure if i should purchase and adj ram master cylinder and idk about my slave cylinder.
my clutch bites, its doesnt slip and my tranny doesnt whine or clunk
seems like i have a little rear main seal leak but idk
im driving the car normally shifting at less than 3000
i rebleed the system new oil on the tranny. maybe my master cylinder took a dump?
a good start
people are telling me to do the drill mod on the hose. i feel like , can that little thing fix my problem. i know its not my tranny. im not sure if i should purchase and adj ram master cylinder and idk about my slave cylinder.
my clutch bites, its doesnt slip and my tranny doesnt whine or clunk
seems like i have a little rear main seal leak but idk
im driving the car normally shifting at less than 3000
i rebleed the system new oil on the tranny. maybe my master cylinder took a dump?
a good start
Last edited by TPI TERR; 06-10-2010 at 09:22 PM.
06-10-2010, 09:50 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
im havin an issue with my mn12 set up as well. after 3k i cant shift into 2nd and 3rd smoothly. i have a stock gm mc unit that ive been runing since day one. (updated hydraulics) and a ls7 clutch kit. all of these were new on the car since 08.
people are telling me to do the drill mod on the hose. i feel like , can that little thing fix my problem. i know its not my tranny. im not sure if i should purchase and adj ram master cylinder and idk about my slave cylinder.
my clutch bites, its doesnt slip and my tranny doesnt whine or clunk
seems like i have a little rear main seal leak but idk
im driving the car normally shifting at less than 3000
i rebleed the system new oil on the tranny. maybe my master cylinder took a dump?
a good start
people are telling me to do the drill mod on the hose. i feel like , can that little thing fix my problem. i know its not my tranny. im not sure if i should purchase and adj ram master cylinder and idk about my slave cylinder.
my clutch bites, its doesnt slip and my tranny doesnt whine or clunk
seems like i have a little rear main seal leak but idk
im driving the car normally shifting at less than 3000
i rebleed the system new oil on the tranny. maybe my master cylinder took a dump?
a good start
06-10-2010, 11:17 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
Regarding the question about how my pedal feels, it varies. Sometimes it is firm, then if I get out of the car for a few minutes and come back, it might feel very weak. However, it never feels as firm as I remember it the first couple times I drove it back in december. And I never has these shifting issues back then either. I bled the fluid tonight and it helped for about 2 minutes. And yes I have the remote bleeder.
06-10-2010, 11:19 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
Oh and furthermore, another symptom is that I can push in the pedal a good 3" before there is any sort of hydrolic pressure...
06-11-2010, 02:22 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
Keep on bleeding lol. I bled mine like 4 or 5 times, it would have pressure, then go away after 2 minutes too.
06-11-2010, 02:32 PM
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Re: Clutch issues with Monster master cyl, will Tick fix it?
The air is probably in the master due to the angle it sits at. What I did to bleed mine out is to take a hose coming out of the master and put the other end in the resivoir just like bench bleeding a master. I am using AN line and had an extra fitting for the master laying around so this was easy for me to do.
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