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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
Can you please post some more pictures, or at least describe more what you had to do to get the truck pedal to fit?
I'm doing a similar swap (2004 4.8), and I'm wondering how I'm going to get the pedal to fit in the cab, and still feel right when I drive.
Here are a few pics. I had to cut a lot of length off of the truck pedal and do some trial & error in bending the pedal to get everything to look right. To mount to the firewall, I used one existing stud for the upper hole and drilled a new lower hole. I had to use spacers to push the pedal assembly out enough to allow full travel of the pedal from idle to WOT.
factory driveshaft with holley's motor mounts and crossmember with 4l80e. length will most definitely need to be added. this picture is with the car jacked by the rear end and on stands in the front.
what size will work within the exhaust and torque arm constraints??
If you are using the Hooker Blackheart exhaust system, it will accommodate a shaft without issues. You’ll need to confirm what clearance you have with the torque arm.
Sounds good. What cam specs did you end up going with?
custom comp grind
223/242, .631/.614, 112lsa+2 degrees advance. quite unconventional numbers but I was assured that this cam will do what I asked (mid range torque and decent street manners). It should be on the dyno in a week or two. Will post #'s shortly after
custom comp grind
223/242, .631/.614, 112lsa+2 degrees advance. quite unconventional numbers but I was assured that this cam will do what I asked (mid range torque and decent street manners). It should be on the dyno in a week or two. Will post #'s shortly after
That's a pretty wide split for cathedral ports, but it wont hurt you at all. It will also work well if you ever change to square port heads down the road.
That's a pretty wide split for cathedral ports, but it wont hurt you at all. It will also work well if you ever change to square port heads down the road.
thats right In line with what the cam guy told me. Only thing that somewhat concerns me is the higher lift. I do have .660 Manley springs, morel drop in lifters,BTR trunnions, BTR pushrods, but still on the factory rocker. From what I understand. .63x is about as high as you want to go on the factory rocker arm. (Or around 400 # open pressure)
thats right In line with what the cam guy told me. Only thing that somewhat concerns me is the higher lift. I do have .660 Manley springs, morel drop in lifters,BTR trunnions, BTR pushrods, but still on the factory rocker. From what I understand. .63x is about as high as you want to go on the factory rocker arm. (Or around 400 # open pressure)
.630 is a little too much on the stock rockers. They are going side load the valve as they scrub over the tip and prematurely wear them. However, if you still have the powdered metal valve guides in the heads that will reduce the wear. If they are bronze guides, you'll be wearing through them in no time.
yeah I'm not sure what material valve guide these heads have, I will have to ask the machine shop that did them. If they are bronze, how many miles would you expect to get out of them before significant wear? Just trying to understand how close of an eye I will need to keep on these heads over time.
yeah I'm not sure what material valve guide these heads have, I will have to ask the machine shop that did them. If they are bronze, how many miles would you expect to get out of them before significant wear? Just trying to understand how close of an eye I will need to keep on these heads over time.
If they are GM heads and you did a basic rebuild they likely kept the OEM metal guides. Bronze Is an upgrade and would be itemized on the statement of work. There isn't a set mileage for wear as many things like lobe shape and ramp rate can increase or decrease wear. However, a few thousand miles is all it can take before the valve wobbles in the guide and let's go.
If they are GM heads and you did a basic rebuild they likely kept the OEM metal guides. Bronze Is an upgrade and would be itemized on the statement of work. There isn't a set mileage for wear as many things like lobe shape and ramp rate can increase or decrease wear. However, a few thousand miles is all it can take before the valve wobbles in the guide and let's go.
gotcha, thanks! it was a basic rebuild with new springs on GM 243 heads, so most likely OEM guides. I will definitely keep an eye on the top end.
When you have the car sitting on the ground you"ll want to verify that the Panhard bar is still pretty close to level. Most of the time when you lower the body side mount to make room for the exhaust tubing the Panhard bar ends up angled. There are axle side brackets that UMI makes to correct this if it is angled.
I think single stage in the Arctic white for an engine bay was a good choice. I went with single stage DuPont Arctic white for the underside of my hood and was actually impressed with how it turned out.
Good call on the panhard geometry, mine is way off due to the drop kit installed. Just put a bracket from UMI on order to correct the angle.
the cam lift kills the entire idea of it ever being a reliable daily driver
not that you plan to put 15k/year on it though. I just thought you'd want more than 15k miles before dropping a valve or something stupid to happen.
IMO .550-.575 is where you want to be for a 100k+ miles head. PAC1218 or less 'style' seat pressure springs.
understand the concern, the intake lift is quite high, however there are plenty of guys out there running similar if not higher lifts on very similar setups. No it’s not a 100k mile motor and yes it will require more maintenance and more attention than most but I’m OK with that. Something I’m willing to put up with for a fun weekend car. Will probably see 2-3k miles a year and run it for 2 years before pulling heads too have them checked just to be in the safe side.
understand the concern, the intake lift is quite high, however there are plenty of guys out there running similar if not higher lifts on very similar setups. No it’s not a 100k mile motor and yes it will require more maintenance and more attention than most but I’m OK with that. Something I’m willing to put up with for a fun weekend car. Will probably see 2-3k miles a year and run it for 2 years before pulling heads too have them checked just to be in the safe side.
Different strokes for different folks!
if you love performance maintenance aspects ( I do ) I would have recommend a solid roller.
I also would have eliminated the Overdrive because 'race car'. No sense in using an overdrive transmission if you aren't going to drive the vehicle long distances, or need it to be a reliable daily transportation.
A TH400 has the same strength as 4l80e, is lighter, cheaper, and far more simple.
4l80e is such a monstrosity, if I didn't need to get 15k miles/year I wouldn't have touched it. Remember you can't go WOT in 4th gear with the 4l80e; it is fundamentally the same exact thing as a TH400 with respect to WOT and has no overdrive for WOT.
Q. why do I bother mention this now after its done?
A. I wasn't suggesting take out the 4l80e, far from it. Rather, an observation that some parts statistically seem to match well together (risk vs reward or cost vs effect). Solid cams and forged rods for example, or forged pistons and forged rods. A simpler example is 4l80e and oem bottom end engine (mileage instead of power, where power is anything above what an OEM bottom end can handle i.e. 600-800horsepower, many will not risk a forged rod until that range and beyond). Purpose and risk vs reward are all we have because even with models and math the computers don't always get it right. One thing for certain is history. History says that if the rod is forged, not to worry about the high lift cam because if/when something happens it will probably facilitate replacement of the entire engine. So you may be given an opportunity in the future to decide whether to switch to high mileage configurations (OEM engine) since you already have the 4l80e in place.
if you love performance maintenance aspects ( I do ) I would have recommend a solid roller.
I also would have eliminated the Overdrive because 'race car'. No sense in using an overdrive transmission if you aren't going to drive the vehicle long distances, or need it to be a reliable daily transportation.
A TH400 has the same strength as 4l80e, is lighter, cheaper, and far more simple.
4l80e is such a monstrosity, if I didn't need to get 15k miles/year I wouldn't have touched it. Remember you can't go WOT in 4th gear with the 4l80e; it is fundamentally the same exact thing as a TH400 with respect to WOT and has no overdrive for WOT.
Q. why do I bother mention this now after its done?
A. I wasn't suggesting take out the 4l80e, far from it. Rather, an observation that some parts statistically seem to match well together (risk vs reward or cost vs effect). Solid cams and forged rods for example, or forged pistons and forged rods. A simpler example is 4l80e and oem bottom end engine (mileage instead of power, where power is anything above what an OEM bottom end can handle i.e. 600-800horsepower, many will not risk a forged rod until that range and beyond). Purpose and risk vs reward are all we have because even with models and math the computers don't always get it right. One thing for certain is history. History says that if the rod is forged, not to worry about the high lift cam because if/when something happens it will probably facilitate replacement of the entire engine. So you may be given an opportunity in the future to decide whether to switch to high mileage configurations (OEM engine) since you already have the 4l80e in place.
hah sorey. That is, the parts we choose when building a car are statistically relevant to each other. Many mis match parts without realizing it or doing any analysis (who does that)
A 4l80e is an economy transmission. Its purpose is overdrive, otherwise you would have used a th400, same WOT performance but lighter.
The overdrive is for cruising, not for WOT. The 4l80e won't take WOT in 4th gear they say so you will never be in 4th during WOT if you value the trans.
It was curious when someone will choose a "race car" part (high lift cam, forged rods, etc...) and mix it with "economy transmission/parts", which in this case weighs the car down (+150~lbs) making it slower, and absorbs more power, so you can have an economy cruise (long distance, high mileage) setup. And then say its not going to be high mileage.
Since you have the 4l80e anyways, you could always swap in a next "economy" engine and use the vehicle this way.
I'd never suggest going 'backwards' to the TH400 in any case.
Since OEM engine will support 600-800hp (some 1000hp 6.0L I've seen several) I don't see any issue with that.
tl;dr the 4l80e is amazing but very heavy and intended for long distances, high mileage. That is, we pay a "heavy price" to keep it in the car, for the sole purpose of economy cruise long distances.
hah sorey. That is, the parts we choose when building a car are statistically relevant to each other.
This isn't true in the slightest. I agree that you need to match parts correctly, but i'm not following your logic of naming random parts and how it relates to the OP's goal. FWIW, the 4L80E is like 45 lbs heavier than the T400. Not a huge difference. I don't think I have ever heard of someone digging into a transmission to remove parts for weight. I think he is building a fun car that he will run on the track, not a true "race car" in the dictionary sense.
This isn't true in the slightest. I agree that you need to match parts correctly, but i'm not following your logic of naming random parts and how it relates to the OP's goal. FWIW, the 4L80E is like 45 lbs heavier than the T400. Not a huge difference. I don't think I have ever heard of someone digging into a transmission to remove parts for weight. I think he is building a fun car that he will run on the track, not a true "race car" in the dictionary sense.
Shifty nailed it; this is by no means a race car. It is a weekend car built to have fun and make noise. Also, its 2019; who wouldn't want a fully computer controlled transmission WITH overdrive that can handle a decent amount of power from the factory? Sounds good to me!
FWIW, the 4L80E is like 45 lbs heavier than the T400. Not a huge difference.
Yeah his claim doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, the TH400 is somewhere around 130, 4L80E is around 180, so 50 lbs is not a huge difference, plus it's low and in the middle.
Yeah his claim doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, the TH400 is somewhere around 130, 4L80E is around 180, so 50 lbs is not a huge difference, plus it's low and in the middle.
Actually my 4l80e weighed around 250lbs. Anda th350 would have probably served the purpose here at significantly less weight.
I love the 4l80e and will never go back to THthis or that. Its definitely my last auto and it beats all the rest. But don't underestimate its weight, and power robbing capacity.
Actually my 4l80e weighed around 250lbs. Anda th350 would have probably served the purpose here at significantly less weight.
I love the 4l80e and will never go back to THthis or that. Its definitely my last auto and it beats all the rest. But don't underestimate its weight, and power robbing capacity.
It's still not that far off in weight 400/80 once you add in the torque converters for each transmission and the fluid etc.
It's still not that far off in weight 400/80 once you add in the torque converters for each transmission and the fluid etc.
Yeah man, I love 4l80e, I've written pages and pages about how great it is. Truly the ideal transmission for the budget minded enthusiast.
But its a freakin monster. I tell people in line at grocery stores about it because even when I can't see the thing I still 'feel it'.
Have you ever held one in your hands? I carried mine empty about 15 feet and needed an engine hoist to get it up on a table after that because holding it in your arms and lifting it above your arms is two different things.
Its a hungry beast. I have trouble topping 23mpg with a 3.5:1 rear gear and a 26" tall tire at just 3000lbs. I'll fight for 25 this year... whereas the 6-speed manual trans does 30mpg easily in this config.
Damn manuals.
In any case I'll give everything I have and anything I have free support for everyone on every forum, I'm here to help and support, not trying to say anything bad.
When I do these strange comparison posts its because the natural method for my understanding usually involves "arguing against oneself", aka playing devil's advocate against your own beliefs in order to expose weaknesses.
This typically helps examine every side at once. For example if people are saying great things about "X" I will find the opposite arguments in order to make a defense comparison, even if based on theory.
It isn't popular on forums but try to see that I do it even to myself in my own way. It isn't against any part or combination but rather against the popular ideals that everyone seems to accept without any scrutiny because everyone else is using/doing it.
Looks pretty good, couple pointers
1. use smoothing:0 for diagnostic value, the shape of the torque curve especially will be extremely revealing when done this way
2. I bet you would have an extra ~80 ft*lb of torque from 2500 to 3500 if you could get the a/f to drop into the 12.5's in that region
notice how it sort of meanders up after the a/f properly dips
any reveals? what was final timing? The engine may prefer 24* to 26* (most people try 30+ and never bother to check what 25 would do)
at 4500-5000 I would be sitting on 25* and edge out to 27* by redline
from 2500-3500 start around 17-22* and work up to 27* by 3800 then pull back to 25* by 4200
Should create a fairly flat torque curve for the lower regions
These are sea level numbers btw for 93 octane roughly 9.5 to 10:1 compression
Got a new set of founders caster/camber plates installed. So who else thinks the red color is just a little much?? Thinking black would have been a cleaner look.
after about 1 hour of stop and go traffic, my stock rad/fan was struggling a little bit to keep things cool. temp only got to 205 degrees but this is with a 160 deg tstat, fan on at 180 deg, and the temp was still slowly creeping up. and this was with 70 deg outdoor air. however, highway temps are super cool, right around 165 deg.
after some research i found that the stock single fan's lack of shrouding can lead to poor low speed cooling. I did some messing around with it and did find it pulling a lot of air from around the radiator and not through it. I had some time today and made some templates up to improve airflow when the fan is on. anyone have experience with this? should I get these fab'd up at a sheet metal shop?
i guess the other option is to stick a bigger aluminum 3row in it.
i got the shroud made up and installed. I will get some run time this weekend to see if there is any improvement in low speed / heavy traffic temp control and report back. photos below
new numbers today! got the tune dialed in and final numbers were 380/380. not bad! baseline vs new curves shown below! this is with an unlocked 3600 stall converter on a 4l80e!
decided to upgrade radiators as temps were creeping up a bit with the factory setup. with a 160 deg tstat, fan on at 189 deg, i saw temps hit 210 in stop and go traffic and the gauge was still climbing a bit. anyway ended up going with a mishimoto 2 row aluminum radiator to keep things in check. well, after running it just once, it ran 10-15 degrees hotter than the factory. After further inspection, it is in fact a 2 row radiator. however each row is only about 0.55". the factory tube with is around 1.4". this means the factory rad has larger tubes than this fancy aftermarket version (probably why they dont state the tube width on the website when ordering). Also, after looking inside, many of the tube ends are reduced in size/boogered up. needless to say this unit is out of the car and on its way back to jegs.
what radiator do you guys recommend? was thinking a dewitts unit which has 2 rows of 1" tubes, a good improvement over factory.
LS engines don't require as much cooling capacity as a SBC. I'm surprised your stock V8 radiator can't to the job. Maybe it was just dirty?
Could be. It’s also got a bunch of bent fins. It’s doing a decent job, highest temp I saw was about 210 in heavy traffic with 95 deg outside air temp. I may be overdoing it a bit with a bigger rad, but I’d rather be sure I have adequate cooling than watch the gauge all the time.
160 deg tstat with fan on at 189 deg so it was getting higher than I would like. I will post results with the Dewitt’s. Just placed an order, should be here in a week or two
So basically you might as well not even have a thermostat because it's just open all the time. I think that could be your problem.
I have a stock LS1 f-body thermostat. One fan comes on at 195F and the other comes on at 200F and deactivates at 185F. This is with stock 3rd gen dual fans. Rock solid temperatures under almost any condition.
A lower temp thermostat is entirely pointless for racing because the thermostat is going to be wide open anyway. Just choose the thermostat that makes your car drive nice.
12-04-2018, 06:00 AM
