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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
I did try the smaller hose on the radiator; the water pump side was a little small, but if it wasn't for the idler arm nuts, I'd just run that one.
I did stick the Cherokee hose in place briefly, but since I'm going to have to cut about 4"-5" off of it before I can even get it on the water pump and radiator, I don't know exactly how it's going to fit.
Apply a tiny bit of vaseline to the inside of the hose and it will slip on and off easily for trial fit. And I do mean a tiny bit. You'll be amazed how effective it is.
Okay folks, here's the hose update; I'll let the pictures do the talking:
After trimming the hose, this was the only contact point I had: on the swapped Malibu fan that I'm using. I'm just going to grind that part of the fan shroud down. It's got plenty of other support braces.
This is my clearance between the hose and the idler arm nuts.
Here's the view from the other side; as you can see from QwkTrip's and Billgluckman's builds, it doesn't fit exactly the same as their's did, but that's because this is a custom setup, and I'm not using the same brand of hose as they did:
These are all of the pieces left over after making the hose fit:
For those of you who are barely checking in, I'm using a 4th gen fuse box to route all of my engine/ transmission wiring through for easier troubleshooting if anything goes wrong.
I needed a place to mount it, so I'm putting it next to the battery on the passenger side. It's a really tight fit getting the battery in there when the fuse box is in place, and for that reason I decided to use wing nuts on the fuse box mount in case I ever have to change the battery on the roadside.
Here is the view from the other side. It might not look like it, but it clears the A/C condenser lines. I'm going to grind down those bolts next to the battery.
Today I realized that I hadn't addressed a very important issue for my swap: Transmission cooler lines.
I saved the lines off of the Tahoe donor vehicle, in hopes that they would fit. Right now, I am skeptical.
I could only get one line in place with the passenger motor mount bolted in, and it doesn't look good.
What did you other guys do about transmission lines in your swaps?
For those of you wondering, I decided to go with the 4th gen F-body transmission line routing, which goes down by the OD servo housing, under the starter, then up along the oil pan rail.
I'm going to have to bend my own lines for this, but it's nothing I haven't done before.
For a long time, I've been hearing that the truck coil packs/ coil pack mount will not play nice with the LS1/ LS6 fuel rail... And they are right. But I think I found out how to make them get along.
Here is a picture of the clearance between the quick connect fitting and the truck coil mount, and the fuel rail isn't even seated all the way:
The coil for number 5 isn't bolted in place, and here is why:
As you can see, the truck coil contacts the LS6 fuel rail inlet, and it's not even bolted in all the way. My first thought was to try bending the inlet, but I think it would probably crack if I tried that.
So I've come up with this option: Cut up the truck bracket, and drill a new hole(s):
The red lines represent the cuts that will be made; it won't be a one-piece unit anymore, but this won't be the first time coil packs are mounted on their own.
The green circle is where the rear mount of the coil pack will go, and I may or may not weld a reinforcement onto the other mount. Or maybe I'll just tie it in some other way.
I wish I would have seen this earlier, you can use your factory 3rd gen 700r4 lines. All you have to do is remove the adapters from the 4l60e then the lines will thread right in.
i ran truck coils and brackets with mine too. I had to cut and re weld the brackets to make them work but it’s easy. I might do something different later on but it works for now.
****... I cut the 700R4 lines when removing everything because I assumed they wouldn't fit, then took them to the scrap yard with all the rest of the junk on my monthly run...
I actually thought that the Tahoe lines would be the best option (the outlets on the 700R4 and 4L60E are at different angles, after all), but since the Tahoe exhaust manifold spread out wider than the F-Body stuff, I had issues.
As far as the coil packs go, I made the necessary cuts, and I've got all the clearance I need. I don't like the idea of running a coil held on with one bolt, so I'm going to weld a tab on the opposite side to give it proper support...
Or I could just be ghetto, and leave the whole coil pack assembly unbolted (I've actually seen this done).
Really though, I'm going to weld a bracket/ tab right here (and as you can see, I've got lots of clearance for the fuel line now):
I ran truck coils and brackets with mine too. I had to cut and re weld the brackets to make them work but it’s easy. I might do something different later on but it works for now.
It looks like you had different coils and brackets than I do; mine seem to sit higher than yours. I don't even want to know what I'm going to have to modify to get the passenger side to clear the HVAC box...
I have the round coils on my 4.8 like you have and I kept the fuel line inlet on the drivers side. I cut the support off the inlet, bent the line slightly to the rear to clear the coil, and used a tie wrap to re-support the inlet so it can't vibrate. I just double wrapped the tie in an X tight to the rail
It looks like you had different coils and brackets than I do; mine seem to sit higher than yours. I don't even want to know what I'm going to have to modify to get the passenger side to clear the HVAC box...
On that side the bracket is untouched. I just have it lowered and I’m only using one or maybe two mounting bolts. The other side I cut the bracket up because of interference with the a/c box.
My silverado has different coils than my car. Brackets are the same.
This clears the a/c. Notice the rear coil is higher. I chopped that rear section off and moved it up a little.
Im not using the factory mount spots on either side. It works for now. I want some of those aftermarket valve covers that the coils bolt directly to eventually
Okay, this is sort of an update: We've been getting heavy, localized thunderstorms down here, and I got who knows how many inches of rain in a short period at my shop.
Did I mention my shop floods?
Because it does.
For some reason, my grandfather (I still have control of this place, even after my dad's death) chose to build his farm shop on the lowest point on the property, a judgement error I will never forgive him for.
Two inches of rain in one hour will get water all over the floor; 8+ inches (like I got) means I will be dealing with muddy water for days.
How bad is it? Take a look for yourself:
That's the swap Firebird; needless to say, the LS swap will be on hold for the next week or so. At least it's off the ground.
What's even worse is that they're forecasting MORE rain for next week.
That's the way rain usually comes in the Valley; we are dry as a bone for most of the year, with crops drying and dying, and then we get slammed with way more water than we can possibly handle.
This is one of the many reasons why I call this the ******* of Texas.
You need to dig a place for that water to go so it doesn't happen anymore, or not as bad. Even though your car is up in the air, the rust is still going to accelerate
Rent a mini excavator or backhoe and start digging, fill it with rock and sand, and you will have a lot less problems in the future
Non stop rain and storms here in Louisiana too. I’ve lost power 3x in the last couple weeks. It’s pouring outside right now. My shop will take on a little water when it rains for days but nothing like yours. Looks like you need to do some dirt work lol
Okay guys, the water is pretty much gone, so I get to work on it again.
For those of you wondering, the land this shop is built on already has drain tiling, but it's the lowest point for a long way.
Like I said, I have no idea why my grandfather decided to build his shop here; my only guess is that he wanted to maximize available crop space.
Anyway, I decided to work on the coolers for the car, specifically the power steering cooler.
I'm repurposing the Tahoe transmission cooler as a power steering cooler, and I wanted to reuse the existing mounts.
I was able to bend the top mounts and bolt them to the upper radiator support area, and I will be adding a small tab of steel to mount the lower bracket to the support.
If you look in the background, you can see the transmission cooler that I'm going to use; it will be mounted in a similar fashion.
The red rectangle is where I'm going to put the second support bracket. I really tried to make the factory bracket work, but there was no way.
Just one more thing on the drain, has it ever been cleaned out? It could be clogged with sediment. If you're at the bottom of a bowl then yeah it'll be hard to do anything with the water. Maybe a moat and some alligators...
This might be a dumb question, but, is a power steering cooler needed? I'm not sure I really knew that was a thing, I don't know a ton about steering systems.
The system empties into a drainage ditch about a mile away (and it runs under a state highway). I haven't checked on it in years, and even if there IS something wrong with it, I'm not in control of the land anymore.
Originally Posted by SteelDirigible
This might be a dumb question, but, is a power steering cooler needed? I'm not sure I really knew that was a thing, I don't know a ton about steering systems.
Is it needed?
No.
Does it help prolong the life of the power steering components?
Yes.
For that matter, you could run an automatic transmission with no cooling system, but it won't last long.
Have you ever wondered why power steering boxes leak?
They don't have nearly as much movement as a crank seal, or a CV axle.
While I can't say that ALL steering box leaks are because of overheated fluid, I'd say that the majority of leaks are because the seals get hot, shrink, and lose pliability.
So while I'm pretty much doing everything from scratch (and because I've got a spare cooler lying around), I'm going to use it, and I recommend other people to do the same, if they are interested.
EDIT: Let me put it this way: Pretty much all Chevy and Ford trucks made since the late '90s come with power steering coolers. If they think it's a good idea, then so do I.
This might be a dumb question, but, is a power steering cooler needed? I'm not sure I really knew that was a thing, I don't know a ton about steering systems.
A guy on LS1tech.com did a test of an aftermarket power steering cooler here:
I killed my PS pump on my 4.8 swap when I did the road course at NJMP in 2017. All I had was the factory PS "cooler" loop that ran up to the air damn, definitely not enough cooling capacity if you're doing any racing.
I killed my PS pump on my 4.8 swap when I did the road course at NJMP in 2017. All I had was the factory PS "cooler" loop that ran up to the air damn, definitely not enough cooling capacity if you're doing any racing.
One issue with the loop is it gets no cool airflow if you have a proper airdam. At the very least move the cooler line loop in front of the airdam, a few loops in front of the radiator looking like the back of an old refrigerator should cool it cheaply.
One issue with the loop is it gets no cool airflow if you have a proper airdam. At the very least move the cooler line loop in front of the airdam, a few loops in front of the radiator looking like the back of an old refrigerator should cool it cheaply.
The stock setup is in front of the airdamn, I thought since it hangs off the back of the actual bumper it is way in front of it. I'd have to look at it again, but that's what I seem to remember
No, the factory "cooler" is bolted to the lower radiator support, behind the airdam on both Camaros and Firebirds.
You made me doubt myself, had to check when I got home. No it's not, it would be pointless to put it there. It's bolted to the back of the bumper and hangs down so it is in the path of the airflow in front of the airdamn.
Well now that is curious, mine was in touched when I bought it in 1997. Maybe a dealer fix, my car was a 305, LO3 Ws6, non 1le car. Maybe different between years/models?
Also mine has additional plastic parts there.
And yes a single loop isn't sufficient with the ls pump, but a few loops might be. Though I would just get a proper cooler.
Well now that is curious, mine was in touched when I bought it in 1997. Maybe a dealer fix, my car was a 305, LO3 Ws6, non 1le car. Maybe different between years/models?
Also mine has additional plastic parts there.
And yes a single loop isn't sufficient with the ls pump, but a few loops might be. Though I would just get a proper cooler.
I had an 88 GTA, 91 GTA, 91 TA and 92 Firebird. They all have in front of the airdamn :shrug:
On my 91 GTA I will be putting in a proper cooler, I plan on racing it too. It's not so much the loops, but the fins that do the work. The one that dixie posted in the other thread would probably be better than multiple loops
Scooter, I'm sorry if I came off the wrong way, but every Third gen I've owned ('88, '89, '92, and my fiance's '89) all had them behind the airdam.
Well, that's GM for you...
Anyway, here's an update: I've got good news and bad news.
Good news is that it looks like my high-mount round truck coils will clear the HVAC box without any modifications!
It's close, but it looks like it will clear:
Here's the bad news: I really don't think I'm going to be able to route the wires under the HVAC box to the PCM inside. I think I'm going to have to go over the HVAC box, which I REALLY didn't want to do.
Here's what I'm dealing with: 1) It's and automatic car, so the dipstick tube is necessary. 2) I'm reusing the 2.8 heater lines. They tuck in pretty close, and I DO NOT want heater hoses on top of the engine. 3) Fully functioning air conditioning is non-negotiable.
Here is a shot of the V6 heater lines installed; I'm going to braze some extensions onto the cut ends to match with the LS water pump outlets:
I really like these tubes because they stay down low, and the allow for adequate dipstick tube clearance:
Here are a couple more shots of the clearance to sort of get an idea.
This is my only ace in the hole: to run all of the engine wires behind the transmission dipstick tube, and possibly make new lines for the heater.
Do you really need a heater? Think about it before you answer.
I always said yes until my heater core leaked and ruined a $200 firewall pad. I took out the heater core and coolant lines and haven't missed it yet. I only drive the car between April and October anyway.
Do you really need a heater? Think about it before you answer.
Hmm, let me think about it... Yes.
Originally Posted by dixiebandit69
Here's the background on the car/ swap: It's my fiance's daily driver...
This isn't a 1,500 mile a year, summer-only toy. This thing has to start up every day of the year with no strange noises, and climate control is a must.
I've been thinking about it all day, and I'm going to run the wires around the HVAC box and down to the hole I cut.
In other news, I'm going to run a 4-corner steam line setup, using the '04 Tahoe's front line on the rear, and a GMT900 front line on the front tied together, venting into the passenger side water pump spacer outlet (I'm using an F-Body water pump with spacers, for those just checking in.).
Here is how the front line fits on the rear:
Here is how it looks with the intake manifold and dipstick tube somewhat in place (the tube isn't bolted down yet):
It looks like I'm going to have to bend it forward slightly, but that's no big deal.
I'll have more pictures of the steam line system up as soon as I get a coolant crossover pipe from a 2009+ Silverado.
1) I finally got the transmission and power steering coolers mounted.
Also, after much deliberation, I decided that I'm going to route all of the PCM wiring through the factory location in the passenger fender-well.
I REALLY didn't want to do it this way, but I realized that there was no way to realistically run all the wiring through the hole I drilled under the HVAC box (I wouldn't be able to remove the box if there was a problem, unless I was to unplug the PCM. And I'd still have a big, ugly bunch of wires out there in the open, which I what I was trying to avoid in the first place.
So now I'm going to route the HVAC wires though the hole I cut (since they can be easily disconnected), and all of the engine wires will go through the factory location.
Here's an interesting update; today I was going to pull the engine and transmission out so I could paint the engine bay and treat some rust; I took the intake manifold off the engine only to find this:
Look at that sh*t. Just f*cking look at it. A goddam rat had babies inside my engine.
Luckily, I caught this in time, and I had all of the important holes plugged off with rags.
My first instinct was to gather them all up, and give my Ball Pythons a little snack, but I decided on this instead:
I want that mother rat dead, and the best way to ensure this is to catch her. So I stuck two of the little f*cks on a glue trap (that way she can smell/ hear them), and then put the intake manifold back on. The other three babies are about to be eaten by my two Ball Pythons, Tenga and 8-Ball.
I ran mine through the factory location. What I did was buy a second harness and stripped it down by cutting the wires as long as possible. Installed the pcm where I wanted it and routed the wires up by the blower motor where the stock harness ran. Then with the engine installed and that harness routed so the pcm plug was above the blower I cut and spliced the wires. Be warned there are duplicate colors so be careful. Also staggered the splices so you don't have a large bludge in the harness.
It's because I didn't have the valley cover in place; I just had the intake manifold sitting on top, and I would just wrap an industrial sized trash bag around the engine for storage.
I was really hoping to catch that damn mother rat, but she got away, with the babies, although I'm not too sure how good of a shape they are in now:
Yup, Mama Rat chewed them out of the glue trap (made a big mess with all that sticky stuff; maybe this wasn't such a hot idea after all), and left a few of their feet behind...
At any rate, I got the engine back out of the car and back on the stand, and I'll begin prepping and painting the engine bay.
Originally Posted by Aviator857
I ran mine through the factory location. What I did was buy a second harness and stripped it down by cutting the wires as long as possible. Installed the pcm where I wanted it and routed the wires up by the blower motor where the stock harness ran. Then with the engine installed and that harness routed so the pcm plug was above the blower I cut and spliced the wires. Be warned there are duplicate colors so be careful. Also staggered the splices so you don't have a large bludge in the harness.
I already bought a 50-pack of those things, but I'll probably need more.
But that's a problem for future Bandit; right now, I need to finish the engine bay, and pull the car over to my house, where I will have more time to work on it.
You sure the rat came back? Could have been something else.
I thought I was gonna get away with mounting the harness and ecm in factory truck location.. I have seen it done on a few third gens on YouTube but I may have to lengthen mine too. I just was trying to avoid all those splices... very time consuming and that's a bunch of wires...
You sure the rat came back? Could have been something else.
I thought I was gonna get away with mounting the harness and ecm in factory truck location.. I have seen it done on a few third gens on YouTube but I may have to lengthen mine too. I just was trying to avoid all those splices... very time consuming and that's a bunch of wires...
I'm sure it was the rat; she tried to free the babies the only way she knew how: Chewing them out.
I (very) briefly considered mounting the PCM in the factory truck location (front left of the engine compartment, for those unfamiliar) and just using the factory wire harness routing, but I didn't want that big bundle of wires in front of the engine. Also, I just figured that it would be better for the PCM to be inside, away from heat.
As it is, I'm going to be relocating the headlamp control module from the firewall to the front-left corner of the engine bay, out of sight for a cleaner look.
I had no issues mounting truck accessories under my stock firebird hood. I run stock truck intake, stock truck accessories PS pump and alternator (I went with the small case style) and didn’t have to touch the hood. I don’t run AC tho so I get the notching.
I had no issues mounting truck accessories under my stock firebird hood. I run stock truck intake, stock truck accessories PS pump and alternator (I went with the small case style) and didn’t have to touch the hood. I don’t run AC tho so I get the notching.
I read over your build thread; nice work. I wish I'd seen it sooner.
I guess I probably should have followed some of my own advice and tried the truck alternator in the factory location, but I didn't, because everyone said that it won't fit a Firebird hood without a cowl.
It's too late now, because I already cut up the truck bracket, and I can't return the alternator mount anymore.
What I WILL do is see if the truck intake/ throttle body will clear the hood; once again, I just figured it wouldn't fit, but if it will, then I know that I can do an EVEN CHEAPER LS swap on my own 'Bird.
Right now I'm going to cut some rust out of the firewall/ wheel well area, and repaint the engine bay.
I read over your build thread; nice work. I wish I'd seen it sooner.
I guess I probably should have followed some of my own advice and tried the truck alternator in the factory location, but I didn't, because everyone said that it won't fit a Firebird hood without a cowl.
It's too late now, because I already cut up the truck bracket, and I can't return the alternator mount anymore.
What I WILL do is see if the truck intake/ throttle body will clear the hood; once again, I just figured it wouldn't fit, but if it will, then I know that I can do an EVEN CHEAPER LS swap on my own 'Bird.
Right now I'm going to cut some rust out of the firewall/ wheel well area, and repaint the engine bay.
More pictures coming soon.
Lol no problem. The truck intake clears mine as well. Depends on which truck intake as I’ve run both, the older version (not the TBS or NNBS) clears better. On the NNBS the MAP basically just cleared my hood support. But my motor is not in the stock location (I think it’s forward 3/4” toward the rad). It’s so tight I couldn’t put a bolt in the first boss on the NNBS behind the TB bc it would have hit the support.
I also run cheap solid SBC motor mounts which I think are slightly lower than the 3rd gen specific solid mounts.
Update: I've got my front accessories in place, for now.
Here's how everything will be, with the power steering pump off:
Here's how the belt will be routed with the power steering pump on:
I know that the crank/ power steering pump belt contact area isn't ideal, but I've seen worse setups that worked, and this is the best I could come up with, since I can't run the belt over the water outlet (intake clearance).
I'm open to suggestions.
I mentioned tack-welding together the Goat-Built alternator mount; well, I did it. Now I don't have to worry about dropping parts on the side of the road if there's an emergency repair:
Here it is, all bolted together. I welded it on the engine.
I had cut up the truck alternator/ power steering bracket in hopes of placing the tensioner on that side. That didn't work out, so I decided to put an idler pulley in that area, and I used a piece of aluminum spacer from a '79 Ford F150 (my first vehicle!) power steering pump that I had laying around. It was an almost perfect fit, but since my bracket had been modified, don't expect to pull one out of the junkyard and it's going to work.
Something that's worth mentioning is that the 10mm bolt that the LS engines use for the front accessories is too small for most accessory pulleys (I'm using one of the pulleys off of the 2.8L V6 that is being sacrificed), so I had to cut a piece of spacer/ bushing material out of some stock that I had laying around the shop. It's a little bit looser than I'd like, but I don't think it's going to give me a problem.
Here is what the idler pulley setup looks like, when it's taken apart. The little cylinder goes inside the hub of the pulley.
I grabbed an Astro Van steering shaft last week; today, I re-clocked the U-Joints to work with an F-Body setup.
If you look closely, the yokes on the shaft are opposed; in a regular driveshaft, this would cause vibrations, but for a steering shaft, it should be okay.
For the record, this is my first time clocking the Astro shaft.
I installed one on my own Firebird years back, but I just bolted it in and ran it. I had to re-clock my steering wheel, and my turn signals didn't work the same anymore because of the canceling-cam changes.
I'm looking forward to much better results with this setup.
This is just to get rid of the rag joint? I forgot people were doing this and I never looked into it. I might have to snag one next time at a the yard.
In other news, I finally started prepping the engine bay for painting.
Have I ever told you guys that I hate body work/ painting?
Because I do.
This is nowhere near done yet, but I got a little more done today.
I am REALLY not looking forward to all of the other work I'm going to have to do to finish this part of the project; I do not have the patience for body work.
are big cams needed? are turbos or superchargers needed? not everything needs to ride the razors edge of catastrophe,
better to overbuild and be overly safe with nice big rads,dual fans,power steering coolers,trans coolers etc
06-08-2019, 05:06 PM
