When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
No new pics to share. There isn't much visible progress going on at the moment. The last couple days it's been foggy, with misting rain, which pretty much rules out running air tools. The Craftsman earth-shaker turns electricity into noise and hot, wet air. Running the air grinder for more than a minute or so results in water spraying out of the exhaust, which isn't really ideal for bare metal and rust mediation. So that leaves the electric grinder and manual tools.
I'm maintaining my focus on the driver's side, mostly because that's what I can get at right now. The front driver's wheel well is about ready to feather what's left of the OE sealer into the bare steel spots that used to be rusty. The rear wheel well has gotten a bit of attention between other projects, but I need the air grinder to get into some of the tighter areas. The fender arch has had much of it's chipped and weathered paint stripped down to shiny steel, and I've started working on the rocker areas from the rear wheel opening forward, and back.
The driver's door is pretty much stalled while I keep refreshing the bloody Amazon tracking. They promised free 2-day shipping, up until checkout when they tried to pull the "sign up for Prime" power play. Didn't figure it'd matter much, maybe a day or two at the most. Placed the order after midnight Sunday, so technically very early Monday the 26th, and it didn't ship until Friday. UPS predicts I'll have the sanding blocks on Tuesday, the same day the Stud Lever I ordered off Ebay Thursday night, is supposed to be delivered. None too happy with Amazon.
In the meantime, I've been sanding the edges of the door skin, where I didn't want to grind too heavily with power tools. I finally got around to removing some loose seam sealer on the front of the door around the hinges. Not sure why it was even applied around one side of the hinges beyond sloppy application to the door skin lap joint. As usual, found surface rust under the sealer. Scraped, sanded, little Ospho, cleaned.
Went after the residual adhesive from the plastic moisture shield that used to be under the door panel. All that remains are 1x2" dirty dark splotches. 3M Adhesive Remover seemed like a good fit for the job, but didn't remotely phase the old stickum. Switched to Acetone which breaks the stuff down, but also takes the green OE overspray down to the original E-coat. I really don't want to strip the entire inside of the door to factory primer, so I'll come back to the other patches of glue later.
While the Acetone was out, I scrubbed rattle can sealer and primer off the top of the door skin and door frame where it'd oversprayed while working on the door. Nearly all of the rattle can stuff came off down to original green paint, bare areas that I'd sealed didn't show any signs of rust, which I found surprising.
Turned my attention to the driver's firewall and interior floor pan. There were some spots of rust around the brake booster opening, that I had quickly touched with POR15 way-back-when until I could address the issue properly.
2016 pic showing a bit of the rusty area I'd hit with POR15. Like most POR15 areas, I ended up stripping this all down to metal. Turned out there was surface rust under the OE paint and primer around all 5 holes. Not sure how that happens without the paint failing completely, but this is not remotely close to the first time I've found rust under paint that 'looks' fine.
Also spent a bit of time cleaning out the seams between the floor pan and inner rocker panel, as well as the floor pan to toe boards. They'd been cleaned out before, but with the window out and sitting outside, there was plenty of dirt and debris that had blown in, or settled in after grinding and sanding. Picture going over the joint with a stainless toothbrush, and a hook tool to knock loose the trash, then vacuuming with the Shop-Vac. While I was in there, I also cleaned up a few spot welds on the front of the floor pan that had collected dirt and in some cases mild surface rust. Most of this stuff really just needs to be cleaned up so I can get in there with Epoxy to seal the bare metal, and then goop all the joints up with 3M sealer to make it waterproof again. At some point I'll need to decide I have enough area prepped to justify mixing up the Epoxy and I'll start spraying again. I've got a few cans of Eastwood's Epoxy in a rattle can that I can use in a pinch. At least with the car (can I call it a car when it's a steel stamping that loosely resembles a car body?) indoors, I don't have to worry about it flash rusting over night.
So that's how things are progressing. A little here, a little there, if you didn't know what to look for, you wouldn't know I've worked on it the last few days.
Got back to it yesterday evening. In the process of shooting pics to document Sunday night progress, I also snapped shots of earlier work I hadn't yet documented. Put it all together, with the fact that this phase is largely going over an area until I'm sick of being contorted into that position, then moving onto another area, then coming back to the first area again... It's a bit repetitive and visible progress is hard to pick up on. If you're still following this thread, you've earned a Gold star sticker! To claim your sticker, send a SASE to Save the Bird Industries, and wait 4-6 years for delivery.
So to retrace steps...
The Brake Booster opening/Pedal mounting surface has been stripped and polished down to a mostly shiny surface. This will get more attention when the humidity drops, or I climb in there and finish the job by hand.
The Driver's foot well is getting closer. I've been cleaning trash and surface rust off the lap joint where the floor pans meet the toe boards, as well as cleaning up the various spot welds that tend to trap dirt. Eventually this will all be cleaned, roughed up, cleaned again, and primed with Epoxy. Then I get to reapply sealer to all the seams I've lovingly stripped.
Moving on over the hump, we reach the roughly repaired rust hole on the passenger's side. Note my lovely stack of spot welds that started as zapping a pin hole closed, and turned into this glob of precautionary tale. The moral of the story is that when you can identify a rusty pin hole, no matter how small, you're further ahead to cut away as much steel as necessary to reach good steel, and then weld in a patch from clean steel scrap. Because if you try to just zap that thin once-rusty steel, it'll just blow through and melt away leaving you a bigger nastier hole. The harder you try to cover it up, the worse it gets. If this unsightly mess was anywhere except the middle layer of a 3 piece joint (inner fender/firewall/toe board) I'd cut it away and weld in new steel. However, since this is going to be under a glob of seam sealer, and GM left holes under seam sealer all over the car, I'm content to leave this be and not create any more work for myself. So it got a squirt of Ospho, and it'll probably get another squirt of Ospho, and if it's lucky I'll go over it with a scrubby pad, then it'll get primed, covered in sealer, and forgotten about until 25 years from now when some joker on Motorpede TV scrapes away the sealer and rebounds in horror at how someone could do such a sloppy repair.
How about something different? Way back in 2017, I bought a quart of POR15. One of the areas on my checklist, was the battery tray. Better than some I've seen, but ultimately, a pitted and corroded mess, I figured POR15 would be a good way to cancel the rust apocalypse. At least to a minor extent, this treatment worked out OK. It locked the rust, it has mostly stayed stuck, but generally looks like total ****. Even after priming and sanding, it looked like hell.
So we fast forward a bit, and here is the bottom of the same battery tray, after removing the bulk of the POR15, grinding, sanding, sanding, and grinding. There's still plenty of pitting, and I'll probably go over it again with Ospho and sand some more before I Epoxy it, but it's vastly improved from where it's been in the past.
While we're under there... The Driver's front wheel well is coming along. All the rust has been neutralized, abraded, and polished to shiny steel. Everything in this shot has been sanded with 120, and roughed up with 80 grit. I'll probably go over it a bit more to sooth the OCD Beast, then it'll get cleaned, cleaned, and cleaned again before Epoxy.
I briefly touched on the sealer around the inside edge of the door hing straps. Here the surface rust under the sealer is visible. I've already been in here a bit sanding and brushing the rust. It's a tight spot, the door will probably come off before long, and it'll be easier to address without the hinge in the way. Also I went over the door detent assembly a bit with the wire brush to strip away the flash rust. When I rebuilt the hinge, everything was oiled and greased, but it's sat out for a couple years since. It'll get more attention before primer/paint.
Continuing the gory Door story... The door labels have long been a concern, what with the condition of the Driver's door. I'd prefer to save things like this that would be difficult or impossible to restore, but seeing as how the door skin seam all around the door needs to be resealed, I didn't feel that the labels could be left alone and expected to survive. The only chance the labels would have of survival was if they were removed from the doors. They were heated on fairly low heat with the small heat gun, then I started a corner with a sharp #11 X-acto blade. While heating I peeled back the labels, occasionally chasing the label away from the door any time I could see the adhesive pulling off the label like the cheese on a fresh pizza. Aside from getting a little impatient, the labels came off mostly intact. As the pics show, these labels on this 1991 Firebird are Avery tamper resistant labels. In a perfect world, the backing would stay stuck in a pattern showing the Avery logo. Either age, or the right amount of heat, or technique kept most of the special backing on the labels. I'm happy with the result in this case, on a nicer car or something of historical significance, I'd probably try to avoid removing the labels.
While working on this car, sometimes things jump out at you and make you WTF. One example was noticing that two of the three window felt guides were bent up. It's a head scratcher, because they were bent so evenly... I had to question whether they should be bent up, or if they were supposed to be flat like I thought. Luckily, I had another door right across the hump. I removed one of the felt guides on the Passenger's door, and sure enough, the mounting surface is supposed to be flat. I didn't really get a before shot, but in the pic above you can see how the door under both rear guides are bent into a peak.
An easy fix with the hammer and dolly. There are some tiny stress cracks from whatever caused the damage originally, but the door doesn't seem to flex at those points like the others I've welded. Knowing that this is an area that was stretched when the door was stamped, and stretched again when damaged, attempting to weld these cracks would probably result in blow through and headaches, so I'm probably just going to let them slide.
And I leave you with some shots of more stripped steel... With the shitty weathered paint stripped away, we have nice rust free rocker panels, rust free fender flares, and a bit more progress made in the rear wheel well. The surface rust at the top will be addressed as soon as I can keep the compressed air dry long enough to run the die grinder.
Feeling pretty good about the progress on the driver's side, just think the passenger's side is still two weeks ago... And the passenger's side rocker has a huge crease in it... More on that at some point in the future when I roll the car outside, turn it 180* and roll it back in, so uh... 2019 probably...
Nice job on removing the door decals! You're right, this time of year is hit and miss. Saturday, it's cold and rainy and as soon as I open the garage and begin, there is condensation forming on everything. Done with that! Sunday was better! One of these days, I will have a climate controlled garage!
Nice job on removing the door decals! You're right, this time of year is hit and miss. Saturday, it's cold and rainy and as soon as I open the garage and begin, there is condensation forming on everything. Done with that! Sunday was better! One of these days, I will have a climate controlled garage!
My garage is only slightly climate controlled. It's insulated, and it's got a window air conditioner. During the winter when I know I'm gonna be out there, I've got an oil filled electric room heater that keeps the temp comfortable.
Originally Posted by DynoDave43
Still reading. Thanks for the Gold Star. It will look great on my dunce cap.
Don't encourage me. LOL I've seen two or three 350 and LB9/5spd Formulas pop-up relatively locally since I started this project. I just keep telling myself I already have one, and a second if I just paint it and put it all together. Just like Christmas morning... Some assembly required, Batteries not included.
I don't need that kind of distraction but just incase, where is this 2,500 formula? lol
Hahaha, my bad, they don't call me "Hijacking Harold" for nothin. It's chilling at my place, was gonna do (2) up, decided to stick with 1 now.
Sorry Drew, I will get a room! By the way, you just took another pic of that driver side toe kick area, just to rub in that high quality repair.....didn't ya. Don't lie 😂😂😂
My self control cannot repel firepower of that magnitude!
It's like Thirdgen Horders Anonymous in here, but instead of helping each other cope with our addictions, we're enabling each other...
Nah, I've gotta clean all the rattle can primer off the repair so the epoxy will go directly on top of the steel. I'm probably being overly cautious, but it seems to me that if the epoxy goes over rattle can sealer, it'll depend on the bond quality of the rattle can sealer, vs if it's directly applied to metal the epoxy will be bonded to the metal. Forever.
I'm pretty happy with the repair in that corner, but I've been ignoring the bit of overlapping flange that was rusted away from the toe board. On one hand, I figure that seam sealer and whatnot will cover up that area and keep the water out. On the other, I'm about to waltz over to that Mustang fender like Mr Blonde and hack off another piece of steel to fab a patch panel. In some of the pics there's the tiniest pin hole. It's mocking me. Daring me to return to the scene of the crime with the MIG so I can turn it into a huge burnt hole. We'll see what happens. I'd say it's 50/50 whether I'll cut out a bit of the toe board and stick a new piece in there. I don't really want to, but if I don't it'll haunt me.
The Big Brown Truck driver dropped off the Stud Lever and sanding blocks a little while ago. I no longer have any excuses to prevent me from massaging the door skin a bit better. We'll see if the Stud Lever applies enough leverage to pull the dents without dragging the entire car across the floor. Also played with the windshield a little bit. Harbor Freight's windshield knife is a POS. The blade is forged from pure Chinesium, and bends at the slightest force. I'll have to figure out another course of action. Looks like Auto Body Toolmart carries a similar knife and replacement blades, perhaps one of their blades would be made from better steel? If not I've made fair progress with a utility knife.
The windshield channel is part of the topside project. I'm still whittling away at the bottom side. The cart arrangement affords great accessibility to the rockers, wheel wells, and engine bay, but not so great access to the floor pans. The pans under the passenger compartment need to be stripped clean yet. The trans tunnel is in good shape, so it's really just from the bottom of the cowl to the back seat that really needs attention. I'll probably end up putting that off until the bottom of the engine compartment, wheel wells, and the rear third of the under body are in epoxy, then I can build up some supports to take the place of the cart while I do the middle.
It's like Thirdgen Horders Anonymous in here, but instead of helping each other cope with our addictions, we're enabling each other...
Black00SS Was enabling me over text tonight with the parts,
Originally Posted by Drew
In some of the pics there's the tiniest pin hole. It's mocking me.
The pin holes/defects from the MIG drive me nuts too. I think my next project, after I MIG the stuff in and go over it with the TIG so I don't have the crater edges anymore, lol
Originally Posted by Drew
Harbor Freight's windshield knife is a POS. The blade is forged from pure Chinesium, and bends at the slightest force.
Buy the windshield insert for the reciprocating saw, the the pros use when they do the windshields, it's basically a putty knife blade that inserts into the saw. You lube the glass with a heavily soaped water solution and go at it from the inside. It is much easier
Like this one; Don't blindly buy this one though, lol I just quick searched
Nah, I've gotta clean all the rattle can primer off the repair so the epoxy will go directly on top of the steel. I'm probably being overly cautious, but it seems to me that if the epoxy goes over rattle can sealer, it'll depend on the bond quality of the rattle can sealer, vs if it's directly applied to metal the epoxy will be bonded to the metal. Forever.
I'm pretty happy with the repair in that corner, but I've been ignoring the bit of overlapping flange that was rusted away from the toe board. On one hand, I figure that seam sealer and whatnot will cover up that area and keep the water out. On the other, I'm about to waltz over to that Mustang fender like Mr Blonde and hack off another piece of steel to fab a patch panel. In some of the pics there's the tiniest pin hole. It's mocking me. Daring me to return to the scene of the crime with the MIG so I can turn it into a huge burnt hole. We'll see what happens. I'd say it's 50/50 whether I'll cut out a bit of the toe board and stick a new piece in there. I don't really want to, but if I don't it'll haunt me.
So here's a question, and this one keeps me awake at night.
Seam sealer.......
What is the "official" policy on when to apply. The reason I ask is, I get anxiety thinking about doing it either way.
Way #1, apply after the epoxy, but before 2k primer and basecoat. This way gives me anxiety, thinking about the primer and paint sprayed over top of the seam sealer, making it "encased". Also seems like the paint would start to flake away, causing more paint around the area to start to flake away.
Way #2- Apply seam sealer AFTER epoxy, primer, base and clear. No issue here with the interior floor pans, but would look like absolute crapola on the doors, cowl, etc that are somewhat visible. However, this seems like it would be the best way to do it, having a complete paint system in place protecting the metal, with seam sealer on top to seal moisture out.
Obviously, the factory applied some of it before basecoat, and some of it after. What are your thoughts Drew?
The pin holes/defects from the MIG drive me nuts too. I think my next project, after I MIG the stuff in and go over it with the TIG so I don't have the crater edges anymore, lol
Buy the windshield insert for the reciprocating saw, the the pros use when they do the windshields, it's basically a putty knife blade that inserts into the saw. You lube the glass with a heavily soaped water solution and go at it from the inside. It is much easier
For the pin holes in welds, I've been going over the weld with glass filled body filler. It's supposed to be impervious. Seems to be working. The pin holes that are bugging me are from rust. I just have to decide if it's worth cutting out for a couple tiny pin holes.
Funny you mention the Sawzall tool. I've got a scraper blade for one around here somewhere. Got a few for the oscillating tool too that might work. The windshield in the car now is trashed, I just need to get it out so I can clean up the channel around the glass.
Originally Posted by Black00SS
Seam sealer....... What is the "official" policy on when to apply.
I'm planning to follow GM's lead. Epoxy over bare steel, sealer over epoxy, paint over sealer. Lots of options for sealer. Some are rated to be applied direct to metal. Some can be painted. Pretty sure the stuff I ordered is 3M MSP and Urethane. They've got too many options to choose from. At one point I found a diagram of a car, with 3M's recommendations for what to use and where to use it. I need to find that info again. All I can remember is the modern types of sealer are vastly better than the options that used to be available. Anyway, I want to get everything locked in epoxy for longevity, then seal the joints. Figure that way, even if the sealer isn't 100%, whatever still has to defeat the epoxy before it can attack the steel.
All the rust on this car is from chipped or failed paint, or failed sealer. The GM rust preventatives worked pretty well, but anywhere water was trapped, and it could get in a seam it made a mess. Unfortunately short of cutting apart all the welds, the best I can do is epoxy and use the best modern sealers I can.
Spent about 4 hours welding studs to the door and using the Stud Lever to bring low spots closer to the surface. The Stud Lever definitely makes it easier to work low spots with a bit more controlled precision. If nothing else, it's confirming to me that my low spots aren't very deep, because after twisting the stud off the surface, and hitting the area with the sanding block to highlight high/low areas, the sandpaper is hitting the spots where the studs were welded.
I should probably really make an effort to get into my spare parts annex to get the fender, and hang it back on the car so I can see how the door is matching up. For now I've just been using the passenger's door as a reference, and checking the door skin as I go with a straight edge, but there's a bit of a curve in the door from front to back. The top edge with the mirror removed looks like it's supposed to be fairly straight. Same with the body line where the door molding runs. Then there's a pronounced curve in towards the front to meet the A-pillar and fender. Maybe I should drag the spare driver's door inside too. Use it as a guide. Half tempted to cut a section out of the spare door and just patch it into the top front corner of the door. Seems like a bad idea but couldn't be much worse than the mangled mess where the mirror was ripped off...
First, a little spotlight on last night's efforts...
These are the stud pulling tools I'm using in conjunction with the HF stud welder. The slide hammer is great for when you need to apply Thor's Hammer to creased sheet metal, but it's hardcore overkill for fine work where a dolly/hammer can't reach the back side of the dent. These tools cost about as much as the entire HF stud welder kit, but they make it a more versatile tool. Can't say enough positive things about these pullers.
Here's the door skin as it currently sits. Note the high spots from stud pulls. This and my straight edge are telling me that the lower half of the door is close enough for a skim of filler. The top half is still a bit of a mess, largely in part to what I assume is the door skin having been stretched by the accident and probably my efforts as well.
As predicted, I made the journey into my storage annex this afternoon... Not much to tell, Hovitos, carnivorous spiders, booty traps...
I retrieved Ye Olde Fender o' Dirte. Just as dirty as the last time I saw it. Not really rusty, mostly just dirt with some surface crust in a few spots. Easy pick 'uns for the grinder.
As much as I really don't want this thing in the garage taking up space while I work around the car, I really felt I needed a guide to check my work on the green door.
Will you just look at the beauty of an un-mangled door? It's really unfortunate this door has so much rust in the door skin lap joint at the bottom. I'm half tempted to get a lower door skin patch panel and try to fix it. The other thought is to cut a section of this door and weld it in place of the worst damaged section of the green door. I'm not sold on either idea. I need to get this door knocked out so I can scratch it off the list and worry about some other part of the project.
Buy the windshield insert for the reciprocating saw, the the pros use when they do the windshields, it's basically a putty knife blade that inserts into the saw. You lube the glass with a heavily soaped water solution and go at it from the inside. It is much easier
That's what I used to use when I worked for a company doing sunroofs, car alarms and windshields.
Even that will sometimes break the glass or crack it.
If I want to save the glass, I use the piano wire trick. A length of piano wire, 2 vice grips and 4 shiny pennies. I usually heat up an ice pick and poke it through the bottom of the glass to make a small hole, then feed the piano wire through. Grab your unwilling partner and clamp each end of the wire between two pennies extremely tight. One person inside and one outside and saw saw saw all the way round. Works every time.
If I don't care about the glass, I use a wooden handled job with a stainless steel hook knife and rope and just carve it out while it cracks everywhere.
Last edited by kentuckyKITT; 12-05-2018 at 05:50 PM.
Well, I gave the Oscillating Continuum Transfunctioner a try on the windshield. It worked pretty good except the urethane kept grabbing the blade and cracking the retaining screw loose. LOL Guess I'll have to find the blade that goes in the Sawzall.
With the backup door inside, I started stripping it down so I can see exactly what I've got... Most of the guts were removed after I got it home, all the power lock parts and the power regulator were already out. The door handles were pulled awhile back. The primary weatherstrip was removed aside from the corner seal. So, I removed the belt weatherstrip, and the corner seals. Then pulled the lower door hinge...
People. When your door won't close without excess force. When your door makes terrible groaning noises... It's time to address the door hinges! As the pics show, the pin was heavily worn, and the detent roller and it's pin were really worn. I'm not overly happy with my repair on the hinge roller on the car. I might get a new roller/pin assembly and replace the entire assembly, just to see, but I also have an NOS lower hinge coming.
Next, I went over the lower edge of the door and stripped the paint and surface rust down to see what's hiding. The rust wasn't terrible, but clearly the donor car spent a lot of time on gravel roads, picking up rock chips and the associated rust formed on the exposed steel. The stripping disc removed a lot of the rust off the surface along with the paint and filler/primer from a previous paint job. As the pics show, all the worst areas are pitted into the steel. If I were to use this door, I'd had to treat all this pitting with Ospho or something similar to neutralize any rust hiding in the pits. I also stripped the paint from a few of the larger dents, and even welded a few studs and pulled one of the larger dents closer to the surface.
I'm not sure about this door... The top half is nicer than the green door, but the bottom half is worse. As far as rust and wear it's in worse shape, it's just never been smashed. After watching a few youtube videos of people cutting and welding patch panels into doors, I'm thinking about using this door as a patch panel donor. Not sure I really want to do that, but the rust on the inside of the lower edge of this door is in rotten condition compared to the green door. Sure would be nice to just bolt on a nice door and call it good.
Drew, nice build thread, I read most of it and wondering what happened to your security, hadn't seen it since page 2 hope kitty is Ok?
while reading I started thinking I need your shipping address as I have been making a list up of a parts that I need to box up to refurbed by you like headlights, console, radio pod, steering column, calipers, booster, master ..... wondering what the turnaround time is?
my vote is stay TPI since you didn't go the easy way by cutting corners.
On your crack or split at rear/top of drivers window, my old 87 had almost a 1/2" split there due to chassis flex and after installing TDS Alston SFC when my car was painted and it was repaired, it never returned- go figure. I love what the Alston's did to stiffen it up but scrape when turning into a driveway hard to have your cake and eat it too
Drew, nice build thread, I read most of it and wondering what happened to your security, hadn't seen it since page 2 hope kitty is Ok?
Thank you! I just hope it's entertaining and educational. Yes, Raylene is fine. Unofficially, she's banned from the big garage. She has a habit of sharpening her claws on things she shouldn't, and she tends to climb everything, then when she finally does calm down, she has a really nasty habit of not exiting the garage when she's asked nicely. That said, yesterday she finally figured out what I'd done with her car. I went in to grab a full strength can of Dr Pepper to enjoy with dinner, and she squirt through the door behind me. She got to hang out for about an hour while I was eating, before she was let back out of the garage. She only stopped half way to the back door to make sure I was coming to give her treats.
Originally Posted by zman1969
while reading I started thinking i need tour shipping address as I have been making a list up of a parts that I need to box up to refurbed by you like headlights, console, radio pod, steering column, calipers, booster, master ..... wondering what the turnaround time is?
I wish I had the energy to take on projects. Part of me wants to patch up the rust in the Mustang, but I can't justify distracting myself from the Firebird long enough to weld some patches in the floors, rockers, trunk pan... But hopefully, after viewing the thread and seeing that it can be done, you'll be motivated to refurb some parts.
Originally Posted by zman1969
my vote is stay TPI since you didn't go the easy way by cutting corners.
On your crack or split at rear/top of drivers window, my old 87 had almost a 1/2" split there due to chassis flex and after installing TDS Alston SFC when my car was painted and it was repaired, it never returned- go figure. I love what the Alston's did to stiffen it up but scrape when turning into a driveway hard to have your cake and eat it too
TPI is probably the way it'll go. I have spent so much time planning that swap, and collecting the parts, it'd be silly not to go TPI. I just worry that I'll be disappointed later due to TPI's limitations. After all, the Firebird is supposed to be replacing the Mustang as the 'go crazy' project car, and the Mustang is "peppy". The Firebird needs to run 12's to be a good substitute. I've got a back-up plan, but I'd rather it had power on demand without relying on the cheat.
I've got the roof/quarter panel cracks on my Formula too. Been that way since 1999, and they haven't gotten worse. I put Alston SFCs on it in 2000, and it's stiff as a board. There's another set of Alston SFCs in the attic, but they were intended to go on the 87 Iroc. The Alstons are a bit of a problem with most of the T56 crossmembers too, since the crossmembers extend back further, and the Alstons connect to the subframe in the same area.
SFCs are definitely in the plan for the Green Bird, I just haven't decided which ones I like. I'm planning on running stock style dual cats, and it seems like most of the other brands may interfere with the exhaust. I'll have to make a decision before too much longer, since I want to get SFCs installed before I refinish the floor pans.
12/6 Progress Report -
Spent a few minutes tinkering with the spare door. Stripped a bit more paint and surface rust before deciding that I really didn't want to cover everything in the garage with bright red paint. Flipped the door over to get a refreshed look at the rust.
The rust is pretty bad in the lap joint seam. It got in under the sealer and just corroded the hell out of the door. Much of the folded over door skin is rotted away, the inner shell of the door is also pitted and has a few thin spots and holes. I'd have to cut away the lower part of the door skin, and weld in new metal. The door shell would need to have the compromised steel cut away, and a patch welded in. I'm still toying with the idea of cutting a patch from this door.
With little thanks to the Harbor Freight Cold-Knife, the top, and sides of the windshield are now free from the body. I was able to cut most of the urethane from the inside with a utility knife, then finished the job with the HF tool. To be completely honest, the HF windshield knife is roughly equivalent to the toy tools at Walmart for little kids. It LOOKS about like the real thing, but it is completely inadequate for the job on a 'modern'-ish car. The doofy thing is assembled backwards right out of the package. The blade comes about as sharp as the plastic Kid-Safe scissors we had in kindergarten. Once the pull handle is bolted to the right side of the blade, and the blade is reprofiled and sharpened, the blade bends like wet pasta the first time you go to use it in anger.
Can't really say how many times I had to stop, wiggle the stupid thing free, straighten the blade, sharpen the cutting edges, and go back to finishing the cut I'd mostly completed already with a utility knife. Some HF tools are marginal quality, but will last long enough to do a job. Some are corny as heck, but defy all odds and work as well as the consumer grade crap at the hardware and big box stores. Then there are tools like this, that are about as useful as a solar powered flashlight.
Not much else to tell... Cleaned up a bit more in the engine compartment, and sanded a few runs in the epoxy. Had a few spots with flash rust, where I'd sanded runs back in July and didn't get them recoated, so they got sanded back to clean steel. I've got some areas in the cowl that are a bit crusty still. Been in there several times removing old seam sealer, sanding and treating rust, etc but it's not exactly the easiest part of the car to work with. No easy way to prime the bare areas when you're reaching into a hole barely large enough for your forearm. My workaround was to paint the worst areas with a brush to apply the epoxy where it couldn't be sprayed. Of course that only gets you so far, before avoiding wet paint means doing an area, waiting for the epoxy to cure, then working another area. Might be able to get the areas that are left with Eastwood's rattle-can epoxy, if not I'll go in with a brush again. A bit more prep needs to be done under the front frame rails and rad support, and they'll be ready for epoxy.
Maybe we'll get a warm day and I'll be able to roll it outside and spray some more epoxy...
I'm thinking the windshield was probably contributing to the water leaks. I've got about half the urethane left to cut away, but I've already found some nasty pitting under the windshield. Glad I pulled it when I did.
Wow, Great job so far. I'm glad my 91 RS gave you some good parts. My iroc is mostly painted aside from a few parts. I bought a 305 TPI engine and wiring harness. Hoping to have that in the car by the end of winter
Wow, Great job so far. I'm glad my 91 RS gave you some good parts. My iroc is mostly painted aside from a few parts. I bought a 305 TPI engine and wiring harness. Hoping to have that in the car by the end of winter
Hey! That turned out really nice! It really looks the part, and the paint looks outstanding. If my refinish work comes out half that nice, I'll be absolutely thrilled!
After a short break, I got back after it and finished cutting away the old urethane. Then I went over the flange with a wire brush in the grinder, and cleaned up the mess with paper towels and Acetone. Doesn't look too bad with all the old adhesive removed, but there are some rough spots I'll need to address.
The driver's side had a few spots where the rust had gotten completely under the urethane, which I'm guessing just about had to be leaking water into the interior. Pretty much all four corners of the windshield are rusty and pitted, but fortunately no holes.
The driver's lower corner has some pretty heavy pitting. I'll get in here with the power tools and strip as much of the rust off the surface as possible, Ospho the pits, epoxy prime, then probably a bit of filler to smooth things out.
Driver's upper corner is about the same. Much of the rust on the surface came right off with the wire brush, but the pitting will need attention.
Across the top had a little surface rust, but overall it cleaned up pretty nice.
Another crusty corner...
I'm confident that I won't have to weld in any new metal around the windshield, but if it'd been left alone a few more years exposed to the elements, it probably would have required a lot more intensive repair. Getting ever closer to being ready to spray more epoxy. More cleaning, prep work, and so on to do.
From counting the 'rings' it looks like the car has only had two coats of paint. Just a bit of a shame the last coat is so weathered, and by the time I strip the areas that really need it, I might as well take the entire car back to square one.
Although it's risky (in more ways than one) if you aren't careful with it, I've found that Muriatic acid works very well for rust removal on small parts, recessed areas or pitted areas.
Although it's risky (in more ways than one) if you aren't careful with it, I've found that Muriatic acid works very well for rust removal on small parts, recessed areas or pitted areas.
Thanks for the suggestion. So far I've been pretty satisfied with Ospho. It's a predominately Phosphoric Acid solution. I'm trying to be careful about not using too much acid, since I've read too many horror stories about how it has to be neutralized to prevent later paint from reacting poorly. Still, for the pits I figure something has to be done to keep the rust from coming back.
Moving on...
After going over the rusty areas around the windshield opening with the wire brush in the grinder, I went out yesterday and applied Ospho to the bad spots. First go round was just applying the Ospho with a brush to the trouble areas, and letting it work. I cleaned up around the garage and occasionally checked on the progress, and applied additional Ospho to keep the treated areas wet. After about an hour, I let the Ospho sit undisturbed for a couple hours, then went back over the areas with a red Scotchbrite and more Ospho. This churned up quite a bit of rusty brown crap mixed in with the acid. After scrubbing all the areas with the Scotchbrite, I went back with water and paper towels and cleaned up all the brown garbage. I used plenty of water, which should in theory neutralize any residual Ospho. Next I went over the entire windshield channel with Windex, and then again with Acetone to clean up the mess and evaporate any remaining water. No pics of this process, since there really wasn't much to see.
After sitting overnight, everything was good and dry. I broke out the grinder with the wire wheel again and started going over the areas that had been treated. A few of the spot welds across the top were a bit sharp, and there were some rough crusty spots, so I also went over the worst areas with a 100 grit sanding pad on the angle grinder, and several Roloc discs, to smooth things out and scrub away any scale. The scrubbing didn't bring up any orange dust, so it appears the Ospho did it's job of converting the rust. Often the top layer of rust will be converted and blackened, but when sanded the rust underneath is revealed.
After thoroughly scouring all the trouble areas, I went over the entire channel again with Windex and Acetone to clean up any garbage. The result is that all of the pitted areas have been cleaned. There's still some discoloration, but I think it's pretty good for as rusty as it was. I can't see these areas getting any better.
I've been slacking the past few days. Shirking my commitment to moving the project along, and spending less time in the garage.
Remember the soft dent in the upper Driver's quarter panel?
Pic blatantly copied from post 102 further up this page...
I stuck a few studs to it, and Stud Levered them carefully to coerce the metal closer to it's original contour. It's still a bit off, but it's closer... I'd say it's ready for filler.
The urge to sand some of the offending paint, proved too great to ignore. Just for the hell of it, I block sanded much of the sail panel with 80 grit down to mostly bare steel. I wanted to see how much of a pain it would be to hand sand the old paint vs risking warping steel or taking too much off with power tools. In my dreams, I would have a more suitable compressor by this point, and I'd be removing paint with a DA... But since I'd need to build an enclosure onto the garage to house a real compressor, and I've been lazy, I just haven't taken the plunge.
After block sanding the upper quarter panel, and most of what remained of the driver's rocker panel, I'm fairly certain I need to get serious about upgrading the compressor, before sanding the rest of the car.
Shifting gears...
I needed to get the clutch master doubler matched to the firewall, so I can get it spot welded in place. I'd fabbed the doubler, and cut the holes in the firewall independently, which led to a minor mismatch. The holes in the firewall, doubler, and clutch master all need to be aligned, and I'd mostly been using templates based on photos resized to match the U-bolt. This approach sorta worked, but when all three sets of holes were stacked, things were a bit tight.
After opening up one of the holes in the plate, everything fit okay. Not sure why I opened the hole, because the direction I opened the hole seems excessive now.
May need to open the oval cutout in the firewall a bit, it's tighter than it needs to be, and it's a little tight when threading the clutch master into place. I don't know, I would like the holes in the firewall and the doubler to be closer to how GM would have done it, but it should be close enough to work fine. Once everything is in place, it'll look like it came that way.
Once I had the doubler plate fitted, I drew an outline on the firewall so that I can locate the doubler while I weld it in place. Now just to figure out the sequence of epoxy, weld through primer, and welding the doubler, so that everything is sealed and the plate is joined to the firewall to prevent it from flexing.
Not much else happening lately. I did spent a few hours of the last week sanding the bottom of the front frame rails, and the bottom of the rad support that haven't been epoxied yet. Touched the passenger's front wheel well a bit too. It'll be nice to finally have the front ready to seal. Scratch that off my to-do list and move onto the rear underbody, then the floor pans... I need a tired smiley.
Stripped the footprint under the clutch master doubler, down to bare steel. Taped it off and sprayed Weld-thru primer.
Swiss-Cheese'd the doubler for future plug welds to the firewall, cleaned/deburred and sprayed the backside with Weld-thru primer. Most of this is over previous epoxy, this is just to help preserve any areas that I may not be able to reach with epoxy later.
Since I am a glutton for punishment, I decided that the tiny pinholes in the edge of the toe board would forever haunt me if I didn't fix them right. Step 1 was to cut away the minimal steel to gain access to the area.
Then I made the first of several templates of the area to be repaired. Not quite tall enough to cover the damaged area.
That's more like it...
A little oversize, but that'll do.
A paper pattern...
Transferred over to a scrap of Kleenex box...
Both patterns representing what will eventually be patch panels. Because this piece originally had a few compound bends, I'll just fire up the english wheel and planishing hammer... Or not, because I don't have sponsors equipping my fab shop. So I could either cut pie sections and bend the patch, then weld the pie sections, or I could use one piece of steel for the flange, and another for the flat of the toe board, then weld the two together... Chances are good I'll weld up the patch section from two or more pieces. With my patterns made, I can make copies and try different approaches to fabricating the patch piece I need.
Next up, I need to crank up K-Billy's Super Sounds of the 70's and go after the Mustang fender with my Steeler's Wheel aviation sheers...
In retrospect, the bit of metal I removed around the pin holes to make room to make my templates, was solid enough I probably could and should have just welded up the pin holes, and slathered the whole mess in seam sealer like GM would have. But of course, I really couldn't tell if the steel was paper thin or solid before cutting into it. We'll just have to wait and see if I should have left well enough alone.
While I'm welding in the patch, or welding the patch together, I'll try to get the clutch master doubler stuck to the firewall... Then I can continue on with scuffing and prepping the foot well for epoxy. Kicking around how I want to approach the shifter opening in the trans tunnel also. I can either educated guess where the opening needs to be, and cut it now-ish, so I can seal it up with epoxy while I'm doing the rest of the body work, or I can wait until 2027 when I'm putting the drivetrain back in, and cut it to actually fit the trans, then redo the body work to the trans at that point. I suppose there's something to be said for doing the mechanical portion before the body work, but I'm doing this project backwards by design, so I get to work out these fun chicken or egg quandaries. Fortunately there's enough low hanging fruit on the to-do list that I can keep busy while I procrastinate, I mean figure out how I want to handle it...
Looking good man! Way beyond my expertise on patch panels, although I did do a decent job making a replacement battery tray for my 82 several years ago. Bought some sheet metal, cut it out rough, laid it in there and beat it to shape with a body hammer, trimmed it, hit it with weld primer, then tacked it in, sealed it and painted it. It's a little wavy with beat marks, but it can't be seen unless you pull the battery out and it does it's job! It was the first and last patch panel I ever made!
I'm really not a fan of working with metal, or making patch panels... I just really don't like rust.
So I'm pretty sure I probably should have just left well enough alone with the missing bit of the toe board. Worked on it a bit tonight. The toe board is part of the 4 panel ****-sandwich GM spot welded together in this corner of the car. It's trapped between the floor pan, and the inner kick panel, meaning to get at the bad part of the toe board, I have to get the floor pan out of the way. That means peeling off two layers of the sandwich.
Visual aid, to hopefully explain about how the panels come together and overlap.
It wasn't fun, but I did get the bit of toe board between the floor pan flange and the kick panel removed. I just might have damaged the floor pan enough in the process that I might be further ahead to replace a bit of it too. Probably should have just hidden it under seam sealer and moved on.
No pics for now. Maybe I'll share a few of the process after it rounds the corner and starts looking like a repaired floor. Right now it's the project car version of a slasher movie.
Here you go Drew another parts car and in your state 92 Bird
Haha, just barely. If someone sneezes it'll be on the other side of the boarder in Missouri. It's almost as far from where I am to that car, as it was from here to Colby where the green car came from.
On the map, the red X is where I'm at, purple dot is that red Firebird. Colby is all the way out west, where the interstate suddenly jags up and flattens back out again. Colby is at the top of the jag.
Hopefully that photo illustrates how these panels interact a bit better than my coke fueled description... You can see here that I've cut away about a 2x2" chunk of the floor pan, to expose the inner kick panel, and the toe board. I've already removed the remaining bit of toe board that was between the floor pan flange and the inner kick panel, and I've started cleaning up the mess and making my patterns to fab the patch pieces.
I figured it'd be easiest to work with this repair if I just went ahead and cut that piece out of the floor for now. That way I can repair the toe board, and get it welded to the inner kick panel and then I can put the piece of the floor pan back in. It sticks in my craw a bit, cutting a hole where I repaired a hole, but really I should have probably done this way back when I did the rest of the repair, and it would have saved me a bit of headache.
Last night I did start cutting out the first piece of steel to replace the rotted away flange on the toe board. However after I got the MK1 piece cut, I didn't like how it was lining up. So I went back to the drawing board and made another pattern. It appears I got the angle off a little, and the new pattern fits better. Now to see if I can cut down my MK1 patch, of if I need to go back to the Mustang fender for another pound of flesh. Tis no big deal if the first patch ends up as scrap, I've got a lot of scrap fender left to cut up.
Of course the jagged edges of the missing steel will all be cleaned up, before I weld everything back up, and eventually it'll all be ground down and it'll only be a little obvious I was every into the body this deep. That stupid bit of missing metal was just pissing me off.
Haha, just barely. If someone sneezes it'll be on the other side of the boarder in Missouri. It's almost as far from where I am to that car, as it was from here to Colby where the green car came from.
On the map, the red X is where I'm at, purple dot is that red Firebird. Colby is all the way out west, where the interstate suddenly jags up and flattens back out again. Colby is at the top of the jag.
Dude! that's not far, I did Dallas to Hays and back to pickup a rear end was home by 730 that evening but I wont say when I got on the road
If there were interstate highways that followed 'as the crow flies', it wouldn't be too bad. It's the drive to KC and then turn South, that discourages me. Either that or drive, turn, drive, turn, drive, turn around, go back, find "Bob's Road", turn, drive. Also can't forget this is Kansas, if you stray too far off the beaten path, you fall into 1980's TV style small towns run by corrupt officials that need a visit from the A-team, or Airwolf, or maybe even Jessica Fletcher! Or worse, you take a wrong turn at Deliverance Drive and get cornholed by some murderous radioactive *******. I'm a city boy, know I can't swim, so I keep my *** out the pool!
Really though, I think I'm at a bit of a stage where I just need to try to stay focused, ignore distractions, and keep moving toward the goal. If I stopped to go pillage parts, or a donor car, I might be inclined to step away from the project for a few days, that could turn into weeks, or months of inactivity. It'd have to be something pretty incredible to pry me away from the joys of rusted sheetmetal. I don't dare skip a day without doing a little work on the car, not now anyway, because little things like seeing the garage floor through that hole are just damn discouraging.
I wonder if the driver's side cupholder is there somewhere, maybe hiding out in the back seat, and not destroyed like the driver's door panel... Better to assume it's busted.
Oh Yeah I was just teasing ya and I was wondering about drvr door panel them went back and looked- UGH! now I see it there I think the cup holder may be there on right edge of panel near the trunk tub? sad deal is this car lost its nose at some point and seems like non aero types are hard to find!
well I think alot of people get a play toy like these and when they break they don't know how to fix it and they just sit, like the Formula I got, somebody fixed it up then sold it to someone without skills. how many cars do you see torn down then sold in pieces? I've bought several cars this way, my 69 Firebird 69 Z28 2 Novas heck even my 15 Camaro was stolen and stripped
I think what I like the most about this build is the quality of the metal work. Might have to contact you in a few years for help with some t-top roof conversions. I want to put CNC ttops on my red 86, and sliver Iroc. I have a OEM roof that I now do not need.
Planning to repaint the original color. Debating looking for a green that's close, with a bit more pop. Seems that the stock green can look a little flat or black in certain conditions.
Planning to repaint the original color. Debating looking for a green that's close, with a bit more pop. Seems that the stock green can look a little flat or black in certain conditions.
My favorite green is Fathom green I had my first 69 Z28 I had was fathom very dark at night looks black
I just picked up basically the same car, same color, but the snowflake rims are on mine.
I hope that mine, being a one owner car that has been neglected and sitting for some time, won't be too difficult to get up and running/drive-able. Mine is still a project for sure, and has the clear coat paint fade issues. The biggest benefit, is that it has been in Phoenix, it's entire life!
I don't plan the level of rebuild you are, at least not for years down the road.
Last edited by AJCrader; 01-03-2019 at 09:27 AM.
Reason: Forgot picture
Drew were still watching along and I actually have a few questions about the 91-92s and other 3rd gens
1) Is the leather wheel pictured actually leather? Somewhere I have a good base 3 spoke wheel that I have to locate but I do like leather wheels (in good condition of course) I think I'm gonna give up on the A/Bag OE since most I see the bags are shrinking and then look horrible.
2) what did you paint your column with? - SEM trim or ? It looks really nice!
3) are the front bumper cover and the "gills" different on fog light cars and non? It looks like they are
4) To the idiots that dont know where to put the lift -fender bulge issues when you get the pinch weld fixed as you did will the fender go back to normal gaps or need much persuading to fit right again? both sides on mine are bad, was hoping to save them
5) does Raylene have a friend we don't know about? or met yet.
Yes, the 3-spoke wheel in my picture is a true leather wrapped wheel. There are three spoke Firebird steering wheels that are vinyl with molded details to look like leather, but they're pretty easy to pick out. All the airbag wheels warp around the horn buttons to varying degrees. Might consider a 4th gen Firebird steering wheel if you want to keep the airbag, but I've never liked the idea of airbags anyway.
I'm pretty sure I painted the column with Krylon Fusion. Not sure on the exact black I used, but it was something like a semi-gloss. It works OK. I had some issues with the supplied nozzle spitting, which could have been just cans that had sat too long on the shelf. Ended up stealing the blue nozzle from a can of Duplicolor Engine Enamel to get a much finer spray pattern. SEM, or Duplicolor trim paint would probably work as well.
Yes, 91-92 the front bumper covers are different for cars with gfx and foglights vs those without. The grill inserts on the non-GFX Formula style bumper can be removed, which opens up the fog light cavity, but none of the cars without gfx had fog lights, and with the grills removed there are a few exposed holes. Seen a few examples where people have trimmed the grills back, but fog lights are a bit of a gee whiz feature anyway.
Depends how mangled the fenders and mounting tabs are. Most of the time, they can be bent back and made to line up pretty decent. I got the fenders on this car to line up pretty well before I pulled the body panels, and they were pretty mangled.
Sort of... That's Little Bill. He was a stray that my sister rescued, and my brother-in-law's grandmother adopted. She went into retirement housing, and Bill defaulted back to my sister. My nephew is allergic, and I'm a soft hearted sucker, so I took in Not-so-Little-Bill. Raylene spends 98% of the time outside, and Bill is a pampered house cat, so I figured they should get along fine. Bill is fine with Raylene, but she hasn't warmed up to him yet. But it's fine, she keeps to her areas, and Bill is usually right next to me if I'm inside and not moving around too much.
my 87 had the vinyl steering wheel that tried to look like leather and I think I have a good spare one somewhere but I'd like to find a nice leather one
Bill looks like the cat we had when I was a kid, we dont have any pets now but I would like another cat but the wife cant stand them
I have another question, will my 90 rear impact bar and cushion will work with the 91-92 rear cover? like below
I have another question, will my 90 rear impact bar and cushion will work with the 91-92 rear cover?
My gut instinct was that it shouldn't matter. However, I wouldn't want to say one way or the other without being sure, so I looked it up... The part numbers for both the impact bar and the honeycomb are different. I'm not sure why they're different, but the good book works in mysterious ways.
Just mocking up the intake manifold for the Green Destiny...
Making good headway knocking out the projects around the house that need to be addressed. Figure put in the time now while it's Spring and not nearly as hot out as it'll be later this Summer. Better than waiting until August when someone interrupts me while I'm trying to work on the car.
Still grinding and block sanding the cruddy paint down to bare steel. Debating if I want to really go bare steel, or just far enough that I don't have to worry about old paint peeling and spoiling the new finish.
Plotting to upgrade the shop air compressor to something that will drive the tools I plan to use during the refinish process.
12-02-2018, 02:06 AM
hard to have your cake and eat it too 
