Tuning with the EBL Hey can we start a thread for EBL tuning. The EBL thread is grown rather large and was pre release. All of us that are using the EBL could share our results and tweaks. RBob would have a place to vist on his own time and help those that need advice using his EBL. This way he is not having to deal with the same issues as others start using the EBL. Is this allowed by a junior member to recommend? (MODS) I could sure use it. :thanks: |
Hope this is OK I am getting a code 23 Do I need to change a option word in my bin or is there something else that could be causing this. My engine does not have a IAT sensor. Do I need to hook one up? Thanks OK I turned off the (TPS21 - throttle position sensor failure, high) and the (IAT23 - intake air temperature failure, low) NO SES now. Is this something I will need later on? |
Originally Posted by sbcrules I am getting a code 23 Do I need to change a option word in my bin or is there something else that could be causing this. My engine does not have a IAT sensor. Do I need to hook one up? Thanks As far as the thread, seems like a good idea to me. I will be glad to help out as I have most of the functionality used in mine. VAFPR, 2-Bar, Cooling Fans, Smart A/C, Shift Light, Valet mode, PE output (use it to control the EGR solenoid which is hooked to the Air Cleaner heat valve), Lean Cruise, etc. |
IAT on its way Thanks I will hook one up. I did turn off the error flags. I just started tuning this and would like to get it in the ballpark before I go on to adding all the other options. My next purchase is a wide band. Any sugestions on where and what to buy? Thanks Data Logging (WUD) on the way to work this morning, my fuel mileage must have doubled from what I was running before installing the EBL:) Should be a very good return on my investment.:) |
Originally Posted by sbcrules Thanks I will hook one up. I did turn off the error flags. I just started tuning this and would like to get it in the ballpark before I go on to adding all the other options. My next purchase is a wide band. Any sugestions on where and what to buy? Thanks Data Logging (WUD) on the way to work this morning, my fuel mileage must have doubled from what I was running before installing the EBL:) Should be a very good return on my investment.:) |
There's a new WB coming to market in the next few weeks, I'd suggest waiting to see if it's as good as it looks...... |
Does that mean a new WBO2 sensor, WBO2 controller, or both? Thanks, Junk |
Originally Posted by junkcltr Does that mean a new WBO2 sensor, WBO2 controller, or both? |
Thanks, Good info. I can only hope the Megeaquirt PWC WBO2 is getting near the release stages. I am curious how far off my NTK L1H1 is now from running the engine rich for a while. I think it is about time to get another WBO2 & controller to check how far it may have drifted |
Question.. Hopefully going to try my first startup on the EBL tomorrow, have edited the bin, etc, but wonder about the IAT. I do not have one right now, and want to add one. What application can i use to buy the correct one? 199? 5.7l TG? Any specific car to use at the local parts emporium to obtain the correct one would be appreciated. Thanks. |
For anyone not running an IAT/MAT sensor, here are the changes to the supplied BIN that should be made: Disable IAT Malfunction reporting (uncheck the flag): Malf Flags - 12 thru 24 IAT23 - intake air temperature failure, low Malf Flags - 25 thru 42 IAT25 - intake air temperature failure, high The 'Blend Factor for CTS and IAT' table should be set up for all CTS. To do this set all entries to 100%. It is better to run an IAT sensor. On the other hand there are successful installations that do not run one. What an IAT allows is for a varience in air temperature to be compensated for. This also depends upon the amount of preheat and manifold heat that is present. A cold-cold intake will benefit more from an IAT then one that has pre-heat and a manifold water jacket. RBob. |
Not quite tuning but I was wondering for all the stuff you disabled can I just yank the pins? I won't be using any of the stuff you added, and after talking to my mechanic I'm ditching the EVAP stuff so I have no use for pins A3, A4, C1, C2, and C8. Also my A/C doesn't work because the compressor does not turn on, I was wondering if this is just programming issue or if I need C2 "A/C Compressor Control" which I believe is now "Fan" I hooked up my original ECM and sure enough the A/C compressor kicked right on. I've got one of Chris's bins so I'll try using his A/C setup but I thought I'd ask anyways since it isn't a guaranteed thing. |
Originally Posted by TierAngst Not quite tuning but I was wondering for all the stuff you disabled can I just yank the pins? I won't be using any of the stuff you added, and after talking to my mechanic I'm ditching the EVAP stuff so I have no use for pins A3, A4, C1, C2, and C8. Also my A/C doesn't work because the compressor does not turn on, I was wondering if this is just programming issue or if I need C2 "A/C Compressor Control" which I believe is now "Fan" I hooked up my original ECM and sure enough the A/C compressor kicked right on. I've got one of Chris's bins so I'll try using his A/C setup but I thought I'd ask anyways since it isn't a guaranteed thing. For the A/C you may need to move a pin. I'm going to look at it tonight and post back here. As for the A/C signal to the ECM (pin B8), is this from the dash switch? RBob. |
IAT, does anybody know what kind to get. Like from what year/engine/model car?? Or does somebody just have a part number, maybe from standard, ac delco, etc?? Gonna hook it up this weekend and wanna get it installed in its entiredy before I start tuning, except for the N20. Thanx. :thanks: |
Originally Posted by liquidh8 IAT, does anybody know what kind to get. Like from what year/engine/model car?? Or does somebody just have a part number, maybe from standard, ac delco, etc?? Gonna hook it up this weekend and wanna get it installed in its entiredy before I start tuning, except for the N20. Thanx. One being a *clip-in*, then the pipe thread type (3/8" pipe if I recall correctly). As far as the thread in ones, there's a plastic one, then an exposed sensor, and then one within a *bulb*. Depending on location, you can even get by with a coolant sensor, thou the response maybe sluggish. The 86-87 Buick Grand Nationals, Vin 7, use the pipe threaded, exposed sensor version.. |
Originally Posted by Grumpy There are several versions... One being a *clip-in*, then the pipe thread type (3/8" pipe if I recall correctly). As far as the thread in ones, there's a plastic one, then an exposed sensor, and then one within a *bulb*. Depending on location, you can even get by with a coolant sensor, thou the response maybe sluggish. The 86-87 Buick Grand Nationals, Vin 7, use the pipe threaded, exposed sensor version.. My IAT sensor is a coolant temp sensor that I had laying around from the original engine that I robbed the TBI off of. Mine is a 3 wire variety that I mounted on the intake and runs both the ECM and the temperature gauge. I had a fan switch in the original gauge sending unit hole in the head. The original GM heated air cleaner setup stays at a fairly consistent temperature, unless I am at WOT and the measurement is pretty close. |
Originally Posted by Grumpy There's a new WB coming to market in the next few weeks, I'd suggest waiting to see if it's as good as it looks...... UPS just dropped off my ZT-2 :) |
"TCC - Enable TCC calculations (0 = stick trans). Reset bit is a manual transmission is in use" I can not for the life of me find this in there that is the last thing I need to set in the way of TCC. |
Originally Posted by RBob For the A/C you may need to move a pin. I'm going to look at it tonight and post back here. As for the A/C signal to the ECM (pin B8), is this from the dash switch? RBob. The A2 pin is open on the harness connector. Pop the pin out of C2 (Grn w/wht stripe) and place it into pin location A2. That should do it. RBob. |
Originally Posted by TierAngst "TCC - Enable TCC calculations (0 = stick trans). Reset bit is a manual transmission is in use" I can not for the life of me find this in there that is the last thing I need to set in the way of TCC. RBob. |
Well I think I got the A/C figured out, have also got the TCC solved and after my third serial converter I finally got one that works!!! Now time to learn how to tune :) First question: for the auto VE should I keep it at the WUD's stock 75-110 Min/Max CTS? What is this? |
Love the ebl. Just wondering what to do with the AE. I think that is screwed up. When i stab the throttle is breakes up real bad for a few seconds then goes. I'm just not sure what all the timers and all do. Though the disk comes with explanations, I'm just not sure of the relation to how the car is running. Side note, RBOB, the % change for the BPC, How is that number adjusted. Is it the difference in % from vacuum pressure to no. ex., my FP @ 20 KPA is 15, but @ 100 KPA is 27, that is about 45%. Do I enter that value in there. Also, does the AE mess up the VE learn?? And a final thing, should I disable the lean cruise while trying to learn the VE? orry for all the questions, I'm just super excited that this thing runs so much better, but needs more tuning to be spot on.:thanks: |
Originally Posted by liquidh8 Just wondering what to do with the AE. I think that is screwed up. When i stab the throttle is breakes up real bad for a few seconds then goes. I'm just not sure what all the timers and all do. Though the disk comes with explanations, I'm just not sure of the relation to how the car is running. ie the TPS and MAP AE functions, rather then *finer points*. *Usually* it's a matter of getting things at least close and then moving onto the finer points. Not to mention every car is different so what may work neat on one car just doesn't on another. Not to mention you might want to just ramp the timing down faster from *cruise* to WOT timing. |
I was thinking about the timing too, I used the table that came with the EBL, just keep lowering it at the higher MAP, cause of the knock counts. But I might try using the spark table from the old bin, and just filling in the higher rpm value's. I am also not sure which way to go with the AE, If I look at the o2 voltage when I stab the gas, it goes clean to .850 volts or so. But that is with the narrow band. Has anybody else had to raise the AE higher?, and how much?? BTW, running the vortec heads and still trying to get a better timing table on it. Thanx all :thanks: |
Originally Posted by TierAngst Well I think I got the A/C figured out, have also got the TCC solved and after my third serial converter I finally got one that works!!! Now it's time to learn how to tune :) First question: for the auto VE should I keep it at the WUD's stock 75-110 Min/Max CTS? What is this? The 75-110 Min/Max CTS is a window that the engine coolant temperature needs to be within for VE Learn to take place. If the engine typcially runs within this range I would leave it. The purpose is so VE Learning takes place at the normal engine operating temperature. Closed loop can be entered at a much lower temperature. And if using a WB for VE Learn, these values define the range in which to learn. These values alllow that range to be narrowed. RBob. |
Originally Posted by liquidh8 Love the ebl. Just wondering what to do with the AE. I think that is screwed up. When i stab the throttle is breakes up real bad for a few seconds then goes. I'm just not sure what all the timers and all do. Though the disk comes with explanations, I'm just not sure of the relation to how the car is running. Side note, RBOB, the % change for the BPC, How is that number adjusted. Is it the difference in % from vacuum pressure to no. ex., my FP @ 20 KPA is 15, but @ 100 KPA is 27, that is about 45%. Do I enter that value in there. Also, does the AE mess up the VE learn?? And a final thing, should I disable the lean cruise while trying to learn the VE? orry for all the questions, I'm just super excited that this thing runs so much better, but needs more tuning to be spot on.:thanks: The %BPC change is a filter value. The required value is relative to the response time of the fuel pressure regulator. The best thing to do is adjust the value and feel how the engine responds. First get the VE tables in line, then the AE roughed in. The reason I say the %BPC filter needs to be done by feel is that I have yet to see any published data on fuel pressure regulator response times. I do know that they respond slower (much so) then the ECM. I added the filter to slow the ECM down to enable it to be matched to the FPR. Lean cruise and VE Learn: if using BLM learn then disable the lean cruise. If using a WB for learn then the lean cruise can be left in place. Thank you and your welcome, RBob. |
Originally Posted by RBob Lean cruise and VE Learn: if using BLM learn then disable the lean cruise. If using a WB for learn then the lean cruise can be left in place. Thank you and your welcome, RBob. Does it automatically choose a BLM for you or is there somewhere else in the bin file that you have to choose a target BLM and it tries to match it? To turn off lean cruise (hiwy codes right?) do I just raise the min mph to something high or is there a better way to turn it off? ---------- http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...28_53_full.jpg Does this chart look nuts to anyone else? I'm not really familiar with this stuff but that really doesn't look healthy. What should I be targeting to fix it? I'm going to delve into this stuff tomorrow and hopefully have a much better understanding of it, but I'm sure I'll have a million more questions. |
Originally Posted by TierAngst Does it automatically choose a BLM for you or is there somewhere else in the bin file that you have to choose a target BLM and it tries to match it? To turn off lean cruise (hiwy codes right?) do I just raise the min mph to something high or is there a better way to turn it off? ---------- http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...28_53_full.jpg Does this chart look nuts to anyone else? I'm not really familiar with this stuff but that really doesn't look healthy. What should I be targeting to fix it? I'm going to delve into this stuff tomorrow and hopefully have a much better understanding of it, but I'm sure I'll have a million more questions. Easiest method to disable lean cruise is to set the minimum MPH to a high value such as 200 or so. As for the knock retard display, yes, that is a lot of knock. Can you hear any knock? Wondering if it is false knock from a bad accessory or exhaust pipe hitting the frame. RBob. |
I've got something that sounds like it rattles when the TC locks up at low a low RPM, I really don't hear the engine knock... when I revv it in park/neutral it sounds like all muscle :) |
?? DC% ?? I obviously have more tuning to do, but I have a few questions. I have a partial log export i can post here if i need to, but .. I am seeing some DC% of over 100%. How is that possible? Does that mean it is carrying over some PW from one cycle to the next? or is anything over 100% mean the injectors are static? Also, my old application ran in asynch all the time. in the EBL file i seen 5 entries relating to asych/synch, but.. does it run in synch mode most of the time? is that what the sPW entry is referring to? Heres a partial xport, (if i do not mess the table up). Code: RUNTIME RPM MPH MAP VE% TPS CTS IAT I/C O2 G/S SA sPW DC% aPW AeDeIdPeDcClLnTc Cl INT BLM IAC AFR WB dTPS tpsAE dMAP mapAE aePW Also, the injectors seem to sound different, if thats possible. but could just be me.. :crazy: |
Originally Posted by TierAngst I've got something that sounds like it rattles when the TC locks up at low a low RPM, I really don't hear the engine knock... when I revv it in park/neutral it sounds like all muscle :) My recommendation is to have the distributor base timing set at 0 degrees. Also set this in the bin as the Initital timing. Then set up the EBL timing tables to match up with the one below. Use the 4800 RPM row for 4800 up to 6400. And the 30 MAP column out to 20 Kpa MAP. Watch the 35, 45, 55, and 65 KPa columns, they don't exist in the EBL spark table, so just skip them. Where the -9's are use 0. Here is the stock AYKC timing, adjusted for bias's and slope. These are the actual SA values in degrees. Note the -9 deg. areas, the max retard is set to -3.6 degrees. So that is the max negative timing that will be set, even though the SA table has more. Code: ;-------------------------------------------------------------------------- RBob. |
Awesome, thanks. I got that put in the SA Main and extended and the lean cruise turned off so now I'm going to go do some VE learn with the wud and will report back later. |
Originally Posted by 7Point4 I obviously have more tuning to do, but I have a few questions. I have a partial log export i can post here if i need to, but .. I am seeing some DC% of over 100%. How is that possible? Does that mean it is carrying over some PW from one cycle to the next? or is anything over 100% mean the injectors are static? Also, my old application ran in asynch all the time. in the EBL file i seen 5 entries relating to asych/synch, but.. does it run in synch mode most of the time? is that what the sPW entry is referring to? Heres a partial xport, (if i do not mess the table up). Thanks! Also, the injectors seem to sound different, if thats possible. but could just be me.. :crazy: The RPM is divided by 100. With 26.8 being 2680 RPM. The sPW (sync PW) being multiplied by 10. With 116.88 being 11.688 mSec. In the first row the AE PW is 4 mSec, in the second row it is 4.8 mSec (rounded). This is 38% and 48% of the total time available. Here is how to 'read' the AE information: dTPS The delta TPS% values used to look up the TPS AE contribution (shows where in table the tpsAE value is retrieved from). tpsAE The amount of AE fuel from the TPS AE table (in mSec) dMAP The delta MAP value (KPa) used to look up the MAP AE contribution mapAE The amount of AE fuel from the MAP AE table (in mSec) aePW Final AE fuel that is added to the sync PW. This value is the sum of the TPS and MAP AE, then modified by the coolant comp value and the RPM value (from those tables). The stock EBL BIN is setup to run in sync mode. It can be changed to run async all of the time. To do this set the low/high enter/exit PW values to large values (usually greater then 13 mSec). These are the Async transition Hi and Lo values in the Injector Terms area (INJ). RBob. |
Originally Posted by liquidh8 I was thinking about the timing too, I used the table that came with the EBL, just keep lowering it at the higher MAP, cause of the knock counts. But I might try using the spark table from the old bin, and just filling in the higher rpm value's. I am also not sure which way to go with the AE, If I look at the o2 voltage when I stab the gas, it goes clean to .850 volts or so. But that is with the narrow band. Has anybody else had to raise the AE higher?, and how much?? BTW, running the vortec heads and still trying to get a better timing table on it. Thanx all :thanks: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ark-table.html As for the AE, if the engine chugs a little then goes, it is too much AE. If you get a cut-out and/or pop then it is not enough AE. Can also look at the INTegrator during/after the period of AE. If it is dropping then too much AE, and if increasing then not enough. A slight increase in the INT along with good throttle response is the ideal situation. RBob. |
Fuel Table From 7747 When setting up a fuel table from the 7747 to EBl, can I use only the no1 table or must the #2 be added to it when entering? thanks, Val |
Originally Posted by Val Snyder When setting up a fuel table from the 7747 to EBl, can I use only the no1 table or must the #2 be added to it when entering? thanks, Val RBob. |
Originally Posted by RBob The stock EBL BIN is setup to run in sync mode. It can be changed to run async all of the time. To do this set the low/high enter/exit PW values to large values (usually greater then 13 mSec). These are the Async transition Hi and Lo values in the Injector Terms area (INJ). RBob. Hmm.. tried setting both values to 13000 (13 msec) and it would start and idle but just barely. It reported 0% DC and 0 PW at idle, and tapping the throttle would barely rev the engine, but still no pw or dc reported. ?? Thanks for your time!! |
rbob, thanx for the tip on the AE, going to log and look into that. As for the vortec spark table, there are a few tables posted, any Idea which on to use?? The one on the bottom?? I tried one of them but don't remember. Has anyone else tried the table with success?? Thanx all.:thanks: |
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Originally Posted by 7Point4 Hmm.. tried setting both values to 13000 (13 msec) and it would start and idle but just barely. It reported 0% DC and 0 PW at idle, and tapping the throttle would barely rev the engine, but still no pw or dc reported. ?? Thanks for your time!! To convert from a sync pulse to an async pulse the table called Async vs. RPM is used. This table needs to be set up according to the engine cylinder count. Not unusual for the conversion to not be perfect, but it should run better then what you are seeing. The async PW value should show up in the aPW column. RBob. |
Originally Posted by 7Point4 Hmm.. tried setting both values to 13000 (13 msec) and it would start and idle but just barely. It reported 0% DC and 0 PW at idle, and tapping the throttle would barely rev the engine, but still no pw or dc reported. ?? Thanks for your time!! Since then I haven't used async mode on modified engines. I'll let you know what I find. RBob. |
Originally Posted by Fast355 RBob. |
Originally Posted by RBob Has to be a trick question. I've looked at the log and other then being a little rich, all I see is a Van that just blew off an SUV. ;) RBob. Did it strike you weird that I am running 85 with only 35ish % TPS on what appeared to be level ground. Right after this, I blew his doors off. |
This tuning is addictive. I think I have done about all I can do until the Wide Band comes in. RBob this EBL is awesome. Each run I can feel it getting more responsive and the power band more defined, I wish I had access to a Dyno. so I work on my timing (vortecs) maybe the Wideband will help me out here. I tried some of the vortec SA tables posted in other threads but it still has a lot of counts around the 2800 RPM range (high map). I guess this could be a lean mixture causing this. Reading all the post and learning something new every day. Thanks: Small Block Chevy's RULE!! |
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Originally Posted by sbcrules This tuning is addictive. I think I have done about all I can do until the Wide Band comes in. RBob this EBL is awesome. Each run I can feel it getting more responsive and the power band more defined, I wish I had access to a Dyno. so I work on my timing (vortecs) maybe the Wideband will help me out here. I tried some of the vortec SA tables posted in other threads but it still has a lot of counts around the 2800 RPM range (high map). I guess this could be a lean mixture causing this. Reading all the post and learning something new every day. Thanks: Small Block Chevy's RULE!! |
fast, there isn't any warm spark bias with that right?? Using the ebl bin? I just modded a sa table and it kinda looks similar, gonna try it tomorrow on the way to work. Thanx, that may even work better on my engine than what I have.:thanks: |
BPW + Burst Wow! Quite the job on the XDF! Of course more questions, how does a BPW of 122 relate to INJ?What does the Nalpha affect? What does burst in the knock describe? No doubt there will be many more questions to come,Thank you for such a complete description of function, I just don't comprehend all of the functions,Great job, Thanks, Val |
Fast355; Where is your base timing set?:confused: |
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Originally Posted by sbcrules Fast355; Where is your base timing set?:confused: Check your email. Here is a screen shot of the timing advance on my engine @ WOT.d |
Originally Posted by Fast355 6* BTDC, but the EBL bin is set at 6*. They cancel for 0*. Check your email. Here is a screen shot of the timing advance on my engine @ WOT.d |
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