VATS question Recently went to start the car and I got nothing and security light stayed on with key on. after getting nowhere with it I came back hours later and the car cranks and fires like normal. Years ago my car (92 rs) would do this randomly and leave me stranded until I replaced many things ignition switch included. Car did fine up until yesterday. Im afraid I will likely have to change the switch again which I absolutely dread. Im curious though as to why the car will start hours later after getting nothing at first? Years ago I could always jump the car off each time and it would do fine for months sometimes years and randomly leave me stranded again. Ive been trying to figure this out for awhile just curious as to if anyone knows for sure why it intermentently fails to start when the lock system fails. |
Re: VATS question Could be an intermittent problem with the start relay. Remove the screws from the kick panel and keep a multimeter in the car to measure voltage output from the relay next time it happens. |
Re: VATS question Im assuming that relay is in the fuse block with the rest of them, I havent got the ole chilton manual out to look at them in some time. I wouldnt think the starter relay would cause the security light to stay on though would it? |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
(Post 6249380)
Could be an intermittent problem with the start relay. Remove the screws from the kick panel and keep a multimeter in the car to measure voltage output from the relay next time it happens. bottom of Post #2 is a image of the relay bypassed. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...pass-vats.html |
Re: VATS question oh ok so thats the relay he meant. Ill be honest as old as the car is I may just swap out multiple things that could cause this issue that I havent previously done. Im game for just about anything as long as I dont have to change that stupid lock cylinder again. The thought turns my stomach. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6249565)
Im game for just about anything as long as I dont have to change that stupid lock cylinder again. The thought turns my stomach. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...-rebuilds.html |
Re: VATS question I will check it out then when I get home from work. I done it once about 4-5 years ago so its a bit fuzzy. I remember trying to run that orange wire down the steering column was almost impossible for me to try and get it exactly the same route as the original wire was. |
Re: VATS question Do local parts places usually carry this starter enable relay? I checked some websites of local places here but did not see these on there. |
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Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
(Post 6249947)
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Re: VATS question The PASSkey module decides when to turn on the security light. I would study the troubleshooting guide in the GM service manual for when that condition occurs and follow your nose from there. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech-general-engine/613497-1988-firebird-service-manual.html |
Re: VATS question Oh wow thats alot of pages. I got a chilton manual but it seems like it never fully tells you what you need to know just bits and pieces. The Passkey module is it something that can still be purchased if needed? |
Re: VATS question The stuff you're interested in begins on page 1511. That service manual is probably the biggest gold mine you'll ever find on this forum. It took me many years to find it! |
Re: VATS question ^ +1 on that. Made figuring out the wiring for my LS1 swap much easier (among countless other things). It's so much more in depth than any Chilton or Haynes manual could ever be. Whoever took the time to scan, and put together that pdf needs a spot in the "Thirdgen Hall of Fame". |
Re: VATS question So maybe im blind or just stupid but I finally got around to pullinig the kick panel off and looking around and I dont see that relay anywhere. I pulled that black gooey pad off aswell and its just an empty pocket with access to what looks like the hinge bolts. Is there somewhere else these things are located? Theres something that kinda resembles it much further up in the dash that I cant reach. kinda up and behind the fuse panel. |
Re: VATS question https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...4494963fd.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...19b6fb4a3.jpegShould it not be in this general area? |
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Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6250136)
The Passkey module is it something that can still be purchased if needed? |
Re: VATS question I stumbled upon that post a few hours ago. I’ve looked around about as much as I can with the drivers underdash piece in place. I guess I’ll pull that off and see if I can get any higher. It seems odd if it’s that far up and every one else has it behind the kick panel. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
(Post 6250395)
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/chevrolet,1992,camaro,5.0l+v8,1035818,electrical-switch+&+relay,anti-theft+relay,3012 https://m.ebay.com/itm/RELAY-12-VOLT...pe!90011!US!-1 |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
(Post 6250416)
post #22 on this link. Looks as if it used a spdt relay 30/40 amp. https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...eft+relay,3012 https://m.ebay.com/itm/RELAY-12-VOLT...pe!90011!US!-1 |
Re: VATS question |
Re: VATS question I’m not seeing it in any of the pictures. Is there anything next to the flasher. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
(Post 6250503)
I’m not seeing it in any of the pictures. Is there anything next to the flasher. |
Re: VATS question Since the VATs light stays on at the time the engine won't start, you are wasting your time digging out the start relay and such. The issue is the VATs module isn't reading the key correctly. If the 'chip' contacts in the key are worn you could get another key made. Or do the resistor bypass method. RBob. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by RBob
(Post 6250579)
Since the VATs light stays on at the time the engine won't start, you are wasting your time digging out the start relay and such. The issue is the VATs module isn't reading the key correctly. If the 'chip' contacts in the key are worn you could get another key made. Or do the resistor bypass method. RBob. |
Re: VATS question Read the link that Tuned Performance gave you. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6250638)
dont think the contacts are worn I could be wrong though. This key is only 4 years old and the car doesnt get driven much. At this point Im kinda irritated that I cant find the relay because I know it has to be there somewhere and I already purchased a replacement for it just as its one of the many things Ill probly be changing out. Also I thought to do this resistor bypass method you must first locate the relay then add the resistors in somewhere in the wiring for it. Maybe Im mistaken on how that method works. https://farm1.staticflickr.com/962/4...3d660951_c.jpg Insert the key in the cylinder and take a resistance reading of the connector that comes from the steering column/ignition switch. If both readings are within spec of one of the resistance values then (at least VATS wise) the problem is not with the key, ignition cylinder or column wiring. If those readings are good I would keep searching for the starter relay. I believe that mine was tucked way up high between the fuse box and kick panel and may have had some tape or foam on it, just like Tuned Port posted in the other thread he referenced. If when you find the relay it still isn't getting power (it shouldn't be but check anyway) you can point the finger to the VATS box. Then do as I posted earlier. |
Re: VATS question Good lord. Just bypass the start enable relay and burn a new PROM with the VATS disabled. It's super easy. Someone like TunedPerformance could set you up with a PROM pretty easily I'm sure. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by Tibo
(Post 6250712)
It could be the contacts in the key, it could be the contacts in the cylinder. Take a reading of the resistance across the key, Then find the little two wire connector at the base of the steering column, disconnect the connector. In the picture below the column side is the two wires in the orange protective sheath. https://farm1.staticflickr.com/962/4...3d660951_c.jpg Insert the key in the cylinder and take a resistance reading of the connector that comes from the steering column/ignition switch. If both readings are within spec of one of the resistance values then (at least VATS wise) the problem is not with the key, ignition cylinder or column wiring. If those readings are good I would keep searching for the starter relay. I believe that mine was tucked way up high between the fuse box and kick panel and may have had some tape or foam on it, just like Tuned Port posted in the other thread he referenced. If when you find the relay it still isn't getting power (it shouldn't be but check anyway) you can point the finger to the VATS box. Then do as I posted earlier. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
(Post 6250720)
Good lord. Just bypass the start enable relay and burn a new PROM with the VATS disabled. It's super easy. Someone like TunedPerformance could set you up with a PROM pretty easily I'm sure. I really hate to have to have a chip burned since I just dropped some money on a new one from TBIchips not to awefull long ago BUT I'm not opposed to doing it if thats what it takes to keep it going and enjoy it. If I dont figure something solid out pretty soon I will look into this. Either way at this point I'm determined to eventually find that relay lol, its kinda irritated me not being able to locate it. |
Re: VATS question @Tibo ok heres the readings. New key reads 0.681 ohms, Old key from 92 reads 0.683 ohms, switch on with key inserted the connector varied from 0.681-0.688 ohms with it changing everytime I cycled key on to off. Also I noticed with connector unplugged security light did not come on at all with key in switch, not sure if thats normal or what. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6250862)
@Tibo ok heres the readings. New key reads 0.681 ohms, Old key from 92 reads 0.683 ohms, switch on with key inserted the connector varied from 0.681-0.688 ohms with it changing everytime I cycled key on to off. Also I noticed with connector unplugged security light did not come on at all with key in switch, not sure if thats normal or what. According to the table, your readings are spot on for #3 so you can rule out the key, ignition cylinder and steering column wiring. Double check the VATS fuse. If you wanted to continue then the next thing to try would be to check the resistance between the two pins at the VATS connector. Also check the appropriate grounds at the connector for +power and ground. If it is seeing the correct ohms and receiving + and - then it's safe to say your VATS box is dead. The VATS box is not easy to get to. I can't recall if you can get to it from the passenger side foot well, removing the dash pad and getting to it from the top or if the dash has to be removed... I would see about finding the starter enable relay and contacting TunedPerformance for a quote. |
Re: VATS question I dont think it necessarily dead yet just possibly on its way their quickly. Its still at the point where it just randomly wont start then will 10 minutes late. I need brush up on my multimeter use since its been ages since Ive had any electrical problems like this then Ill check that stuff. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6251001)
I dont think it necessarily dead yet just possibly on its way their quickly. Its still at the point where it just randomly wont start then will 10 minutes late. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by Tibo
(Post 6251004)
Assuming that the cause is VATS related, I wouldn't wait around until its 100% dead. You'd be mad at yourself if it died on you in a parking lot somewhere and you had to now pay a tow truck. |
Re: VATS question @Tibo when you said check resistance at the VATS pin you mean just probe the pins at the connector that plugs into the orange steering column wire correct? I shouldnt show any resistance or minimal unplugged I would think, But after checking I have checking Vats connector it has 10.31M ohms showing on the multimeter. Im not sure if Vats fuse should show voltage with key on but its showing 0 volts. |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6251109)
@Tibo when you said check resistance at the VATS pin you mean just probe the pins at the connector that plugs into the orange steering column wire correct? |
Re: VATS question Okay I misunderstood you on that my bad. Not sure if I will have a chance to work with it more today but I’ll for sure get to the vats tomorrow and look at it. When I was under it today I 💯 did not see the starter relay lol at least not one that looks like any I’ve seen in these pics. Just out of curiosity though if it fails what symptoms does it show? From what I understand now it shouldn’t be my issue since the security light is on at time of no start. Would that relay cause a no start situation similar to mine just with the light staying off? |
Re: VATS question If the starter enable relay fails. This results in a no crank situation. I’m really surprised it’s not in the typical location. |
Re: VATS question It would be a no start where you wouldnt hear the starter make a click noise or anything correct. Also kinda beside my fuse panel against the left side of the car there is a black electrical box with a wide connector running to it. the connector has like 6 wires running into it. 2 peach 1 orange and maybe 2-3 gray ones i think, what does this thing do? |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6251166)
It would be a no start where you wouldnt hear the starter make a click noise or anything correct.
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6251166)
Also kinda beside my fuse panel against the left side of the car there is a black electrical box with a wide connector running to it. the connector has like 6 wires running into it. 2 peach 1 orange and maybe 2-3 gray ones i think, what does this thing do? |
Re: VATS question You probably are right I removed it today and the car wouldn’t start. 2 minutes later with it still removed it crunk right up 🤦*♂️ . Now I’m stuck at the same point with the starter relay and this relay has broken mounting tabs. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...5db57b8f6.jpeg |
Re: VATS question |
Re: VATS question Ok so I didn’t get as much done on it today as I planned (had some things to do with the cavaliers) but I’ve done a lot of reading before I attempted to locate the vats box. From what I’m reading you have to remove the dash pad and the dash itself to gain access to the vats box. That sounds like a bigger job than I previously thought. It sounds like eventually the vats module itself will likely fail and I’ll have to come up with another solution seeing as you can’t replace it. So the more ive research the more questions I have. So if my module is bad then it’s pointless doing the resistor method because that just fools the module assuming it’s working right. I’ve seen these “vats bypass modules for sale” do they actually take the place of the faulty module? Or they basically just a more expensive version of the resistor mod? All of them I seen look a lot different than each other but from what I see they just install to the connector under the colum. Someone else here posted that I go through the method of having a chip burned with the vats deleted. At first I didn’t wanna do this seeing as the current chip isn’t old at all but I’m getting irritated with it at this point. The computer isn’t hard to access so I could have a new chip in and ready to roll quickly but from what I can tell I have to do something with the starter relay( which I cannot locate) to make it bypass. Can someone clarify for sure if a new chip will just plug in and take care of vats completely or do I need to still locate the relay and do modifications to it? |
Re: VATS question
Originally Posted by J-money
(Post 6251392)
Can someone clarify for sure if a new chip will just plug in and take care of vats completely or do I need to still locate the relay and do modifications to it? |
Re: VATS question That figures. I think my 4 year old may have helped me locate it. She must have got the angle of light at a angle I couldn’t. I found a relay electrical taped on the back side of a harness much much further up than the floorboard. I just happened to barely see the dark green wire. After unhooking it it will not start or starter click whether the security light is on the dash or not now. It looks like a regular relay though https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...13c00d0b7.jpeg |
Re: VATS question That looks like the culprit:) to bypass it I think you jumper the two larger wires. Green to yellow. |
Re: VATS question https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...789192c1e.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...bef0c2de1.jpeg I’m sure I can’t be the only one with a starter relay up in no mans land. So I’m post what mine looks like with this little contraption I came up with to bypass the relay (yellow to dark green ) sorry I couldn’t get better pics in that tight space. |
Re: VATS question https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...bda2cd7bc.jpegHopefully these will stay in place well |
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