Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Ok I don't claim to know a lot about anything but hopefully I can help another thirdgen head with there hybrid build by laying out my past build.
(Also I plan to make the photos attatchements as well so that you can always find them regardless of age)

1st things 1st, if you have a 2.8L or 3.1L this build will apply to you. But keep in mind that my set up was on a 3.1L, which is much easier IMO to tune while retaining your stock ECM. This pic below is a hybrid set up. I essentially have a gen3 pushrod gm V6 top end with a gen1 pushrod V6 bottom end.

ALSO keep in mind that I have a turbocharged set up. So I made my own headers and so forth. This will be different if you go a natural aspired set up.



Ok now a doner car or engine? I used a 2002 Impala with a 3400 engine. I had the whole car for the picking but here is what i used off of the car.

Assembled heads(rocker arms and all)
Upper and lower intake
Fuel rail and harness
Fuel pressure regulator
Throttle Cable
DIS ignition module and coil packs
Oil pump gear shaft and cap

Next Here are the parts I had to buy for the build. I am just showing a parts list here.


A external crank trigger kit VIA Britishcarconversions.com (I wanted a different kit and even ordered a different one but this is what I got I was impatient to run the car so I used it and timing is still spot on for now)
I used a 1993-1995 3.4L camaro crank trigger from autozone listed below also as the crank trigger kit does not come with the sensor itself.

Next are custom length pushrods as you will need to have ones made specifically for the build. Mine are non hardened since there is no guide. Also you will need to recheck your own numbers to make sure the lengths are correct but the numbers below should be very close. I got mine from WOT-Tech.com
http://wot-tech.com/shop/gm-60v6/cus...s/prod_78.html
Lengths
6.289" exhaust
5.939" intake


I got .020 over pistons from summit (speed pro)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sl...et?prefilter=1

I got moly rings to match the pistons. Hasting brand. I dont currently have a link for them.

I also replaced all the bearings in the engine when it was bored out along with the timing chain set and main seal. You can look that all up VIA autozone.com or summitracing.com



Now you will NEED to use FWD pistons unless you want very high compression(which you can use if you keep that in mind). I used FWD pistons for a 3100. I removed the engine and tore it down and sent it off to a shop first. I had the block machined out and cleaned up then re-assembled the short block.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Next part that can be difficult is getting the heads and intakes on.

1st you can bolt down the heads using a felpro gasket kit. Make sure the gasket material is metal coated with a rubber material. The composite ones in my mind are horrid and will case problems down the road in some cases.

2nd I used a felpro head bolt kit for a 2002 Impala with a 3400. I got the kit at autozone for about 35 bucks. They are TTY bolts so after you use them once and happen to take them out, you might as well get into a habit of replacing them.

Note the combustion chambers on the heads im using below. They are much smaller then a iron head gen1 head. This is why its recommended to use the matching pistons that go with the heads(FWD Gen3s in my case for a 3100)

Note See in the pic below where there is a shaved off piece of aluminum on the timing cover? That needs to be cut off so that the lower intake manifold will sit down properly.

Note See what the gasket looks like here? Its metal not composite. Some say that composite will work but I've tested these metal ones and love them so far. Do NOT use any RTV or sealant on them.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

After the intakes and heads are on you will have to get the wiring down pat

What I did was splice and lengthen the fuel injector wiring pig tails. With the new intake the old 3.1L harness was not long enough so I made the correction. Soldering each joint and shrink wrapping the connections afterwards. I used 48lbs injectors but for a N/A set up 22Lbs or so would be a good starting point.

The coolent sensor
The sensor that use to be on our 3.1L heads is not on the 3100 heads so I had to tap a area on the water neck area on the pic below and then used that as my guage temp reading sensor. The Sensor for the ECM is still retained in the lower intake manifold.

Next the DIS ignition system
For this you will need to tune the ecm to make it work. I use code 59 so if anyone runs into this situation i can let ya know what worked for my set up.
The wireing is actually pretty simple. I just took the 3100 DIS ignition module and pig tail and wired it into the stock 3.1L ICM wiring. Same colors on mine as the 3100.

The crank sensor is a 7x sensor. Make sure to use that specific one off a 3.4L Fbody.

Words from Mav:
Pink to pink
Black/White to Black/White or just to the frame/engine
Black/Red to Red/Black (IDK why they swapped the wire colors but they did and the function is the same)
Purple/White to Purple/White
White to White
Tan/Black to Tan/Black (you can leave the EST bypass connector if you want)

Crank Sensor:
Yellow to Yellow
Purple to Purple
There MAY be a ground but it will NOT be at the sensor and it's a shielding wire)

Here are some pics of the stuff

My 3100 Ign module did not have a tach signal but I later tied one into this harness. I dont use if for the stock Tach but for a 5 inch Autoguage instead and never had a issue.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Next the crank sensor and reluctor wheel

You can try to do this but that didnt work so well for me as I was trouble shooting other issues and just got a external reluctor wheel kit from Brittishcarconversion.com


If you look at it close you can see my balancer wheel and the crank sensor(remember the sensor has to be a 7x sensor from a 1993-95 3.4L Fbody

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Next the cables
Now I reused the stock TV cable and it was almost too short but worked. I can guarantee that if you get the tension correct it wont hurt the tranny and will work great. Almost 50 passes at the drag strip this year and a best of 11.70@116mph and the trans is working and shifting awesome still.


I basically made a bracket for the cable and used the stock 700r4 detentoner. You'll know if you have it set up properly as soon as you hook it to the throttle body and exersize it. The angle of the cable pull and tension is the most important aspect


I used a 2002 Impala throttle cable as the stock cable is too short. It works great and never had any issues. Just run it as neat as possible because it is definitely long but works fine.

EDIT I now run a TH350 trans with a TCI full man valve body. I plan to write up a thread on the swap with some pics also. This swap made the TV cable go away and any electronics short of the vss signal.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Nice job man! That is quite impressive! How fast is she?

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

The crank sensor can actually be from any DIS equipped 60 degree V6 from 1987 to 2003. These will be FWD cars, other than the '93 to '95 F-body with a 3.4.

There are other cars that use the same or similar sensor, such as the 2.0 OHV engines from 1987 to 1996-ish, but interchangeability can be tricky sometimes.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Actually the 3.4 RWD IIRC uses a longer sensor and doesn't interchange with the FWD sensors.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

I'm 99% sure they are the same length, when comparing 60 degree V6 to 60 degree V6.

Besides the length is only important if it is being installed into a block, which is not the case when one installs an external trigger set-up. ;)

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

It matters if the external trigger mount is designed around a specific sensor ;). I seem to recall someone who bought the BCC RWD kit and tried to use a FWD sensor, not realizing that they are different. He then had to buy the RWD sensor which incidentally is also more expensive.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

All of the images I can find that say specifically for 3.4 RWD the sensor looks to be the EXACT SAME as the FWD sensors, which is the only thing that really makes sense since it's still a 60 degree V6 block, using the same crank as the FWD 3.1/3.4/3100/3400, so why would GM change something that works so well for what they knew would be a limited production engine? ;)

The only issue I recall someone having with crank sensor length had to do with either an unknown source for the sensor or it was a non 60 degree V6 crank sensor.

As far as pricing goes, GM has been known to put two different part numbers on the same piece and charge more for one of the part numbers, due to application being a more luxurious or desired model. Many times aftermarket will follow suit (not always), because hey, if you can charge more for the same part, some companies will.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

That would be me. The 3.4 CKP is a half inch longer than the 3x00 series. And is required for use in the BCC DIS kit since they don't provide it and don't tell you that you need it. There is not enough adjustment in their sensor mount to allow the bracket tube to be cut to use a 3x00 sensor. The 3x00 sensor will NOT protrude from the tube in the bracket like it is supposed to so you will have proper spacing to the trigger wheel in the damper. And the real kicker is that a 3x00 series sensor is roughly $10 while the 93-95 3.4 sensor is $40.

Oh, almost forgot: You CANNOT use the BCC CKP mount with a 3.4 alternator/A/C compressor bracket. The bracket mounts to the lower hole in the block where the mount is bolted and covers the upper hole completely. You will either need to find a different kit that corrects this or you will need to fabricate a bracket.

Eddi, you CAN use the stock fuel injector harness without modifications to the length of the injector pigtails. If you face the injectors so that the harness connections face the middle of the engine you can connect the harness without touching anything. I have posted a pic of this... Only reason a couple of the plugs were spliced is because they were replaced... Remainder of harness was untouched.

Another thing is that using a separate coolant temp sender for the gauge is not required. Some years of the 3100 used a 3-wire sensor similar to the oil pressure switch that does both functions. And you can remove the coolant pipe in the intake (pressed in) that had previously been used for the heater core and tap the remaining hole for a second sensor (I plugged the factory 3100 CTS hole because it's in the way of my intake to heater core hose and put the CTS in this hole after tapping it with a 3/8 NPT tap).

Having no issues here with my 3.1 replacement FelPro HS8699PT6 head gaskets either... On 11.4:1 CR.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Thanks for the correction on the extension of the fuel injector pig tails. I wasn't sure if it would fit so I extended them earlier before I got to actually put it all together and see what fit.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

I updated some pics making them attachments. Hopefully I made some sense out of this or at least gave some interested V6 owners a idea of the swap and its complexity.

Also for anyone wanting to know the potential of the 2.8 or 3.1L when its in hybrid form with a turbo, I attached a few time slips below. Keep in mind this car is still a full interior car, I do drive it quite a bit, and a 70 mile round trip to the track each and every Sunday. I feel that with larger injectors and a few suspension mods(as my cars suspension is basically stock) this set up could easily hit low 11s and trap 122 123 124mph still under mild boost(18psi or so)
I made the fastest pass on a decent weather day(11.59@119mph). It was about 75 degrees out but a tad humid. 15psi of command boost and shifting at 5800 rpms. 50Hp shot of n2o at the line until 8psi of boost was reached.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Going to make a correction to what I said before:

The 3-wire coolant temp sensor is from a 3800. Try either an F-body or a Regal, Grand Prix, etc. And as of a month ago, it's $30 (bought a replacement I'm not using at current so it's still in the box).

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Some 3100, 3400 (usually early version, mid '90's) and a few other applications that I can't recall right now did use the 3 wire CTS. It'll be the same part as the 3800 CTS that you are talking about.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

If I keep the stock piston will I need to run premium? Or would 87 work

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Im actually on that route right now. 93 at minimum but I'm going e85. There is alot of compression with rwd pistons. On my set up I coming up with 12.68:1

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

i want to start buying everything I need for this swap. there are 2 4th gens at my local yard. for some reason I cant remove the crank trigger/ reluctor. So I checked out british car conversions but says site is down. Also, I remember seeing someone do this swap but they where able to keep the distributor by shaving part of the intake manifold. unless I was looking at a different hybrid.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Umm i know a few that have tried to keep the dizzy with a hybrid swap but heres my thought.... why do all that work to keep old technology. You have to tune it anyways when doing the hybrid swap, so why not do the dis conversion and make it easier. All you have to do is litterly match up the wires minus one or 2, to the old ones on your ICM. Change a few things in you bin file for the timing, and you are good to go.

If you go and hack down the upper intake to make room for the dizzy, you are killing the flow though the back of it. SO unless you are to design a new intake then its best to just swap it over to dis.

Even in a non hybrid V6 a DIS ignition is better and can be swapped easily. Helps tuning be more accurate, reliable, and looks alot better imo as well.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

alright cool. I was just thinking that I wouldn't have to tune it, had I left the distributor. now I just have to try and pull the crank trigger at the local yard. how do I go about making my own crank trigger?

BTW fasteddi, were you not selling some kits for this? did you sell them?

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

I did sell the kit last fall, sorry. But brittish car conversions sells a kit. External RWD dis conversion kit, its what i had. I tried to make it all at one point but ended up buying the kit and it was the best 160 bucks ive ever spent...lol Worked perfect for 3 straight years.

If you buy this kit here...then all you need is a crank position sensor off a 93-95 3.4L fbody from autozone its like 35 bucks or so. Its a perfect fit and the wire is perfect as well.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

well it appears britishcarconversions is down. as much as I would love to do this, the 'maro is my daily so I cant have it down. I hope I can get a v6 shortblock and then build from there. then pay someone to drop it in/ tune it. the whole tuning thing just put me off.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

All you need off of the junkyard car is the ignition module assembly and the wiring... The long wire will go down to the crank position sensor you need to yank. The reluctor on the back of the damper on the 3.4 is useless unless you're going to be using the 3.4 ECM.

The ENTIRE ignition kit I bought from BCC was useless. First there was the CKP sensor mount which I can't use with the 3.4 alternator bracket. Then there was the trigger "wheel" which was merely a new damper with notches cut in the outer ring as opposed to a fixed disc bolted to it or whatever. Whoever put it on the mill mounted it upside down (as I was told) so the notches were all wrong. So I got my money back, made a diagram as to where to cut the notches, and bought a replacement damper to cut the trigger into.

So, if you're going to do a DIS conversion, you're better off getting a damper and cutting it yourself. Half the notches are already marked on it.

However, if you're going to get another short block anyways, you might as well up the ante and get a 3.4. Which already has the DIS.

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

I must have good but bad luck. The ckp kit I wanted was the reluctor wheel to weld up but instead they sent me the rwd kit with the notches on the balancer, but it worked flawlessly for 3 years. Not a problem. Now I have a 3.4l though so I don't use that anymore. I just use the stock stuff for ckp

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

They openly admitted their mistake to me when I emailed them with pics of the damper. I hope the guy got at least a stern talking to or possibly got fired if mine wasn't the only damper he screwed up in the batch. At least I got a full refund. I hope that by now they either provide the sensor to go with it or at least note on the item page or in the directions if they provide them, that you need the Camaro sensor and a generic FWD won't work, by now...

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

i just got a 3 4 alt braket what did you do for a custom mount for the sensor id like some pictures because rt now im at a loss on what to do

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Mine is a cut up aluminum road sign... Only thing I had to make the mount. It's a bit floppy but the sensor isn't killing itself on the trigger wheel. Took me 3 tries to get it bent right before I found something that would work. You have to bend it in such a way you can get the lower bracket bolt through it before mounting and you will need to use a wrench and not a socket on it since the bracket will cover the bolt...

Re: Hybrid Guide (fasteddis set up)
 

Any chance you have a picture lol i get what youre saying but a picture is worth 1000 words.