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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
The paint booth is gone and the car is back in its workin on spot. i can continue with reassembly.
The center section of the tail lights has a broken tab. way back in the day i was thinking i would just replace it but i never got one. so I will need to repair the one i have.
I used the super glue and baking soda method to rebuild the broken part.
After a little sanding and paint, It turned out way better then i expected. I cant speak to its longevity but it was pretty strong.
The tail lights were otherwise in great shape, they just needed a little cleaning and polishing. it really starts to look like a car with the tail lights.
I had never heard of the super glue and baking soda deal...just reading a bit about it online. Looks like a good repair.
My initial impressions are good. it seems strong but time will tell. this tab is lock in place between the taillight and body so there wont be any movement or stress on it.
This past weekend i pulled all the posts out of storage that i will need to reassemble the car and pilled them up in my work space.
I was a bit worried because i could not find my door handles. i knew i bought new ones back in the day. i remember having them but could not find them. looking online they are around $150ish each for NOS. I know aftermarket ones are cheap but I wanted original GM parts. After getting everything moved around i finally found them under some interior panels. They where in the wrong box. it was a relief.
I'm also glad i bought a full set of GM weather stripping back in the day. that stuff is expensive now.
this is the rear hatch weather stripping. I have the rest of the weather stripping in a box. i looked it over and its a little dusty but its still soft and in great shape
One of the first assemblies i restored back in 2007 when i took the car apart was the headlights. I completely disassembled, cleaned, painted and replaced the motors with NOS motors. They have been sitting in a box for the last 18 years.
And today is the day they go back in the car....well one of them. I seem to have lost 2 of the mounting brackets for the passenger side. I bought some replacements from a popular internet auction site for not vary much money. Once i get them i can get passenger side mounted.
Not sure if they work yet but it looks good. i also realize getting them adjusted is going to be "fun".
The doors are also next on my todo list. I started laying out the hardware to see what i have. The keen eye among you may notice the window regulator on the left side (driver side) is manual while the one on the right side is power. My car originally came with power windows and i intend to install power windows back into the car. The original door on the car was in bad shape and needed to be replaced and i ended up using one was from a Camaro with manual windows. I still have the original door that came with the car and I'll be getting the power windows regulator out of it.
I don't know how this happens but the rear hatch glass hinge is bent. These hinges are not cheap either. I bought a used set that looked good in pictures but we'll see when they get here.
The original door on the car was in bad shape and needed to be replaced and i ended up using one was from a Camaro with manual windows.
Did you have any issues in aligning the Camaro door? I contemplated getting a donor door for mine due to the bad skinning job they did 40 years ago. I have always assumed the doors were lined up and then the hinges somehow adjusted and welded simultaneously on the line. I figured a donor door would never line up on another body.
Originally Posted by wildjeff
I don't know how this happens but the rear hatch glass hinge is bent. These hinges are not cheap either. I bought a used set that looked good in pictures but we'll see when they get here.
Agree, how can a hinge bend that much without breaking the glass? There's lots of threads on this subject.
Did you have any issues in aligning the Camaro door? I contemplated getting a donor door for mine due to the bad skinning job they did 40 years ago. I have always assumed the doors were lined up and then the hinges somehow adjusted and welded simultaneously on the line. I figured a donor door would never line up on another body.
No issues with the door. I used new hinge pins and bushing but that was it and it lined up just fine. The door was from an early camaro but i dont recall the details. I don't know if later years would have any issues on earlier cars.
Looking at the part catalog for both camaro and firebirds. the part numbers for the door shell for 82-84 are the same
82-84 F . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20493186 RH
82-84 F . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20493187 LH
Later years have different numbers. probably due to the holes for the ground effects.
Last edited by wildjeff; Sep 29, 2025 at 07:36 PM.
your attention to detail restoring this car is amazing! i always look forward to reading your updates.
it makes me wish i had gone the extra three miles when i restored by '84. LOL
your attention to detail restoring this car is amazing! i always look forward to reading your updates.
it makes me wish i had gone the extra three miles when i restored by '84. LOL
Thank you. Having a place where i can work on it little by little helps. I have a full time job and other obligation so i don't get to work on it as much as I'd like. Being able to start something, set it down and comeback to it a day or two later helps a lot.
Still working on getting the front end together. Nearly everything is in place except the underside aero parts. I can't install them until the fender liners are in place and I can’t do that until I get the power antenna installed, which i still have to rebuild. Everything is affected by everything else. I had to buy the plastic nuts that hold the turn signals in place. Fortunately, I found some on a popular internet auction website for not to bad a price but still more then i want to spend. I’m glad I bought the turn signal housing back in 2007, NOS ones are crazy expensive. I did have a set of the grill inserts that I bough long ago but I used them on my 82 T/A so I had to get a replacement set. Becouse, NOS parts are expense, I went with aftermarket. I figure if I ever find an NOS set for a good price I’ll swap them. They are easy to access.
Getting everything lined up is going to be a chore. its like every part has 6 different adjustments and they all depend on every other part. I have no idea how they did this at the factory.
I have also been working on the headline. I'm opting to restore an original part. I did buy an ABS headliner but its kinda flimsy.
The original parts are fiberboard and degrade over time. I found one that is is mostly good shape but i decided to fiberglass its. I just started the sanding process. I'll see how it turns out.
I does feel more substantial.
This looks awesome. When I got my 82 ta back from paint the body guy spent 1/2 a day trying to get the lights and front end all aligned. Getting the lights lined up is such a pain in the ***.
Still working on getting the front end together. Nearly everything is in place except the underside aero parts. I can't install them until the fender liners are in place and I can’t do that until I get the power antenna installed, which i still have to rebuild. Everything is affected by everything else. I had to buy the plastic nuts that hold the turn signals in place. Fortunately, I found some on a popular internet auction website for not to bad a price but still more then i want to spend. I’m glad I bought the turn signal housing back in 2007, NOS ones are crazy expensive. I did have a set of the grill inserts that I bough long ago but I used them on my 82 T/A so I had to get a replacement set. Becouse, NOS parts are expense, I went with aftermarket. I figure if I ever find an NOS set for a good price I’ll swap them. They are easy to access.
Getting everything lined up is going to be a chore. its like every part has 6 different adjustments and they all depend on every other part. I have no idea how they did this at the factory.
I have also been working on the headline. I'm opting to restore an original part. I did buy an ABS headliner but its kinda flimsy.
The original parts are fiberboard and degrade over time. I found one that is is mostly good shape but i decided to fiberglass its. I just started the sanding process. I'll see how it turns out.
I does feel more substantial.
Be careful how much 'glass you lay on it. If it gets too thick, and I mean as in more than 1/16", or so, reattaching trim and sun visors become a real PITA. It DOES make the board stiffer, but it'll also not allow it to compress as you install trim parts. I brushed fiberglass resin onto the headliner panel on our '92, adding fabric to fix tears and holes. Holy cr@p it was a bear to reinstall!! I should have spent much more time sanding the surface before gluing the headliner fabric on, but even then, I probably wouldn't have spent the time to grind it down to make it thinner.
It's in the car now, and I've moved on to other projects. It was a real bisch, though, probably made worse by the knowledge that the aftermarket headliner I had bought was such a POS I couldn't use it.
Is there just the one manufacturer of the ABS headliner? I assumed there was. I'm kind of surprised by these last few posts. I installed an ABS t-top headliner in a non-overhead console car about 15 years ago and the fitment was pretty decent. Not factory original looking by any means, but the average onlooker would have never known.
Is there just the one manufacturer of the ABS headliner? I assumed there was. I'm kind of surprised by these last few posts. I installed an ABS t-top headliner in a non-overhead console car about 15 years ago and the fitment was pretty decent. Not factory original looking by any means, but the average onlooker would have never known.
The one i got was shipped folded in half and spring open when i took it out of the box. it was wobbly but probably would work. I just wanted something more OEM looking.
Getting everything lined up is going to be a chore. its like every part has 6 different adjustments and they all depend on every other part. I have no idea how they did this at the factory.
I know exactly what you mean. On every vehicle I have restored, I could get all the panels aligned satisfactorily, but sure enough, on subsequent mock ups and on the final assembly, something was always different that made the alignments different in some way. It's a constant fight, same for my 83 Camaro.
The rear glass is in, its starting to look like a car. I still need to assemble the deck lid but i have all the parts and they are painted and ready to go. The glass trim needs to be painted but i need to wait until its warmer. I should have painted it last summer when i painted the car but the glass was put in a safe place and i completely forgot about it.
The seats are also ready to go. My car originally came with the Standard Custom Reclining Bucket Seats but i found a set of period correct Lear Siegler seats a long time ago that i will be installing. The rear seats needed work. the foam and hard parts where in good shape but my car spent most of its life in California and the California sun destroyed seat covers. Using GM NOS fabric I had some seat covers for the rear seats made. The old covers where in good enough shape to use as a temple and they turned out really well. The passenger rear seat looks like it has a mark on it but its just lighting. They look great in person.
Here is the seats when i bought the car. the top of the rear seats has disintegrated. along with the headliner and carpet.
seats look great. the reproduction fabric for the sides is too brown and isn't a good match.
Its not reproduction, its NOS OEM fabric. its just the lighting, I just moved the seats. they look perfect in person. With this fabric, the color will change lighter or darker a bit depending the direction you move your hand over it. This fabric has a grain, when i had the seat covers made it was something the upholsterer and i discussed to make sure it was orientated correctly.
Jeff, I took it as him saying the reproductions aren't a good match but your NOS fabric is correct. He wasn't referring that your seats are reproductions.
Jeff, I took it as him saying the reproductions aren't a good match but your NOS fabric is correct. He wasn't referring that your seats are reproductions.
This post is going to be a bit different. I was working on installing the windshield wiper linkage and my ratchet started to slip.
My go to ratchet is a 3/8" Craftsman V series I bought in 1990 from CVN (now QVC). They used to have Craftsman tool hours with various deals on Sears tools. That was where I bought my first mechanics tool set and this ratchet was part of that set. Over the last year or so i noticed it was starting to slip and just not work as well. About a week ago when i was working on the wiper linkage it really started to slip and miss. I was debating if i should rebuild it or retire it. This ratchet is probably one of the hardest working tools i have, along with the #2 Phillips screw driver which is also from that same mechanics set from 1990.
I decided to take it apart, clean it and see what is needed. I found the pawl was worn a bit but the gear and other parts where in great shape. I ended up replacing the pawl, giving it a bit of grease and its working like new. I don't know if newer tools are repairable but i think its amazing this ratchet has lasted this long and i can still get parts to repair it. It's been in service for 35 years and I'm looking forward to another 35 years. I also took this opportunity to clean and lube the 1/4" and 3/4" versions of this ratchet that i got at the same time.
On a side note. the wiper linkage is in place. I just need to get the wiper arm installed. I don't know how they did this at the factory but it was a challenge to get everything lined up to get he bolts in. They must have jigs or something.
We have several of those models of Craftsman ratchets, 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive and all have worked very well for decades. One of the 1/2" drive units got notchy snd started skipping, but a quick disassembly, lube and reassembly got it back on the road.
i wasn't aware you could rebuild those ratchets yourself. i've always turned them in for new ones, but i'm noticing the new ratchets don't always work as well as the old one.
Funny we all have our go to ratchets. I must have 7 different 3/8 drive ratchets but use the same one over and over. I remember back in the day, you could take your ratchet back to Sears and they would "rebuild it" while you waited. Which that allowed me to go drool over all the tools I wanted but could not afford at the time.
i wasn't aware you could rebuild those ratchets yourself. i've always turned them in for new ones, but i'm noticing the new ratchets don't always work as well as the old one.
Many times, you can. It's just finding the kit that can be a problem. Additionally, simply opening the head up and giving it a bit of lubrication can really help them out if they're not working quite right. I had that happen to a torque wrench. The head started slipping in both directions, so I pulled it apart and lubed it. It was completely dry. That worked for many years until it started happening again. Took it apart again, and noticed that the spring was bent making it unusable. So I took that as an opportunity to order a new wrench that had torque plus degree of angle, necessary for many modern fasteners. It's okay, but beeps at the set setting, instead of the clicks I've grown accustomed to.
I also got lucky and found a repair kit for the ratchet head on the old wrench. When I got that, it actually had rebuild instructions with it, allowing me to discover that I had assembled the head incorrectly those many years ago. Put it back together, and now I have two torque wrenches (well, I actually have more, but these two I use a lot). So me and my co-driver can have dueling torque wrench competitions.
Funny we all have our go to ratchets. I must have 7 different 3/8 drive ratchets but use the same one over and over. I remember back in the day, you could take your ratchet back to Sears and they would "rebuild it" while you waited. Which that allowed me to go drool over all the tools I wanted but could not afford at the time.
I think I only warrantied a Craftsman tool once back in the day. I seem to recall it was a socket that had the chrome finish flaking off.
For this socket, the USA made NOS rebuild kits are still available on a popular internet auction site for not to much money. I also took this opportunity to clean and lube my other sockets.
This was after i already replaced the pawl and reinstalled the lever before i lubed and reassembled.
Many times, you can. It's just finding the kit that can be a problem. Additionally, simply opening the head up and giving it a bit of lubrication can really help them out if they're not working quite right. I had that happen to a torque wrench. The head started slipping in both directions, so I pulled it apart and lubed it. It was completely dry. That worked for many years until it started happening again. Took it apart again, and noticed that the spring was bent making it unusable. So I took that as an opportunity to order a new wrench that had torque plus degree of angle, necessary for many modern fasteners. It's okay, but beeps at the set setting, instead of the clicks I've grown accustomed to.
I also got lucky and found a repair kit for the ratchet head on the old wrench. When I got that, it actually had rebuild instructions with it, allowing me to discover that I had assembled the head incorrectly those many years ago. Put it back together, and now I have two torque wrenches (well, I actually have more, but these two I use a lot). So me and my co-driver can have dueling torque wrench competitions.
I had a Craftsman torque wrench i tried to warranty in the early 2000's but they wouldn't do it. only hand tools have lifetime warranty. I ended up buying a new torque wrench and still have the old. I think it just needs adjustment. maybe someday I'll take a look fixing it.
The rear hatch is on. What a pain that was. Just getting everything lined up took half a day. I’m starting to think the people on the assembly line had magical powers when they build these cars.
One thing i forgot to do last summer was paint the metal trim about the glass. Its too cold to paint now so I'm going to wait until next spring.
The good thing was, I used the original glass and deck lid so the screw holes lined up. There are two seals where the glass meets the deck lid one is foam and one is butyl, that is the stickily black stuff. That means if the panel alignment is off, its messy to remove and start over.
The issue I had was getting the hinge bolts to line up. The holes are over sized in the glass and body to allow adjustment but the hinge to glass bolts are not accessible once the hinge is bolted to the body. That means there is a lot of unbolting and bolting.
The first time I got the hatch installed and got everything lined up perfectly, I installed the gas struts and the struts ended up pushed the hatch backwards about a quarter of an inch. After all that work, I forgot to torque the hinge to glass bolts. Ack. So I had to start over.
Anyway, Its on now and its starting to look like a car.
What hinges did you use? I bought the ones from Hawk's but haven't installed them yet...
I used OEM hinges. one of my original hinges was good but the other one was bent. I found one on a popular internet auction site at a reasonable price that was in good shape.
The T-Tops are done, what an adventure that was. Back in 2007 I bought a set up NOS ttops and was expecting to use them. I assumed I would just take them out of the box and put them on. Nope.
The one I bought were for an 84. At the time I knew that and I though it would be fine and didn’t think about them since. Fast forward to now and when I opened them I realized they were not going to work for the goal of this project.
While they will work from a functional standpoint, there are 3 issues.
1) In 84 GM switched from latches to pins to hold the top on.
2) They have the masking on the underside on all four sides of the glass. This is a better design because it keeps the weatherstrip from rubbing off the tinting but in 82 and 83 its only on the outer edges.
3) the driver side handle says DRIVER. In 82 and 83 it should be blank.
While these are all improvements, my goal for this project is to keep the car as close as I can to what came off the line at the factory. That means rebuilding my old t-tops.
This is my old top
Notice the latches and no masking on the underside. Fortunately, I bought NOS part to restore them back in the day. The glass was in good shape and I had the trim, weather stripping and the edge guards that goes around the glass. I had some NOS GM weatherstrip drip molding but it was made of hard plastic, the original ones were rubber and I really wanted the rubber one. I saw some NOS parts on a popular internet auction site but they all looked old and were expensive. Then I found Fairchild Industries Weatherstrip Seals - kg4033 at summit for a good price. When I got them I was happy to find they are very close to the original.
These are the stripes. The GM parts are hard plastic. i think GM move to hard Plastic parts in the later years but i wanted rubber pieces.
After some cleaning and reassembly, it popped them on the car and … more adjustments… in 6 directions. How the heck did they build this car the factory.
Once adjusted and on the car.
They still need to be painted. Since I wasn’t thinking I would use them I didn’t think to paint them last summer. They will be easy enough to paint this spring when it warms up.
Last edited by wildjeff; Jan 25, 2026 at 10:09 PM.
I believe the hard plastic rain flaps were a design improvement that GM implemented after our cars were out of production. They don't deform after a few years and start getting stuck in the door when you close it. What part # are your flaps? I've got an nos RH #20453466 (the more rubbery version) and according to a June '88 GM parts catalog, is correct for '82-'89. GM superseeded #'s all the time, when suppliers changed and it wouldn't surprise me if later superseeded #'s were still the more rubber version.
My '92 has the rubber rain flaps too.
*edit*
I just noticed that while said nos rain flap has #20453466 on the unopened package, the rubber flap itself has part #20297594. When that number is searched, the Fairchild listing comes up as being a replacement.
Last edited by 86blackiroc; Jan 26, 2026 at 09:19 AM.
I believe the hard plastic rain flaps were a design improvement that GM implemented after our cars were out of production. They don't deform after a few years and start getting stuck in the door when you close it. What part # are your flaps? I've got an nos RH #20453466 (the more rubbery version) and according to a June '88 GM parts catalog, is correct for '82-'89. GM superseeded #'s all the time, when suppliers changed and it wouldn't surprise me if later superseeded #'s were still the more rubber version.
My '92 has the rubber rain flaps too.
*edit*
I just noticed that while said nos rain flap has #20453466 on the unopened package, the rubber flap itself has part #20297594. When that number is searched, the Fairchild listing comes up as being a replacement.
Interesting your 92 had rubber parts, I bought the plastic ones on 2007 and i dont remember the rubber ones being available then.
I have been working on getting the doors back together. This mean installing the glass and all the linkage. One thing I discovered is order of operation matters. Basically, the door handle and locking linkage, then the window guide, regulator and window channels. And install the glass.
Way back in 2007 when I disassembled the doors, I did not remove the metal channels from the glass. I don’t know how I did it but I thought I could install the glass with the channel still attached. Nope, I could not figure out how to get the glass in the door with the metal channel still attached. Removing it was easy enough and putting it in the door was easy enough and sliding the glass into the channel was easy enough. But securing it with rivets was nerve-wracking. I really didn’t want to shatter the glass and I didn’t know how much pressure I could apply. But u took it slow and was very carful and got the glass installed.
I also had an issue with window motor. When I was starting the passenger door, I bench tested the power window motors and it worked great. Even though I bought new motors I decided not to swap it. That was a mistake. Once I got everything back together the window would not go up without help. The motor worked but not very well. I ended up replacing it. It would have been easier on the bench when the regulator was out of the door but oh well. For the driver side I didn’t even test it. I just replaced it.
Once the motor was placed the window worked great
The driver side is mostly done. i still need to paint the triangle. the one i have is sound but does not look good. Need warmer weather to paint
While waiting for warmer weather I started to get the seat tracks ready. I’ll be installing power seats and the tracks are in good shape for the most part.
After a soak in Evapo-Rust the passenger side track turned now really nice, they just had a bit of light surface rust.
The drive side power seat track where a bit more challenging. I did want to soak the motors because I don’t know what it would do to the, at this point I didn’t even know if they work so I ended up soaking each side.
After a few days the tracks turned out great. Then I test the motor The forward/back worked and the front up/down worked but the rear up/down did not work. What a bummer. the good news is that it ended up being an electrical issue with the switch and corrosion on the contacts. Once I cleaned, it started working. Mostly. The motors are week. They do work but are getting tired. If I can find a replacement motor set I may swap it out but for now it's functional.
The other issue I had was with the switch. The switch that was came with the seat base was not good. It was rusty and had some broken plastic. I remember buying a new switch 15 years ago when I was buying parts but I could not find it anywhere. I went through all my parts boxes and nothing. I started thinking maybe didn’t buy a power seat switch. So off to ebay I went. 15 years ago, they were cheap and everywhere. That's what I was expecting. NOPE. NOS or nice switches are like $300 and crappy ones are still around $75 to $100. I was not going to pay that so started looking around the internet and could not find any, anywhere. Crap.
Well, it turned out I did buy a new switch many years ago and I found it sitting on my work bench. Turns out it was stored with my seat tracks in a plastic bag and when I unloaded the box with the tracks and other parts I must have blanked out and not noticed I had literally picking it up and put it in the middle of my work area. Except for going senile, I was pretty excited I had it.
It's frustrating when you buy replacement components, only to find the originals tucked away, where you stored them, (many yrs B4), only to find them after the fact. Been there, done it.
P/W, and power seats, quite the luxury car. Of course you're air conditioned, and P/S too, with rear window defogger, Bose AM/FM/cassette player? By the way, (I'll have-ta re-read your thread) is it also a TH700? Good to see fwd progress on your project.
It's frustrating when you buy replacement components, only to find the originals tucked away, where you stored them, (many yrs B4), only to find them after the fact. Been there, done it.
P/W, and power seats, quite the luxury car. Of course you're air conditioned, and P/S too, with rear window defogger, Bose AM/FM/cassette player? By the way, (I'll have-ta re-read your thread) is it also a TH700? Good to see fwd progress on your project.
It a 5-speed manual.
Fortunately i didn't buy the switch but there have been instance in this project where i couldn't find something, bought a new one then found the original one.
I went thru your thread after posting, and saw it was a T5. Yours must be a late 83 cause I was under the impression 82-83 were ST-10s, and the T5 came out in 84. Curious, does yours have a Hyd. clutch? I'm assuming it does. When you had your brake booster off, you must've seen the clutch reservoir under it. (?). Anyway, yours seems like the best performance model that year, with the stick, and rear disc. Should be worth a pretty penny when you're done. Keep us updated, and good luck with it. Nice job so far. Hoping to see some test drives this summer.
83 Was the first year for the 5 speed, although the 4 speed was still available and in 83 they where still mechanical linkage, hydraulic clutch was introduced in 84. So i have a 5-speed with mechanical clutch. it was a one year only thing which has made finding parts on the more challenging side. Its also an HO car. The high output engine was released late in the 83 model year. While most 84 HO parts will work I have also had some issues finding the right sensors and other odds and ends.
Whoa. How cool is that. You wouldn't happen to have any photos of the Z-bar, from above and below, would you. My 84 was an auto, and I've converted to a mech. clutch like yours, with a T5. Still in the debugging stages.
Been working on the door card. I know they make reproduction door cards but they are not quite the same. The stitching is different and the fabric is not the same
Here is a side by side by side for comparison. The one in blue is the reproduction door card and the tan one is my original.
It really doesn’t matter but I just want it to look authentic so I decided to rebuild the one I have. This also give me the opportunity to use the correct OEM PALLEX cloth on the doors to match the seats and I have extra carpet that will match what is going in the car.
I did try to clean up the cards but they are to dirty and the carpet is showing wear. My plan is to disassemble the panels and glue in new carpet and upper fabric section.
Here is the carpet and fabric removed.
I also had to figure out what to do with the upper trim. The plastic on my door cards was good but the weather stripping was bad. Originally, I bought reproduction pieces and while they will work the texture was a little off.
Fortunately, I found reproduction replacement weather stripping and I was able to remove the old and install the new.
everything reassembled and ready to go back in the car. This is the passenger side. i was working on both of them in parallel.
And in the car. I had the unfortunate incident of forgetting to make sure the power window switch was in the correct place. After i got the door panel on i discovered the switch and wiring was laying inside on the bottom of the door. at this point i had already snapped the door card into place. fortunately i was to fish it out without remove the card.
ACK! i noticed the rear of the door handle trim was pushed out a bit. After some diagnosis it determined it was the metal part circled in red was not suppose to be there and was keeping the plastic trim from seating all the way down. So I removed it. These are GM OEM handles i bought 20 years ago and assumed they where correct. All the picture and part number i can find for the door handles do not have that metal piece.
Does anyone know, are these for a later model F body or some other GM vehicle?