CBiz18

I want to turn my 92 camaro into a handling machine! Im thinking about doing the spohn double adjustable rear coilover kit with the 200# spring rate in the back and maybe doing a weight jack setup in the front. I want to make it a stiff good handling car, If you have a third gen built for road race/autox type stuff what would you recommend?

Thanks.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Search the forums luke. The questions have been asked, hashed, re-hashed, blended, shredded, char broiled, grilled, chopped, and composted in dozens of threads.

Focus on getting rid of the slop inherent in over 23 years of wear and tear and it will ride much better. Beyond that, there are very few solid answers about what makes a thirdgen handle better.

About the only solid advice that always seems to be true is to fix the slop and lower the car. Even though it screws with the suspension geometry its still beneficial.

Once you lower it, then the discussions about how to correct the geometry explode.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Also, what level driver are you? Informal club or hard core SCCA? What's your budget? There is a very long list of components and adjustments you could make and, as pointed out above, thousands of threads covering every aspect of what can be done. If you're a novice driver you could not bother making any changes and just go out and race what you have until you're as good as the car. And meanwhile read read read.

RamIt

Its best to state your goals realistically and your budget first.

NWFreerider

I started out this past November with a clean '91 Z-28 that I wanted to do the same thing. Wheels/ tires and suspension, and brakes. I have easily dropped $8k doing this with more to come. I did my first auto x several weeks ago and the car handled great. An experienced racer who had owned several Camaros asked to ride with me and he couldn't believe how well it handled. Now I just need to match my driving ability to the cars handling ability.
Like the other members have said, spend some time on here doing research. I have spent countless hours in the evening researching what parts to use and also learning how to install them. Good luck!

CBiz18

Iv never raced before, but would like to do just some local autocross and trackdays. Im planning on doing aftermarket sway bars, adjustable lower control arms, and panhard bar. I was thinking about doing the setup like I said earlier, with coilovers in back, and stiffer springs and shocks in front and was wondering if that would be good, because when I read about coilovers, people only talk about the front coilovers and how they damage the strut towers, so I was wondering if guys who knew more about handling would think that would be a good idea. Sorry I probably should have been more clear. And thank you for your input.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Get the best rubbahs and dampahs...
THEN
those rear coil-overs with front weight jacks and 850-950 front springs...
THEN
ext ball joints and jegster phb relocate with adj arms (delshpere joint on axle) and adj TA
THEN
you'll need new rubbahs by now...buy 17 LIGHTWEIGHT wheels and alum hubs.

All throughout, make lots of money and have fun

plum92_camaro

CBiz18, First I'd like to welcome you! Just in the things you've mentioned already, it's obvious you have a lot of research to do. The autoX/Road Race guys don't use front coil overs and most of them also use factory sway bars.

Here is a basic mod list for you and try to stick to this order. You'll be glad you did. Others please feel free to add on because my memory gets a little fuzzy further down the list.
1. Make all necessary repairs especially to steering linkage, ball joints and suspension so you and your car will be safe on the track. A few mods during these repairs isn't a bad idea only so you aren't buying things twice. An example would be ball joints, if your changing them why not go ahead and put in the extended ones now?
2. Driver Mod. Get out there and get some laps in. Everybody thinks they are a great driver and are going to kick tail. 90% of the time they (including me when i started) are WRONG!!! Everyone is fast in the straights but you really do have to learn to be fast in the corners. I cut 6-7 seconds just by learning how to drive better.
3. Wheels and tires. This is a larger expense (about $2k) but a HUGE improvement. Like mentioned about, 17x9 with some 275/40R17s are a great option. Check out CTW motorsports.
4. Struts, shocks and springs. Most go with Koni SA yellows. Weight jacks all around or coil overs in the rear only. http://www.ground-control-store.com/...p/II=966/CA=86

There is a good $3k+ of your money well spent. You get that far, come back and we'll gladly help you with the next step. By then you may have it figured out and be giving this same advice to another newbie. Good luck!

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Ditto on all that. Another mod that I love and think is a great bang for the buck is an adjustable prop valve for the rear brakes. About $40 from Summit and some line bending/flaring. Having cranked up the rear brake effort it really shortens the braking distance going in to a corner. You may find initially that you brake too early because it's pretty freaky at first going fast into a corner and not braking when you think you normally should. Find a quiet area and get up some speed (50 would do) pick a point to start braking and see how short you can stop. Keep trying until you can keep the car on the point of locking up and sliding and you'll be amazed at what the car can do. Then imaging getting a bunch more help from the rear brakes!

rb85TA

I know that this is an old thread.
Looking for the front suspension guru's with my question(s)....this has been/still is a long term project. Going to put my car together with the upgrades I have, so I can drive/enjoy it for now. But the plan is to eventually (once I have all the tools and space sorted out), tare it back down and shoot for the moon. I'm not competing in or on any particular level, just trying to build my dream and give some exotic car guy's bad dreams����. I am going with a custom built 2x3 front rails, tubular front end... keeping the car and strut based setup and going with adjustable coilover struts.
I'm looking at moving the entire front suspension forward 3", (to include the strut towers). The question is: a.) Should I set the towers at the same angle and height? Or b.) Slightly alter the angle and height to achieve better camber/caster?
Thanks for your time and input, best regards.
Rick

plum92_camaro

Sounds like you're reinventing the wheel. You'll be changing wheelbase, weight bias. These cars have a lot of short comings in the front from factory. Ackerman is one example. More caster would help but stock is hard to get more than 6°. I'd you're not familiar with terms like ackerman, you need to study it and Steering Axis Inclination, roll center. You want to go through all that work and fabrication, might as well do it right or it will be a waste of your time and money. These cars handle well and can easily be modified to hurt a lot of feelings. I'd be impressed to see how much, if any, a guy could gain redesigning the front end.

I wouldn't use coil overs in the front of an autoX or road race car, the strut towers were never designed to uphold the weight of the car, but for street or strip UT seems to be ok. Tubular k-member and a-arms only cuts weight, no strength gain.

rb85TA

Thanks plum, not really trying to reinvent , but I am trying to greatly improve the weight distribution of the car. I've seen a few car's that have gone to a tubular front clip, but, they kept the strut towers and suspension in the factory location. I am not building my car purely for looks, or just because I think that it is cool. (Don't get me wrong, I love my TransAm), but I have specific goals in mind.
The engine/ trans is also being moved aft 9" (so you know), I'm not sure just how much of the weight bias I can shift with these mods... but, I believe that I can achieve a much better distribution with them, than not. Dream world, my ideas will give me a 49.5/50.5 distribution (so, as the fuel is burned off, the distribution gets to be more even...or better).

rb85TA

As for the strut towers and coilover's... with a tubular support system and thicker plate to mount the strut to... I'm hoping that it will strengthen the strut suspension to handle the load... of course, if I'm wrong... you're more than welcome to post an "i told you so" in my obituary

rb85TA

I don't know who this guy is, but the work looks really solid.

Beater79TA

This amount of movement will cause a lot of issues with component fitment unless you widen and raise the transmission tunnel. It could also make shifter placement into a manual transmission an interesting proposition. The BMR tubular K member moves the engine back 1/2 inch and it makes fitment tight on the transmission with the stock tunnel. With the use of aluminum in a lot of the front end with a tubular k member and a stereo box in the trunk, we got weight to 53/47 front to rear on the factory suspension points with a Gen 1 SBC under the hood. With the aluminum LS setup currently in the car being set back 1/2 inch, I suspect the distribution is even closer to 50/50 now. And we do road race and autox the car heavily while keeping it comfortable to street drive as well. You can achieve a lot of your goals without the amount of fabrication you are thinking of doing.

If you're going to go all out and strip the car to a race only setup, you should have no problem getting the weight bias you want without setting the engine back that far. Battery to the trunk. Aluminum LS engine with no AC. Tubular crash support in the bumper. All of these will help with the weight bias with far less fabrication required. But if you do fabricate what you are thinking of doing, post up a build thread so we all can get ideas from it.

rb85TA

Beater79, I appreciate that. Any chance you can get the car scaled and give some #'s?
That would really help me in deciding weather or not to do this.
I will still be doing the tube front clip, but more like the picture I posted... providing that I can achieve the weight distribution goals. But, your information has she'd a bit of light on the subject, so, I'm willing to listen

Beater79TA

The last time we scaled it, the car weighed just over 3500 lbs. This is a full interior, fully optioned car with a stereo box in the trunk. The full box with components adds approximately 100lbs to the very rear of the car which helps with the balance.

If I were to build this as a race only car, I could easily trim 400 lbs out of this car. That weight would be fairly evenly distributed with the loss of HVAC from the front and the stereo and rear seats from the back.

If I can find the actual numbers, I will post them.

rb85TA

Thanks Beater79...

CBiz18

Hi guys. Sorry for not updating! Thanks for the guidance.

For the rear, I went with the UMI double adjustable Viking coil over kit, adjustable panhard bar, adjustable control arms with the relocation kit, UMI sway bar, and an IROC diff with 4 wheel discs and little lower gear ratio.

In the front, 2" drop spindles, Koni yellow shocks and caster/camber plates, Spohn sway bar, Moog springs and Wilwood brakes. Also UMI SFC.

I can still go lower in the back. It sits and handles so much better now! Now, for more power....then lighter wheels....then....

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Pretty good progress in 10 months!
I would contact UMI, and see if you can add their axle-side PHB lowering bracket to your order. With the drop spindles (Which ones are you using?), you have raised the front RC (good), and will need that bracket to lower the rear RC just a little.
What Viking part # are you using? Need to make sure you are in the operating range when you lower!
Congrats!

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

That appears to sit very low, do you have any issues with hitting the bump stop or the tires contacting the fenders or wheel wells?

CBiz18

Thanks! It's actually been about 20 months, but who is counting? Forgive me, but what does "RC" stand for?

The Viking number for the coil over kit is 2046 but we went to 200lb springs.

I don't know the manufacturer of the spindles. They are fabricated for the shop that helped set it up.

CBiz18

Yes, it sits low. No issues with tires (245s all around) contacting the fenders or wheel wells yet. From this angle, you can see there is a little more room between the tire and fender than what it looks like in the picture above.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I can't find the Viking part #, you'll have to do your own leg work to find specs - maybe call UMI. Kit is OK, need the shock # and specs.
You're looking for a shock designed for 2" drop - do not settle for someone telling you that - get the specs!
Detroit Speed designed their own Jri coilover at 14" range (stock is 16" range) for ThirdGens. Their collapsed is 12" and extended is 17".
I purchased RideTech (Fox shock) at 14" range, 11.34" collapsed, and 16.5" extended.
If your spec numbers are not very close, you are in trouble and will see shock oil on the pavement very soon- VERIFY!!

RC is Roll Center - you have a lot of searching/reading to do. Search is your little friend.

CBiz18

Thanks for the info! I gave you the Viking number for the coil over KIT. The shock number is C211-W. The specs that were included say "Recommended ride height is 15 1/8"-16 1/2", Shock stroke 6.07", Recommended spring length is 14".

Roll center is what I figured RC was for, but wanted to know for sure that's what you were talking about.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Well, they sold 'ya, alright! That's comparable to QA1 DS601 - look it up.
Your shock is too tall for your intended ride height. By lowering out of range, you will blow out the seals and leak, and you only have about an inch or so of compressed travel at your ride height.
Besides the platinum priced Jri, RideTech HQ6110 is the best out there. I did my homework. Yes, I wanted quality, but I also needed the right range.
You've lowered 2" to 14" - you need a shock that operates at that range. Even if by chance you don't blow seals, you will not be operating the shock at it's intended peak shock curve. You've spent a lot of money - please get the shocks right (rubbahs and dampahs).
I've warned you/given you the information, the rest is up to you.

2slowfox

You have interesting discussion over hear. CBiz18 I like how your car sits on front but rear is too high. What length coilovers are in back? Does 200lbs in rear make the ride very stiff.
Im planning to by QA1 coilovers HS606S-12275 in front and RCK52328 in rear. It will be my DD in summer no racing or anything. Want it to handle and ride good and have a right hight ( no big gaps between wheels and fenders. What do you guys think of this setup. Other than that a have poly bushing everywhere.

rb85TA

The car looks good CBiz18. You want no more than 2% rake f/r, optimal is about 1% for these car's... but, every car handles different! So, general specs (although helpful), will not get there 100%.
You have to fine tune your car to the way you drive and your "feel".
Getting the shock stroke setup right, for your final ride height...will be your best friend.
JMO

CBiz18

I appreciate the information. It sounds like we still have some work to do on the suspension. That will have to wait for a bit though, as more power is next on the list.

CBiz18

Whoops, duplicate post.

rb85TA

Lol, no worries bro... it happens to everyone

Falconiroc

Since mine will be a road/track car, my plans are Full tubular front (kmember, a arms etc) Haven't decided if I'll go coilover or not. Watts link rear.

rb85TA

Falconiroc, I've been told, so now I'll tell you... you're going to be better off running a strut type shock on the front with springs and weight jacks (check out Ground Control.com)

Falconiroc

Thanks rb85TA

rb85TA

no problem at all ,be safe, but have fun

z28cp

If one was to go to that much effort, why wouldn't you make it a double wishbone setup? Get rid of the strut.

rb85TA

probably for the same reason(s), that I wouldn't...
Already have to much money invested in things like, drop spindles, 3rd gen tubular lower A arms and tubular k member, etc...
Combine that with the fact, that with the hood closed and the car sitting on the ground it will have a modified look... but still look like it's a 3rd Gen.