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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
I ran into an interesting issue with my car. First of, I noticed a few quirks with my 92 RS when I bought it 3 years ago, a small stress crack in the top and a bent panhard rod bracket. I was thinking the car had been ditched at some point in its life so I thought nothing of it...
Until I decided to try and find out exactly what kind of accident it was in. When I titled it back in 2012, the Virginia DMV printed me off a vehicle history report and it had nothing of interest on it (furthering my ditched theory). I thought maybe CarFax would give me some info on what dealer it came from just for my knowledge. (My first Camaro was sold out of Columbus, GA, and was a soldiers car all its life)
I got a hit on an accident. On 9/3/93, its first owner was reported as well as a salvage title issued! It was then transported to Kentucky and the salvage title wasnt reported, hence, no issues on my title.
Now I want to know what dealer actually had the car on their showroom floor. How would I go about finding that out?
I ran into an interesting issue with my car. First of, I noticed a few quirks with my 92 RS when I bought it 3 years ago, a small stress crack in the top and a bent panhard rod bracket. I was thinking the car had been ditched at some point in its life so I thought nothing of it...
Until I decided to try and find out exactly what kind of accident it was in. When I titled it back in 2012, the Virginia DMV printed me off a vehicle history report and it had nothing of interest on it (furthering my ditched theory). I thought maybe CarFax would give me some info on what dealer it came from just for my knowledge. (My first Camaro was sold out of Columbus, GA, and was a soldiers car all its life)
I got a hit on an accident. On 9/3/93, its first owner was reported as well as a salvage title issued! It was then transported to Kentucky and the salvage title wasnt reported, hence, no issues on my title.
Now I want to know what dealer actually had the car on their showroom floor. How would I go about finding that out?
You can contact GM archives and order a copy of the original dealer invoice. It will show the dealer it was originally shipped to as well as the list of options.
Maybe. The invoice for my 91 Formula doesn't list the dealer. At least not in any way that makes sense without a database of dealership ID numbers from that time.
Mine is listed on my original window sticker. When I ordered a reproduction from PHS, it also had it on there, so somehow they know because I didn't provide them with a copy of my original as reference.
I have been looking on the GM Archives web page and don't see how to order a VIN history. Anyone?
If you're looking for "carfax" type info for your car I don't think GM Archives is the place to go. About all you can do to get a service history on your car is Carfax or possibly a GM dealer. Another option is Autocheck by Experian which is similar to Carfax. GM archives will simply provide you with a copy of the invoice they sent the dealer ahead of shipping your car to them. It will have a breakdown of RPO codes, a description of each RPO and cost figures. As mentioned above it may or may not provide dealer info, although mine did.
Is that odd? I have gotten invoices for several of my ThirdGens over the years (4 - 1988s and 1 - 1992) and all had the dealership listed by name and physical address on the invoice copy. My '92 T/A was ordered through GM's Military overseas program and is listed.
Originally Posted by Drew
Maybe. The invoice for my 91 Formula doesn't list the dealer. At least not in any way that makes sense without a database of dealership ID numbers from that time.
Thanks for all the quick responses. Im gonna go ahead and get the dealer invoice. I just find it odd that it was titled in georgia, first owner with no miles as a salvage title. Maybe a freak accident at the dealership? Or some "kid" at the time destroying it on a test drive? Who knows.
I have the original title number for it, maybe the GA DMV can shed some light on the reason for salvage titling.
Idk, maybe. My invoice says "Ship to: 27-361". And where other invoices list the receiving dealer, my invoice says...
50-094
GEN SVC ADM-FIN DIV-ACCTS PAYABLES
P.O. BOX 419018 (6BCP-F)
KANSAS CITY MO 64141
Apparently it has something to do with the car being purchased for the government. That address is the US GSA, which manages the federal government's motor pool. I don't know the car's exact history except that it had a lot of equipment mounted in it at one point, and a Sti-co covert antenna adapter.
Does anyone have one of these GM media archive sheets they could share a picture of? (Blocking out any identifying info of course.)
I wouldn't mind getting a couple of these if they are worth the $50.00 each. But why do they need all the body tag info? Are they using that along with the vin to re-create the invoice, or do they truly have all that info already & they want to confirm you have the vehicle in your possession?
That part seems a bit odd.
Originally Posted by thecaminator
I got a hit on an accident. On 9/3/93, its first owner was reported as well as a salvage title issued! It was then transported to Kentucky and the salvage title wasnt reported, hence, no issues on my title.
In the very early 90's I was buying late model cars & rebuilding them as a hobby. One of the 87 Iroc's I was working on was hit hard in the front right. Upon rebuilding it, I found it was already in a big accident & had some work done to it. The car was only 5 years old & probably totaled for its second time. But, it still had a clean title in my possession. If I would have known that I probably wound not have bought it That stuff wasn't documented all that well back then, so its not too surprising that a car could have a bit of a unknown or hidden history. It was so common for people to take their insurance check after an accident & then sell the car themselves & the car would slip under the radar.
Last edited by F-body-fan; 09-02-2016 at 05:49 AM.
In the very early 90's I was buying late model cars & rebuilding them as a hobby. One of the 87 Iroc's I was working on was hit hard in the front right. Upon rebuilding it, I found it was already in a big accident & had some work done to it. The car was only 5 years old & probably totaled for its second time. But, it still had a clean title in my possession. If I would have known that I probably wound not have bought it That stuff wasn't documented all that well back then, so its not too surprising that a car could have a bit of a unknown or hidden history. It was so common for people to take their insurance check after an accident & then sell the car themselves & the car would slip under the radar.
I totally could see that. I just found it odd that the first owner with near zero miles had it titled as a salvage car. It made it 200,000 miles after that so it isnt too bad or they fixed it pretty good. The PO changed a whole bunch of stuff and hackjob'd quite a few other things and I'm currently in the process of getting it all back to correct. My first Camaro, the console had never been removed and a soldier really loved the thing, and left a letter to whoever found it to take care of his baby, and it destroyed him to part with it. With it, he left the dealer invoice, build sheet, and a picture of the car new.
Does anyone have one of these GM media archive sheets they could share a picture of? (Blocking out any identifying info of course.)
I wouldn't mind getting a couple of these if they are worth the $50.00 each. But why do they need all the body tag info? Are they using that along with the vin to re-create the invoice, or do they truly have all that info already & they want to confirm you have the vehicle in your possession?
That part seems a bit odd.
Nicely optioned car & my favorite color! Do you feel it was a value for the $50 spent?
Why do you suppose they need the trim tag info from the car? that still seems odd to me. Do they use the info that is affixed to the car to create part of the options on the invoice? I see they have the invoice number on it, so whats the purpose of that? verification / comfirmation?
Was always amazed at the 5.7 costing an extra $1000. The cost to mfg the engine over the 5.0 is peanuts. Dang near the same engine. I wonder if that price was to offset EPA stuff, and try to prevent too many 5.7 powered cars being produced. OR (and most likely) GM knew the gear head buyers would pay that amount for the few extra ponies.
Last edited by F-body-fan; 09-02-2016 at 11:50 AM.
Thanks, I don't remember providing trim tag info to GM archives IIRC. Just the VIN, although they may be requiring additional info now. Yes I think it was $50 well spent and it allowed me the info I needed to reproduce my window sticker.
Last edited by GASPEDDLER; 09-02-2016 at 12:27 PM.
I did not need trim tag info when I ordered my invoice. Just the Vin. I don't have a pic of mine, however the person who ordered the car new happened to be a GM employee, therefore his name was on the invoice. That, along with the location of the original dealer was worth the fifty dollars to me.
I used the info to have a window sticker made also.
Trim tag info is if you are ordering information for earlier cars and other model cars, not our Thirdgens. In 1980 or so VINs were standardized to contain a lot of information, but also is enough info for GM to search for the Thirdgen dealer invoices available for most of our cars.
I picked up a very nice parts car that is gonna revitalize mine. It appears that they lifted some body panels from a blue Camaro. The cheap paint job they gave it along the right side of the car is flaking off and I've found some questionable welding in the right rear wheelwell. I'm going to order the archives stuff here by the end of the month.
I wonder if I'd be barking up the wrong tree if I tried to contact the GA DMV and asked about it, or if I contacted the dealership to see if it happened while in their possession, maybe they have documentation on the accident.
Either which way, this Camaro is staying with me until the end. #8 was the charm
Click at the top at vehicle invoice, then ordering instructions.
I circled back to this thread from last year. Being a bit sceptic, I am wondering why they need so much data on the order form? Made me think they would just make up a generic order sheet if they didn't have your car by vin "on file" ? Would that explain why they don't always have the dealer info on the sheet? $50 seems like enough for a PDF of something that may, or may not be accurate? Seems to me they should really only need the VIN?
I would order one, but I would have no interest in them making up an invoice based on the options I provide them with. I know I mentioned this a few posts up. Just curious what others have found that have ordered them. Might order a few & don't want to be disappointed. Can I only provide the Vin? I suppose I should try to contact them....
I circled back to this thread from last year. Being a bit sceptic, I am wondering why they need so much data on the order form? Made me think they would just make up a generic order sheet if they didn't have your car by vin "on file" ? Would that explain why they don't always have the dealer info on the sheet? $50 seems like enough for a PDF of something that may, or may not be accurate? Seems to me they should really only need the VIN?
I would order one, but I would have no interest in them making up an invoice based on the options I provide them with. I know I mentioned this a few posts up. Just curious what others have found that have ordered them. Might order a few & don't want to be disappointed. Can I only provide the Vin? I suppose I should try to contact them....
This is what they sent me for $50. IMO, the only thing of value that I didn't already have or have knowledge of was the dealer invoice.
Regarding the dealer invoice, the only information that I didn't have was the invoice price and the name of the dealer the car was shipped to.
Were these two pieces of information worth $50? Yeah, kind of. I have an obsessive urge about needing to know so I spent the $50. I'm the second owner of the car so I now know pretty much what I need to know about where my car came from.
With regards to the invoice comment #2:
Note that the key codes are missing. This is SOP as only the dealer original invoice shows these.
Also, the invoice only shows 39% of the RPO codes that appear on the SPID label, so it's not all inclusive. YMMV
I have a feeling that Pontiac owner's will get a lot more information about their particular car for their $50 than Chevrolet owners simply because Pontiac just kept better records.
My disappointment hat is on. Looks like when you click on Invoice Availability to the right, you can only go back to 1987 for Pontiac. Guess I can't get one for my 82 Trans Am. I can get one for my 79 Caprice Coupe though apparently and my 89 Firebird.
I have a feeling that Pontiac owner's will get a lot more information about their particular car for their $50 than Chevrolet owners simply because Pontiac just kept better records.
Nope. While GM's White Book scans, generic vin decoder, etc are pretty lame, the PHS packet was just as lame. A packet of obscure data like official measurements of passenger foot space, a page about storing your Pontiac long term, a photocopied sheet with some very basic production numbers (nothing very specific), the same exact high-lightered copy of the invoice, and a black and white 8.5x11" photo of the basic model Firebird like you'd find in a press kit. In other words, whether its the GM Media Archive, or PHS, etc you're really just paying for a copy of the invoice, and you get a bunch of fluff that's not at all specific to your car. It's kind of a rip for $50. If you OWN the car, GM should be willing to help out with documentation a bit more reasonably.
It made a lot more sense when it was a free (relatively) service.
Wait...the "yellow highlighter"....the redacted invoice #, order #, and VIN (which you already supplied to them, so why blank that out)...that was done by THEM? I thought you did that before posting it here to protect your identity.
So if the docs they send you can't be proven to apply to your vehicle (IE: No VIN), then they aren't a lot of help in actually documenting the car, are they?
Like Drew said, they used to provide the info for free and it came unredacted. My invoice has the key codes, dealer info, etc, with absolutely nothing blacked out.
Wait...the "yellow highlighter"....the redacted invoice #, order #, and VIN (which you already supplied to them, so why blank that out)...that was done by THEM? I thought you did that before posting it here to protect your identity.
I didn't look too closely at the image earlier in the thread. I assumed the yellow blocks were high-lighted in yellow because PHS used yellow highlighter to emphasize the important details on the invoice.
Nothing is redacted on my PHS invoice circa 2000 A.D.
If you NEED the key codes, they're generally stamped on the original ignition cylinders. The door cylinders can be disassembled and decoded by a locksmith. But please note that you need the DOOR lock because the ttop locks, trunk glovebox, blah blah dont always have as many tumblers. Sorry for the offtopic wander, but before someone asks...
Imagine if you will, a world where you didn't have SPID labels, or factory documentation and were trying to authenticate a car then? That's what Buick, Oldsmobile and some Chevrolet owners have to deal with.
We are VERY lucky to have access to the documentation that we do. We can look up any third gen we want and get an invoice for it!
Back in the early 80's I got an phone number from a friend to somewhere inside GM to an office where a few girls would look up invoices for me. After 1985 or 86 when I met Fred Simmonds at the POCI meet, I was able to call him directly & it was all free.
The first ones from the girls came with the costs & key codes redacted - the VIN was always there....
After that, when I was getting them from Fred it was just the costs....
Fred did it on his own time, for free, and was happy to do so. Then at some point his address got posted in the back of High Performance Pontiac and the flood gates opened! He was inundated with requests, more than he could handle and the idea of PHS came about.
Jim stepped in and using microfiche machines that were decades old and films that were even older started looking up invoices and would even fax them out to you! If you got to know Jim you could call in a number and if you were really good friends with him and you happened to catch him in the office, he would look up an invoice for you while you were standing in front of the car! The extra items that went into the mailed envelope were there to add some value but you were really paying for the overhead to hold onto the official record of your invoice.
In some cases cars came with multiple invoices because they were company cars - you didn't have to pay for the extras - they just showed up - like the ones above. My 71 GTO convertible was driven new by a Pontiac Executive and was delivered to PMD headquarters after first going through the engineering department - they told us what all those numbers meant too!
Fred Simmonds went through the old invoices MANUALLY and produced production totals that we wouldn't have by any other means. This was laborious and time consuming but invaluable that we have it today.
Now GM & PHS had a falling out and at one point all of this came to a screaming halt. Nobody could get anything, in fact GM actually took all of the documentation and threw it in dumpsters! Jim got tipped off and with his son, fished it out of the dumpsters and brought it to his office. A lawsuit ensued and after great expense (on our behalf) Jim was found to be in the right and was able to keep the documents. He is however only allowed to provide up to a certain year and that is where the GM Heritage Center comes in.
Jim is not well off because of PHS, Jim is well off despite PHS! PHS did not make Jim a rich man, he was well off before that. It is something he does because of his passion, like Fred did before him. Kevin Marti does it for Ford, Galen Govier does it for Dodge & Plymouth - both of them charging more.
The GM Heritage center now provides documentation for us on some of our cars - that information is invaluable as well. For very few dollars you can send in a VIN and find out exactly how a particular car was built! Did it have an LG4 or an L98? Was it a 4, a 5 speed or an automatic? Was it special in any way?
Without it, try to figure out if a car is valuable, original or modified when you have nothing to go by. No they don't give us every single RPO code but sometimes that's part of the fun, not having everything done for you and figuring things out on your own.
Not really. No one is really crying about anything, we're just discussing the reality of what you receive for your money. It's no different than discussions about any other vendor.
For about $50 you get a photocopy of an invoice, some copies of pages from the white book, or other similar general info. The bulk of what they give you can be found elsewhere. In the GM Archives case you can download almost all of it aside from the invoice right off the public website.
It's not exactly a spectacular value for the 99% that have an ordinary thirdgen, or their SPID, etc. That's not really crying, it's just helping others to be more realistic about their expectations.
Read back through Drew - one guy thinks they make it up and several have their "disappointment hats on" whatever the heck that is.
No, it's not for everyone - the guy dropping in the LS & T56 doesn't need one but the guy restoring the Recaro Edition does. The guy pulling out the Iron Duke doesn't but the guy that sees half of a 500 emblem on his dash should.
Generational thing too - everything is free & easy or it should be - right?
It doesn't have to be free, but $50 to plug 17 characters into a computer and clicking print, seems a little excessive.
The disappointment comes from expecting more than just an invoice. The GM media archive website is clear about what to expect, PHS not so much. As long as a person knows going in that they're buying a copy of the invoice, and everything else is just gravy, they shouldnt be too disappointed.
In the case of our third gens that may be true that they can simply type in the numbers and everything has been digitized and sequenced and the invoice appears - I don't know. That optical scanning technology did not exist at the time these cars were built however and although most of us have scanners and robust computers in our homes today, the hottest thing going when these cars were built was the IBM AT.
I do know however that the ones that come from PHS are still printed off the same decades old microfiche machines - a laborious task of hunting and finding the one invoice that matches your VIN.
$50 is not a lot of money - it's a week's worth of half calf lattes, a night of beers & cover charge at a bar with friends or about 2 hours in a strip joint. It is however an invaluable piece of paperwork for anyone who owns a third gen - whether they have every piece of documentation from new or none of it, a rare car or not we are lucky to have it available.
$50 is not a lot of money - it's a week's worth of half calf lattes, a night of beers & cover charge at a bar with friends or about 2 hours in a strip joint.
I don't **** away my money on any of those things either.
I'm glad I have my Formula's invoice, as for the rest of my thirdgens, I know what they are. A piece of paper isn't going to change anything.
Just my opinion on the info packets after reading this thread.
As far as PHS goes for the older Pontiac's, true, it's not cheap at what is now $65.00. I feel it's still worth the money for an older muscle car though because you get validation of all the options beyond color & body type found on the trim tag. Theres really no other way to do that & I am thankful to have PHS packets for all my older 60's & 70's cars. I will say however, on many of the 60's cars (other than 1969) you don't get much at all. In that thick packet that comes in the mail, I threw most of it in the garbage. Like mentioned above, its all common stuff available everywhere on the web that is not specific to the car you have. Only thing useful is one page that is a copy of that micro fish film PurelyPMD talked about. Comes with a copy of an order sheet, but its generic & not specific to the car. just yellow highlighter on the options that are taken from the card.
Now, what I am getting from you guys on the GM archives, sounds like its about the same info & possibly even better than PHS (depending on the years we compare) But, with most of the third gens having an RPO sticker in the car, that makes figuring out these cars easy. So what your really getting from that service is the selling dealer & prices. Sounds like something I would still buy if the cars had no document no with them.
I still wonder about GM archives have that area for putting in all the options on the older cars. Looks like you could create a RAIII car with weird options & get an invoice for it
Last edited by F-body-fan; 03-25-2017 at 07:11 AM.
Hold on PurelyPMD. There's no whining from me, and I'm not upset about the cost.
What I don't like is that it appears the documents I will receive will not have my VIN on them. And I think that is a VERY REAL concern when buying documentation. To me, that makes them fairly worthless in documenting a car, because you can't prove the docs APPLY to the car in question. In my case, I could send the VIN for any '88 T/A, and create a very misleading paper trail. Or, at least a worthless one. Do you disagree with that?
I have a tremendous appreciation for the people responsible for saving and providing this info. I come from a MOPAR background. All of my cars 1970 and later. The data is gone. The manufacturer dumped it all. Very little still exists. A lot of what Galen can do is based on president, knowledge of manufacturing processes, etc. Hard docs for later cars are nearly impossible to come by. So yes, comparatively, Chevy and Pontiac guys have it easy.
Hold on PurelyPMD. There's no whining from me, and I'm not upset about the cost.
What I don't like is that it appears the documents I will receive will not have my VIN on them. And I think that is a VERY REAL concern when buying documentation. To me, that makes them fairly worthless in documenting a car, because you can't prove the docs APPLY to the car in question. In my case, I could send the VIN for any '88 T/A, and create a very misleading paper trail. Or, at least a worthless one. Do you disagree with that?
I have a tremendous appreciation for the people responsible for saving and providing this info. I come from a MOPAR background. All of my cars 1970 and later. The data is gone. The manufacturer dumped it all. Very little still exists. A lot of what Galen can do is based on president, knowledge of manufacturing processes, etc. Hard docs for later cars are nearly impossible to come by. So yes, comparatively, Chevy and Pontiac guys have it easy.
Yes I disagree with that.
Who told you or why are you under the impression your VIN will not be on the documentation. Are VINs missing on any of the ones I posted? PHS or GM Heritage? Look again!
Although he hasn't responded, I'd strongly suspect the member blocked the VIN out for personal reasons before posting the document online. The cleanness of it too, given the invoices are generally not in the best condition, also suggests it was done after.
Regarding the key codes, many years ago we had a women here who would pull and mail the invoices for free. I think I remember she started to block the key codes out on those free ones after she had some concerns for security.
Originally Posted by DynoDave43
What I don't like is that it appears the documents I will receive will not have my VIN on them. And I think that is a VERY REAL concern when buying documentation. To me, that makes them fairly worthless in documenting a car, because you can't prove the docs APPLY to the car in question. In my case, I could send the VIN for any '88 T/A, and create a very misleading paper trail. Or, at least a worthless one. Do you disagree with that?
Entirely possible JT. And if that is correct...the VIN is a part of the docs. you receive, then I'm good to go. But if there are sold as shown here, they're not of much value to me.
Wait...the "yellow highlighter"....the redacted invoice #, order #, and VIN (which you already supplied to them, so why blank that out)...that was done by THEM? I thought you did that before posting it here to protect your identity.
So if the docs they send you can't be proven to apply to your vehicle (IE: No VIN), then they aren't a lot of help in actually documenting the car, are they?
I redacted the Order No. and VIN. The copy of the invoice that was sent to me matches the VIN of my vehicle.
Since what I received was a copy (who knows if it was a copy of the original, a copy of a copy, a print out of a microfiche copy or original...whatever) I suppose if one wanted to really split hairs, it can be argued that what I received was a made up document.
Edit: Compare the VIN sticker on the hood with VIN that appears on the attachment (hopefully, they match).
Last edited by paulo57509; 03-28-2017 at 11:16 AM.
I've been debating on whether or not to get a correct dealer license plate frame (I only have the front plate mounted). Some guy in Salinas has a mint pair for $200 (screw that). They're early "red" frames (I think) and not the more period correct blue/green.
Since I'm the 2nd owner and bought the car from a Toyota dealership, their frame was the first thing I removed and tossed in the trash.
09-01-2016, 04:00 AM
