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Anyone have any experience on the 13" front track 4 system from Baer Brakes? Are they worth the money?
I'm debating upping to that from my stock kit this summer. Looks like the spindles are already set, and that they'd be a direct bolt on whihc would be nice. Another added bonus is that if I want to upgrade my suspension a bit, I'm thinking with these spindles the clearance work should be already done.
I have some 18 in Boyd Magneatos w/the stock offset, and it looks like the kit adds 0.400 in of track width increase per side. Any thoughts on fitment would be appreciated. I really want as close to a "direct bolt on" as I can find. Other suggestions are welcomed, but if there's a lot of fab work to be done I probably wouldn't be interested. Car stops like crap now, especially compared to my C5 vette.
Both require end user modification to the stock spindles right? Are you talking about the ones from big brake upgrade? Two problems i had with those kits are 1) I wasn't sure if i'd have clearance issues w/my boyds, and 2) i didn't want something that said corvette on my camaro. My (still) biggest concern is fitment.
Not sure why there would be big clearance issues, but many guys on here can get you dims if you need to check anything. You cut the heat shield arm off the spindle and tap a hole. If you don't want to do the work, they offer spindles you can buy already modded. So it is all bolt on.
As for the calipers saying Corvette... Could grind it off and re power coat, but that would be a pain. I believe the C7 units are just a pad printing thing, no embossing. Might be able to simply acetone (or some other agent) the letters off.
Brembo ctsv or 5th gen brakes i think are a better bang for buck
You also could run a c5 13" kit with the camaro 4th gen caliper if you dont want the powdercoated corvette name ones. Basically same caliper but the vette one is cast differently
What you really need to figure out here is, What is your plan with the cars usage? If you are gonna track this car, whether autox or road course, I would recommend a BAER or Wilwood kit. The calipers from either kit are are an improvement over most OE calipers with extreme heat and abuse built into their design. The BAER brakes kit is very simple to install as it does come mounted on the spindle. The BAER kits include a their aluminum hubs which help reduce the rotating mass which you are not gonna find anywhere. The DBA rotors which BAER uses are to notch parts and sure to give you trouble free operation for many years.
The above recommendations are not bad, and I'm not contradicting their recommendations. It is cheaper to use a OE caliper/rotor package. Any brake upgrade is an upgrade to cruddy factory brakes by a long shot. The CTSV V2 Brembo calipers in my eyes are the only OE caliper worth the effort, and they aren't really all the cheap either.
If you got the cash, and plan on REALLY using it... BAER
I do a bit of brake work over here in Australia and use Baer's stuff quite frequently as well as OE. A lot of guys (over here anyway) forget whilst OE stuff is cheaper its usually second hand too.
When you buy Baer your also buying calipers that are made in the USA from US sourced materials and not many manufacturer's can say that. Their stuff really works on and off the street.
The other thing to watch out for which we get a lot of here in Australia is chinese Brembos. If the caliper doesn't have "Brembo Italy" cast into it, then it's most likely a chinese casting. In most circumstances still made by Brembo but Brembo China (hopefully).
The other thing you get with Baer is great product backing. Any issues I have ever had, (only 2 over the past 6 years) even though I'm on the otherside of the world, always recieved great tech support.
Sometimes it's worth holding off and saving a bit of extra cash to get whats more appropriate to your use and it will cost twice as much to do a brake upgrade twice, particularly when you need to modify the spindle.
I bought the complete kit from Big Brake Upgrade. I got the C6 Z51 front brakes and used Baer 2 pc rotors. I then converted from m drum to disc in the back ad used NOS PBR calipers and 13" Bear 2 pc rotors. I will be changing out the spring in the proportioning valve tonight and doing one final system bleed.
I do not autoX my car...yet and I don't push it to it limits either so my brake upgrade was mainly for looks . I will tell you that the car stopped so much better with just the front upgrade. I cant wait to get her out of the garage this spring to see how she stops now that the rear disc upgrade is installed.
I have one of the very first Baer 3rd gen track kits on my 84 and have a 13" C4HD kit with Wilwood FSL calipers that is going on my 89 soon.
When you buy a kit, it is much easier to buy one where the kit is assembled on the spindles and you remove old spindle and replace. Some are capable of piecing together parts, but why bother for something standard issue?
4 piston calipers from Baer or Wilwood are much better than anything OEM 2 piston - but depending on your car (and if you race it), you may never even notice the difference.
You will have more brake than tire regardless - it is normal for a 2 piston 13" kit to haul down a 3rd gen in around 105ft on 245-50-16 rubber.
Originally Posted by BADNBLK
What you really need to figure out here is, What is your plan with the cars usage? If you are gonna track this car, whether autox or road course, I would recommend a BAER or Wilwood kit. The calipers from either kit are are an improvement over most OE calipers with extreme heat and abuse built into their design. The BAER brakes kit is very simple to install as it does come mounted on the spindle. The BAER kits include a their aluminum hubs which help reduce the rotating mass which you are not gonna find anywhere. The DBA rotors which BAER uses are to notch parts and sure to give you trouble free operation for many years.
The above recommendations are not bad, and I'm not contradicting their recommendations. It is cheaper to use a OE caliper/rotor package. Any brake upgrade is an upgrade to cruddy factory brakes by a long shot. The CTSV V2 Brembo calipers in my eyes are the only OE caliper worth the effort, and they aren't really all the cheap either.
If you got the cash, and plan on REALLY using it... BAER
Yea I piece together my kit ctsv v1 only outsource the bracket and hub
If I where to do it all over again for street car I would do 13" c4hd and if I where to to track oriented build I would go bear or wilwood setup or v2 setup if wanted to save some money
Because any big brake upgrade will outpower majority of street tires and if your lock up you won't be stopping effectively like said above and going to need some sticky front tire and even then there no warmed up to 100% of the potential especially true on majority street driven cars out there and let's face most are not spending alot in tire department only handful that I seen and on this forum so that further reduces complete ability to fully utilize your brakes
If your brakes can easily overpower your tires, its time for bigger tires!!!!
I had a 14" Baer s6 set for a while and it was fantastic (i believe BADNBLK has the set now), but still overpowered my front wheels with good 295's. My only gripe if that a lot of their parts are proprietary to Baer and are not interchangeable. I'm also not a fan of their aluminum hubs, they look like cheep toys next to a kore3 hub.
You can spend a zillion $ on big brakes and still not improve your braking beyond the traction limit of your tires. I laugh every time I see an article about cars with the big $ ceramic front rotors and the writers are all disappointed about how the braking distance is exactly the same as the iron rotor version. Man those writers should take a class in basic engineering dynamics to get grasp of the basics...
Tires make all the difference in braking - considering that front tires take about 70% of the braking force. So not only do you want an aggressive, sticky tread - but also as wide as possible. A 275 or 295 tire up front with a good 13" kit puts you into the 95' range stopping from 60mph - something modern supercars can't even match. This is also why I don't like small tires up front in a staggered wheel arrangement (small is something in the 245 or 255 range).
Originally Posted by Zach/90\irocZ
Yea I piece together my kit ctsv v1 only outsource the bracket and hub
If I where to do it all over again for street car I would do 13" c4hd and if I where to to track oriented build I would go bear or wilwood setup or v2 setup if wanted to save some money
Because any big brake upgrade will outpower majority of street tires and if your lock up you won't be stopping effectively like said above and going to need some sticky front tire and even then there no warmed up to 100% of the potential especially true on majority street driven cars out there and let's face most are not spending alot in tire department only handful that I seen and on this forum so that further reduces complete ability to fully utilize your brakes
I had 285 with decent tire as well I think if abs was incorporated in the mix results would be far better but still overpowered my tires
I had nitto nt55 iirc don't qoute but it was there street legal track tire and my lord those things grip
But alot guys I see locally and on forum don't do as such
Originally Posted by //<86TA>\\
If your brakes can easily overpower your tires, its time for bigger tires!!!!
I had a 14" Baer s6 set for a while and it was fantastic (i believe BADNBLK has the set now), but still overpowered my front wheels with good 295's. My only gripe if that a lot of their parts are proprietary to Baer and are not interchangeable. I'm also not a fan of their aluminum hubs, they look like cheep toys next to a kore3 hub.
All that said, I'd use them again
Yea seen many articles of such lol there's local guy I know running v2 CTS v and fronts only about 8.5 and I'm like bro why lol
Originally Posted by paul_huryk
Good points.
You can spend a zillion $ on big brakes and still not improve your braking beyond the traction limit of your tires. I laugh every time I see an article about cars with the big $ ceramic front rotors and the writers are all disappointed about how the braking distance is exactly the same as the iron rotor version. Man those writers should take a class in basic engineering dynamics to get grasp of the basics...
Tires make all the difference in braking - considering that front tires take about 70% of the braking force. So not only do you want an aggressive, sticky tread - but also as wide as possible. A 275 or 295 tire up front with a good 13" kit puts you into the 95' range stopping from 60mph - something modern supercars can't even match. This is also why I don't like small tires up front in a staggered wheel arrangement (small is something in the 245 or 255 range).
Car won't be tracked. Basically the stockers suck, and I want to replace them. I was debating the big brake upgrade, but wasn't sure on fitment with the Boyd wheels I have. Guys at big brake weren't overly responsive to a couple questions either. First email ..sure. Follow up couple seem to have fallen on deaf ears. My requirements if it helps:
1) Not track driven, but need something better than the crap stock brakes.
2) I have plenty of tire - 18x8 up front, with a 4.5 backspace. I'd have to check, but pretty sure running 245/55/18. or something close.
3) I don't want it to say Corvette, dumb as it may sound on any calipers that I get. I have a C5. If i want to drive a car that says corvette all over it...i'll just hop in one.
4) When it comes to "piecing it together" and "modifying this, that or the other thing" i'm really not interested. I want a bolt on kit. I'm willing to pay an extra hundred or so, maybe 2 for a bolt on kit.
5) I don't want to have to hunt for replacement parts - especially for something hobbled together. Pads, rotors, lines should all be easily sourced - online or in person at an auto parts store. Dont care either way.
That said - the 4 piston set from Baer caught my eye. Direct bolt on, don't say vette, reputable vendor, replacement parts easy to come by, kit not pieced together from a hodgepodge of crap, and didn't mess up my track width too much (I think .8" overall)? Any other suggestions on those criteria welcomed and encouraged. Pic of the car :
You talking about the guy http://bigbrakeupgrade.com he usually pretty good at responding he is a one man show iirc last time I chat with him I used to have his direct email but lock out of my account I do know it's faster to email then over phone
Keep in mind most big brake upgrade regardless of brand utilizes 1le hub so front track will widen slightly
18x8 isn't plenty of tire still stock with you need atleast a 9.5 wide minimum but that's entirely up to you as that's subjective
Replacement parts if you piece together or bear or whoever is all the same actually just different name stamp on side or oe as far as bear iirc some brake pads you can get at auto store and other calipers you can't I could be wrong been awhile
No matter what you be happy any route you take and as far as track width your front tire is small so should be fine as hmfar as track width which moves out about little less than .5"
I stuffed 18x10's out back with some 285's, but tried to keep the front profile somewhat close to stock.
His Camaro SS kit is 1700 with the spindle conversion. Looks like it's neglecting hoses - add another 90 for his hoses. So that's what - 300 off the Baer kit. So - question is, is the Baer kit worth 200$ difference? Which is better - big brake upgrade on brembro 4 pistons with the camaro label for about 1800, or 2100 for the Baer?
And IIRC - are his calipers new, used or reman? I feel like they're used, but I may be mistaken...
Yea stock width your front is hurting performance wise when I had budnik wheels 18x10 and 18x8 and step to 18x100 all around major difference with cornering stopping etc even with stock brakes
Price difference is minimal it's outlet personal preference
Shipping will add to those prices as well
And one other reason I wouldnt do and spend more for bear is rotor replacement
2010 up brembo rotors used on ctsv corvette Camaro needs the rotor machined for hub and lugs to fit good and well unless you get Kore hub which iirc can get in 5x120 pattern as far hub clearance idk
As far as calipers not sure I price together my kit for around 700 ish bucks only bought the brackets and hub from him got rotors from AutoZone and used 1le brake lines also from AutoZone and calipers I got of eBay or Craigslist iirc but they where used had no issues with them
That's my experience and prob be happy with c4hd setup and or would get bear setup for 4 piston and up just because of rotor replacement alone finding a machine shop locally when you need a rotor replace is a bit of a hassle at least for me
If you got the money go bear or wilwood if your trying to save I'll go 13" c4 with good quality pads and rotors or a zo6 brake setup is a option as well older version zo6 not new is option too rotors are direct fit but I know the bear wilwood and brembo has the wow look factor that is appealing
I stuffed 18x10's out back with some 285's, but tried to keep the front profile somewhat close to stock.
His Camaro SS kit is 1700 with the spindle conversion. Looks like it's neglecting hoses - add another 90 for his hoses. So that's what - 300 off the Baer kit. So - question is, is the Baer kit worth 200$ difference? Which is better - big brake upgrade on brembro 4 pistons with the camaro label for about 1800, or 2100 for the Baer?
And IIRC - are his calipers new, used or reman? I feel like they're used, but I may be mistaken...
Last edited by Zach/90\irocZ; 02-27-2017 at 10:34 PM.
Yup brakes are only as good as the tire compound and size you use. That said i am on a 255 18" up front with c5 fronts ls1 rears with hawks pads. With hydroboost assist it is more than plenty to bring 3800 lbs down from 170 mph blasts in very short time... Track has a relatively short shutdown length and i never felt scared. Very impressed with such a cheap oem kit. Not sure how it holds up to autox road course heat but hasnt let me down on hard street rapid braking tests
Yes that's what I'm saying the lugs and center bore needs to be machine wasn't sure if you knew or not but c7 and 5th and 6th gen Camaro have the 5x120 bolt pattern as all newer GM cars do
If you get OEM brakes would recommend c6 and below OEM offerings or get bear wilwood
Knowing what I know now I'll do 13" OEM setup untill I had money from bear wilwood or go straight to bear wilwood if I had the funds From my experience if I had to do it all again
Originally Posted by KCobain147
So you're saying the brembo replacement rotors would need machine work to fit? That alone may push me to baer or wilwood.
Most then likley heat stress fractures from cross drill area it depends on how you use brakes
Originally Posted by BOTTLEDZ28
C6 Z06 front calipers have been known to fail. Scott at BBU recommended that I use Z51 calipers instead so thats what I went with and I cant complain.
Yes auto x and road course demand alot more from brakes with the heat cycling etc kinda like braking back to back to back drag racing brakes are allowed to cool down in-between runs
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
Yup brakes are only as good as the tire compound and size you use. That said i am on a 255 18" up front with c5 fronts ls1 rears with hawks pads. With hydroboost assist it is more than plenty to bring 3800 lbs down from 170 mph blasts in very short time... Track has a relatively short shutdown length and i never felt scared. Very impressed with such a cheap oem kit. Not sure how it holds up to autox road course heat but hasnt let me down on hard street rapid braking tests
Last edited by Zach/90\irocZ; 03-01-2017 at 10:28 PM.
No - i definitely wasn't aware of the difference in bolt pattern. Definitely something I don't feel like dealing with, and appreciate the advice on that. The "if i had to do it all over again" i think is kinda what's selling me to the baer kit more. Saving the money going with a C5 or C6 kit would be nice, but as i mentioned I don't want to deal with the hassle of fitment / clearance issues or sourcing parts. I don't mind paying a bit extra up front to make my life easier down the line.
I understand you can by modified spindle and bracket hub all together and go to auto store or Rock auto for loaded caliper and rotor you won't have no fitments issues you keep saying many people don't these upgrades either kit or piece together but post pics on what ever you get
I didnt have to do anything on my c5 kit i got from ebmiller / flynbye? on this board years ago. Guess he already did the machining? But i also ran c6 wheels so is that a difference?
No - i definitely wasn't aware of the difference in bolt pattern. Definitely something I don't feel like dealing with, and appreciate the advice on that. The "if i had to do it all over again" i think is kinda what's selling me to the baer kit more. Saving the money going with a C5 or C6 kit would be nice, but as i mentioned I don't want to deal with the hassle of fitment / clearance issues or sourcing parts. I don't mind paying a bit extra up front to make my life easier down the line.
There is a resounding theme going on with your comments.... You want to buy the Baer set up. DO IT!!! You won't be disappointed with the fit, finish, operation of the system. Call down and ask for Dutch in sales, or Rick Elam. Those are the guys that help me out, and are very good at their job.
Tell them Brandon @ Gilsdorf Garage sent you to them specifically. Not sure if it will help you or me out at all, but maybe means your not just some geek off the street... if you know what I mean.
C6 and below IE c5 c4 etc and bear wilwood etc have direct fit rotors that are drilled to fit on 5x120.65 bolt pattern like our bolt pattern
Now the 5th gen camaro and CTS v and newer c7 and 6th gen Camaro pretty much any GM 5 bolt car that's out now are all 5x120
Now 1le hub and standard hub are 5x120.65 and still have the hub for bearings that sticks out
All of the 5x120 rotors need the center bore enlarge to clear hub and also wheel lug holes enlarge so it doesn't ride on 1le hub wheels studs which will add stress to them so machining needs to be done on 5x120 rotors which isn't hard if you have equipment and or machine shop buddy unless you buy the ore machined from big brake upgrade
And as you know the corresponding wheel bolt patterns are match to the rotor on factory cars so that's why you didn't need to machine anything on c5 brake setup and still ran c6 wheels
Only way I know is to drill 1le hub for 5x120 bolt pattern which I never seen done or buy kore3 hubs which can be ordered with either or and or both IIRC
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
I didnt have to do anything on my c5 kit i got from ebmiller / flynbye? on this board years ago. Guess he already did the machining? But i also ran c6 wheels so is that a difference?
Agreed
Originally Posted by BADNBLK
There is a resounding theme going on with your comments.... You want to buy the Baer set up. DO IT!!! You won't be disappointed with the fit, finish, operation of the system. Call down and ask for Dutch in sales, or Rick Elam. Those are the guys that help me out, and are very good at their job.
Tell them Brandon @ Gilsdorf Garage sent you to them specifically. Not sure if it will help you or me out at all, but maybe means your not just some geek off the street... if you know what I mean.
I don't know if this last post by Zach is in a sticky somewhere - if it was I didn't see it, but it'd be useful info for a lot of people i'd think.
Not necessarily a resounding I want the Baer kit (at least I don't think), so much as I dont want a lot of added hassle, and the Baer kit has all the "work" taken out of it. No machining of parts, no grinding of the hub, no branding for a car they're not on. Throw and go, direct fit, replacement parts available. I looked at the Wilwood as an alternative - hubs need modification. Takes me back to the I don't want to do the work, or source parts from 30 different vendors.
Baer seems to have the only "throw and go" direct bolt on, no fab, no mod, (aka idiot proof if you can spin a wrench) easily replaced parts kit there is.
Let me clear some of this up, some info here is correct, some is not.
The later model cars do have a slightly different bolt pattern, 5 on 120mm
Our cars have 5 on 4.75 or 5 on 120.65mm. Now does that make a difference when it comes to a brake conversion? no, we use the hub from the stock rotor or hubs modeled after it with the correct 5 on 120.65mm or 5 on 4.75
The rotors we use over the stock hubs have very generous bores for the studs, so our 5 x 4.75 studs fit through them no problem at all. The GenV and CTS-V use 14mm wheel studs, so lots of room. This is really no different than what GM did with the LS1 camaro rotors, stud holes were very generous, but if you look up that part number it fits several other cars, most with other wheel bolt patterns.
only 3 conversions require rotor modification ( GenV Camaro SS and CTS-V1/V2 ) they do need the center bore of the rotor expanded from 65 mm to 70.3 mm
The C7 JL9, J55 and J56 all have the correct hub register naturally, so no rotor mods. For what ever reason the vette kept its 2.786 centric but did turn over to 120mm on 5 bolt pattern with M12 wheel studs, these rotors fit our hub and bolt pattern as well. I have used 1/2 studs through stock C7 Z06 rotors without a problem.
The Gen VI Camaro uses the same caliper as the Z51 (J55) c7, but the pattern and rotor center hole are 65mm/120mm. Easy fix, use the Z51 C7 rotor with the Gen VI caliper. hope this helps
Originally Posted by Zach/90\irocZ
C6 and below IE c5 c4 etc and bear wilwood etc have direct fit rotors that are drilled to fit on 5x120.65 bolt pattern like our bolt pattern
Now the 5th gen camaro and CTS v and newer c7 and 6th gen Camaro pretty much any GM 5 bolt car that's out now are all 5x120
Now 1le hub and standard hub are 5x120.65 and still have the hub for bearings that sticks out
All of the 5x120 rotors need the center bore enlarge to clear hub and also wheel lug holes enlarge so it doesn't ride on 1le hub wheels studs which will add stress to them so machining needs to be done on 5x120 rotors which isn't hard if you have equipment and or machine shop buddy unless you buy the ore machined from big brake upgrade
And as you know the corresponding wheel bolt patterns are match to the rotor on factory cars so that's why you didn't need to machine anything on c5 brake setup and still ran c6 wheels
Only way I know is to drill 1le hub for 5x120 bolt pattern which I never seen done or buy kore3 hubs which can be ordered with either or and or both IIRC
Ahhh thanks Mybad for bad info on the c7 setup assumed it required same mods to rotors but good to know that that's not the case
That's weird they did that with the c7 tho you would assume things would be standardized as majority of GM 5 bolt that runs brembo setup switch over
Originally Posted by BBU.COM
Let me clear some of this up, some info here is correct, some is not.
The later model cars do have a slightly different bolt pattern, 5 on 120mm
Our cars have 5 on 4.75 or 5 on 120.65mm. Now does that make a difference when it comes to a brake conversion? no, we use the hub from the stock rotor or hubs modeled after it with the correct 5 on 120.65mm or 5 on 4.75
The rotors we use over the stock hubs have very generous bores for the studs, so our 5 x 4.75 studs fit through them no problem at all. The GenV and CTS-V use 14mm wheel studs, so lots of room. This is really no different than what GM did with the LS1 camaro rotors, stud holes were very generous, but if you look up that part number it fits several other cars, most with other wheel bolt patterns.
only 3 conversions require rotor modification ( GenV Camaro SS and CTS-V1/V2 ) they do need the center bore of the rotor expanded from 65 mm to 70.3 mm
The C7 JL9, J55 and J56 all have the correct hub register naturally, so no rotor mods. For what ever reason the vette kept its 2.786 centric but did turn over to 120mm on 5 bolt pattern with M12 wheel studs, these rotors fit our hub and bolt pattern as well. I have used 1/2 studs through stock C7 Z06 rotors without a problem.
The Gen VI Camaro uses the same caliper as the Z51 (J55) c7, but the pattern and rotor center hole are 65mm/120mm. Easy fix, use the Z51 C7 rotor with the Gen VI caliper. hope this helps
I bought the complete kit from Big Brake Upgrade. I got the C6 Z51 front brakes and used Baer 2 pc rotors. I then converted from m drum to disc in the back ad used NOS PBR calipers and 13" Bear 2 pc rotors. I will be changing out the spring in the proportioning valve tonight and doing one final system bleed.
I do not autoX my car...yet and I don't push it to it limits either so my brake upgrade was mainly for looks . I will tell you that the car stopped so much better with just the front upgrade. I cant wait to get her out of the garage this spring to see how she stops now that the rear disc upgrade is installed.
Looks great. What rims are those? Correct BS'ing for 3rd gen?
02-23-2017, 07:26 AM
