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Have this weird thing going on with my 92 Z28. Here's the daily routine 5 days a week for months and the issue recurs like clockwork:
*Drive to work ~18 minute highway drive - starter engages and fires up instantly
*Drive to lunch - starter engages and fires up
*Drive back to work - starter engages just fine once again
*Drive from work to son's school `18 minute highway drive - starter once again just fine
*Sit for 20-30 minutes
*Pickup son from school to drive home - starter clicks once like the teeth gets stuck on the flywheel, or doesn't have enough juice in the battery to get it cranking. Either retry starting and maybe after a few minutes of trying it'll fire up, or I could wait 20 minutes and try again and it would fire up.
Then the next morning start up instantly like nothing was every wrong.
Every. Freaking. Day.
I've been neglecting taking time to look at it because of other priorities, but is there anything that would specifically cause this to happen? I believe this happened since I bought the car 3 years ago, but hasn't been a daily driver until after this summer, and that's when I'm noticing it a lot more.
Starter is a refurb LT1 starter - but again I believe it had these symptoms prior to the starter change.
Battery is red top Optima not even 2 years old.
When I got the electrical 'tested' at Auto Zone, everything passed with flying colors.
Could it be something as simple as the cable to the battery to starter has a short in it somewhere?
Sounds like a heat soak problem to me. Based on your daily routine you provided, the shortest amount of time between shutdown and startup is when the symptom arises. (Don't know how long your lunch break is). I had a similar problem after my header install with a factory starter. If I tried to start within 20-30 min of shutdown, the starter wouldn't do jack. There were two ways to get it to work at this point: 1) wait 20-30 more minutes. 2) cross the terminals on the starter with a very specifically bent wire hanger while holding my mouth right just long enough to "bump" the engine over. Then start it with the key like everything is hunky-dory. Header wrap, ford solenoid, reflective starter blanket on a mini starter solved it.
^^ that last part is the culmination of LOTS of frustration over about a year total if you take out the storage time while I was overseas.
Been dealing with this since I got the car. Swapped to a 0 gauge primary battery cable, mini starter with a heatshield wrap, and still had the issue. The last thing I did was re-terminate the purple signal wire and cover it in a heat shield meant for spark plug cables. So far so good.. this summer will be a true test.
Thanks for the replies, folks. So the Ford solenoid solution is pretty much a remote solenoid location? Is it necessary to short the factory solenoid or can it just simply be bypassed?
Has anyone attempted to create a ducting system to draw air directly to the starter and cool it off? Much like aero/brake vents?
I'd skip all the "solenoid" crap and just replace the starter.
"Heat soak" is A MYTH that doesn't exist, invented by people that don't understand electricity.
You need a starter. "Rebuilding" the one you have, won't fix it. You need a different one.
I have no interest in shelling out money on starters until I find one that doesn't suffer from "heat soak" - myth or not. These symptoms were present before I replaced the factory starter 2 years ago, and still exist with the refurb LT1 starter I replaced it with. I do not believe the relay or wiring is contributing to the symptoms.
Many moons ago my old '84 Z28 went through a new starter every year because of "heat soak" and back then I had zero mechanical or electrical knowledge.
$150 for another starter or $16 for a solenoid?
I'm interested in hearing your logic on debunking the "heat soak" myth.
I'm interested in hearing your logic on debunking the "heat soak" myth.
Doesn't work like that.
That's the same thing as logically "disproving" something religious. The onus isn't on the DISPROVER to "disprove" some fanciful claim; instead, it's on the person that MAKES THE CLAIM, to establish its truth.
In this case, JUST TRY to get some one of the "heat soak" myth proponents, to explain clearly and on a purely factual basis, (a) what "heat soak" is/does, and (b) what adding an external solenoid accomplishes. You'll see pretty quickly that there's no factual basis for it; and that all their "explanations" for how it works, boil down to "I don't know how, I just think it does".
Yes I am a mathematician and physicist, and have worked for some decades as an electrical and electronic engineer, in high-reliability (NOT consumer) and human life safety product environments.
you are literally the one that made the claim that heat soak is a myth
No; that's not how it works.
The people who made up the myth, ... made up the myth. You don't put up a myth and then dare everybody else to "disprove" it. THEY are the ones making the "claim", not me. I am a "non-believer" who does not subscribe to the myth, on scientific principle. (more accurately, I encountered the underlying science, BEFORE I encountered the myth, which means that I already clearly understood the physical reality that exposes the myth for what it is)
"Believers" in the "heat soak" myth are just like those who claim that the universe is about 6000 years old but who have NO factual basis for this claim other than "I'm convinced that my preferred myth says so", and who are willing to close off their mind to logic and facts when they contradict their preconceptions.
On the other hand, if you just enjoy wasting a bunch of time money and effort on something totally unnecessary, rather than actually FIXING YOUR CAR, it's no skin off my nose. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about why YOUR car doesn't work. MY car works just fine, thank you, without participating in this "myth". (or any other)
The stock LT1 starter is a good choice; FAR better than the old Stone Age direct drive original POS from WW2 that our cars came with. Just the parts store product for say a 96 Camaro V8. You may have to pay a core charge but I think you'll find that it's worth it.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 04-30-2017 at 09:56 AM.
The stock LT1 starter is a good choice; FAR better than the old Stone Age direct drive original POS from WW2 that our cars came with. Just the parts store product for say a 96 Camaro V8. You may have to pay a core charge but I think you'll find that it's worth it.
That's a gear-reduction unit, just altogether better in every way.
Other choices of course would include any of the various "mini-starters" in the aftermarket. Virtually all of those are built out of modern-design stock starters; either Nippondenso or Hitachi motors.
The starter currently in my car is a refurbished LT1, as I stated earlier in my posts. I believe these symptoms were present when I bought the car with the factory starter. It's a different sort of issue than when I had my '84 Z28 and went through a starter every year due to what was assumed to be 'heat soak'. It would crank very slowly like the battery was nearly dead. With this car, I get just a click of the starter attempting to engage. Then when it does crank, it cranks very fast and clean as if there was no issue to begin with. I never experience the slow, dying sort of cranking I experienced with my other thirdgen nearly 20 years ago.
What exactly would cause the starter to be malfunctioning? These symptoms are not present when outside temperature is 'cooler', and these issues come up when it's 'hot' outside. So w/o scientific testing it is extremely reasonable to assume that heat is causing electrical malfunctioning.
Many, many, seasoned and certified professionals in the field can come to the same conclusion. You seem to dispute that theory. That's fine. I love to entertain a new thought and learn the right information. However, you lack follow through. You jump in and bash the common knowledge so to speak, yet refuse to tell why. If you want to act like an immature grumpy old man and not contribute to educating or helping solve the issue, then why bother posting?
Last edited by sahlomonic; 05-01-2017 at 04:26 PM.
The way I read it, this diagram will only make a solenoid problem worse. The little red jumper is to trigger the original solenoid when 12V is sent through the Ford solenoid. So now you are sending starting current through two solenoids. I think the intention is to tie the red cable to the starter motor itself, NOT its original solenoid- then you wouldn't need the jumper since you wouldn't need that solenoid.
04-25-2017, 03:55 PM
I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about why YOUR car doesn't work. MY car works just fine, thank you, without participating in this "myth". (or any other)
