Daemien67

Hi guys, been lurking a long time and you guys motivated me to do a swap of my own. My IROC has been sitting without an engine for over a decade and I am finally financially able to restore it. Since I have to buy an engine I started looking at all my options and what was smog legal for california. From maxing out the L98's capability, to researching the LS1 and up; I've decided to go with an LS3 swap. Unfortunately I haven't found much in the ways of legal LS3 swaps as they're quickly dismissed as almost identical as LS1 swaps. True, but in California I fear it gets much more complicated..

My understanding for an LS1 to be ref smog legal certified, I'd need:

1. plastic 4th gen tank (with charcoal canister and evap, air pump)
2. 4 O2 sensors
3. stock header-catback exhaust
4. 4th gen cluster (check engine light)
5. donor car transmission
6. donor PCM

This all makes sense, since LS1's were 4th gen 98-02 camaros/vettes and you are essentially rebuilding this into the third gen. But with LS3's your donor would be the 08 Vette, 10-15 Camaros, and 09 Pontiac G8 that sported an LS3. These setups ranging from 416-427hp. The automatic transmissions on these cars are all 6L80E's I believe, at least I havent found any with 4L60/80E's. My understanding with the Ref' rules is that it has to be identical drivetrain to any specific donor model. 6L80E's will require more modding to my car than I'd like to do, but I'm not sure if using the 4L60/E will fail at the ref.

And then there's this:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19257230

Everything is there EXCEPT the transmission. This is a CARB LS3 for Cali engine swaps per their 2010 engine emissions law. Expensive... AND still need a trans.. which they recommend a 4L65/85E!? Someone even asked the question: "will it work with a 700R4?" and they said yes! But wouldn't that kick out an error in the PCM since the 4L60E is controlled and the 700R4(4L60) isnt? I have my old 700R4 so if it would work and pass, maybe I could go this route.

What do you guys think?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Welcome aboard thirdgen.org.

Your list is mostly correct.

#3 should be stock exhaust manifolds (or emissions-legal replacements) and cats. What's after the cats isn't important as far as emissions goes.

#4 is more for gauges that work (fuel level, especially). The PCM needs the signal the 4th gen tank sender sends for control of the evap system, and can't be split for running a stock 3rd gen gauge (different resistances). You can set up a check engine light without the 4th gen cluster, but I don't know anyone who makes a serial data aftermarket fuel gauge (might be one out there - I just don't know about it).

In my opinion, the E-Rod is a great way to put an LS into a 3rd gen. You can keep your stock fuel tank and gauges. All of the emissions-required equipment comes with the engine. The main drawback is the expense - it's expensive. But, you will have minimal additional costs to get the swap done. And, it is basically an LS swap (for mounts, exhaust, electrical, etc.).

If you want to run a TH700R-4 behind the E-Rod (why you would want to do that is beyond me), you'd start with the manual transmission version of the E-Rod controller, then you'd have to rig up some way to connect the TV cable to the electronic accelerator pedal, and some way to lock up the torque converter clutch. Doable? Probably. But why? The 4L60E (or 4L65E) is the superior transmission. It will have bellhousing bolts that match the engine. Its shift points are programmable. A TH700 would have to be built up/modified to handle the power of the E-Rod, so why not spend the money on something made for the engine?

That's what I think.

tealman92

So many have tried the smog legal swap here in California and I know of only 1 who has been successful and passing 100% legally. It was with an erod kit. Others have done it and it turns into a huge can of worms. If you want to run ac with the ls1 you would then need to swap all the ac stuff from the 4th gen to work with the dash you now are putting in to fit your new gauge cluster you have to use from the 4th gen because its part of emissions. I have seen it both ways. Lots of work swapping everything from a perfectly running smog legal 4th gen or spending the 12k to do erod swap and all the parts involved.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

On top of needing a 4l60/65/70e trans, youll need the TCU to control said trans.The eRod ECU has no provisions for transmission control.Only a bulkhead that connects erod harness to the TCU harness.So thats an added cost.Although worth it in the end.Doubt you can use the 700r.Since the ECU will be looking for the Trans signal via the bulkhead connection.Plus the 700 is the weakest of the 4AOD's anyway, 65e is a good choice, 70e more so.

If youre willing to convert to manual, the manual trans version of the eRod is a cheaper alternative.Since that ECU/harness doesnt include the bulkhead in the harness.A 6 speed could still be cheaper than auto/tcu price?

The hardest part will be the getting the exh manifolds to fit/clear your x-member.Cats are a tight fit with the auto, but do-able.Manual should give you more room for them.

And no modifications, if you want to legitimately pass the ref test.

Daemien67

Thank you guys for the great feedback. I had read somewhere that the TH700R4 and 4L60E were same toughness but wanted to get your feedback. I am going to get the 4L65E. I talked to a Referee yesterday and he got really excited when I mentioned the E-Rod he almost forgot to set me up for certification and said put that baby in and go straight to the smog shop.

I am going with: http://paceperformance.com/i-1039214...65e-trans.html

$12,613, free shipping, and $500 mail in rebate.

Comes with TCU and 4L65E installation kit, trans cooler and torque converter
Every piece of smog equipment included as well.

l see I need to make adjustments to get AC to work. I had read you could get a tubular K-Arm upgrade kit to allow you to use stock AC, is that correct?

Also, I'm running stock diff, axles, brakes. I still have to look into upgrades for all those areas but Im hoping my stock equipment will work for the time being while I take it easy and break in the engine.

Would I also need to invest in subframe connectors and traction bars, or will it have decent traction without twisting the car? I'll be running 17x9s on the back with 285 30R17 tires.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

AC should work as stand alone.Erod ECU has no provision for it.Stock AC system should work with LS type compressor, stock compressor looks awkward at best.Just need to modify the stock x-member.

Suspension upgrades never hurt regardless of eng combo.Same for brakes, diff.

Holleys blackheart exh kit for 3rd gen LS conversion is probably the best true dual system you can use, but youll have to mod it for the cats.

You'll also need a OBD II type tank.LS equipped 4th gens units are a good choice.

Did you already set up a ref appointment? How quick are gonna do the swap?

Daemien67

I am planning on doing this build thru the summer. Id like to have it running by aug-september. I just got the car back from the bodyshop with new paint. In the process of redoing the wheels and tires. And doing a complete strip down of the interior. Ill be custom designing a new interior with my nephew who runs a machine shop with c&c machine. I am letting him do a lot of the designing. We are building the car as a project show car with the USAF mustang and challenger as inspiration. So the design of the interior will be like a jet cockpit. The paint is a finished matte black with custom fiberglass fenders and quarters. Going for an F-22 look.

Long term goal would be to bolt a CARB charger onto the engine and steadily increase horsepower along with upgrading brakes, suspension, differential, traction bars, connectors, 2-4pt cage, harness.

My dad is retired Marine fighter pilot, step-dad retired C130/C17 Tech Sgt, Nephew going to USAF academy, Sis-in law Reaper Operator... so then theres me.. Im a Test Tech for Substations that pukes everytime im in an aircraft.... go figure. So trying to make a powerful car that feels like a jet

Daemien67

Thanks for the great info. Im taking note of everything you guys advise. For the fuel tank, the E-Rod comes with all the fuel equipment. I-ll have to run new fuel lines or make mine work somehow. I am planning to replace anything that looks even remotely deteriorated since the car has sat so long.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Don't think the erod comes with a fuel system.Unless they changed it recently.You have to supply a compatible tank/pump/lines, etc.Only fuel related item is the evap canister.

Aug/ Sept sounds do-able.Took me around seven months, mostly weekend work & what little time I had during the week.

Daemien67

Youre right I misread the parts list. It reads "fuel tank .. evap canister" So close but so far away. So absolutely, Ill grab a 4th gen tank.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No need for a 4th gen tank with the E-Rod. In fact, you'll just be making things hard on yourself. The TPI pump will do the job, but a pump upgrade would be better (Walbro 255 lph is a popular choice). You can either rig up a Vette filter/regulator to replace your factory fuel filter, or put a return-type fuel pressure regulator up in the engine compartment and use the factory supply and return lines (that's what I would do - would have if I'd had a factory EFI car).

Unless you REALLY want to do the tubular K-member for other reasons, you can do AC other ways. One is the Kwik Performance relocation brackets with Sanden compressor. I picked this up, then decided to notch the factory K-member instead. Still have it, make you a deal if you're interested (uses f-body LS1 accessories).





I think you'll like the E-Rod setup. It's more coin, but if you can swing it, it's the easiest way to get the job done. Still drooling over the Blackheart stuff myself as well. None of this (E-Rod, Blackheart) was available when I was doing my swaps.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Have you tried one of those patches behind the ear? Did one before a cruise a couple of years ago, never had any issues for the week-long float.

Daemien67

No I haven't tried that, but I will look into it. My dad keeps urging me to get my pilot's license, and I puke just thinking about it haha.

Well I finished talking with the referee again, this time about the drivetrain. He said that is only an issue with transplanting a donor engine. Then the whole drivetrain has to match and thats the real hastle. For me, I can use whatever transmission I want as long as the kit I'm building is CARB certified.

E-Rod LS3 connect and cruise is on its way!

I also picked up the Spohn K-member kit for the full front suspension
Spohn-Performance

Car is near stripped right now, so we will be rebuilding the front end as soon as that comes. Hopefully dropping the engine in should not have any clearance issues with the oil pan.

Next on this list:
struts
4L65E crossmember
Driveshaft

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

I'll be following this. I plan on getting the LS3 erod kit for my car as well. Its a great bang for the buck, its smog legal and makes great power.

Daemien67

The EROD and 4L60E are here! I just got done tearing apart the front-end for the new Spohn kit coming later this week. We are also going to replace the steering center link and tie-rods as they were in bad shape. So all suspension and steering equipment will be new.

Also picking up a 4L60E crossmember, mount, and driveshaft loop from Spohn.

Been working on deciding on what to do with the brakes and differential.
Seen good marks for the Wilwood and Baer kits, but have no idea what is "enough breaking" I need. I am ultimately planning on 700hp with a bolt on CARB supercharger, so I am trying to make sure I have enough stopping power for that later.

So considering that, when I look at diffs(which I don't know anything of), I am leaning towards a 12 bolt with 3:73's. Is that too much diff for my application?

Since I'll be replacing the bottom-end, I was also looking at torque-arms.
This Spohn Torque Arm comes with crossmember and loop. Are there any special things to consider with this?

Daemien67

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

Watching closely. This is my 2018-2019 project. I'm ready to commit.

I refuse to switch to a 4th gen dash, though. I can't imagine a CEL can't be rigged to work, even if I have to put an arduino in the middle of the ecm and cluster.

Daemien67

That's so funny you mentioned the arduino, I'm actually planning on doing some fun stuff with a control board. I think you definitely could get it working, but I think it has to do with your referee and what they want to see. Seeing it work properly on the 4th gen dash is what they might want to see if its a transplant, but for the EROD, the ECM/TCU don't require it. I believe you can wire them directly, but I haven't gotten that far yet. I think essentially whatever engine lights are on your 3rd gen dash have to work with your EROD and be normal.

We are looking at using arduinos to make some headsup displays using LCD screens and dash screens that will display analog readings like oil press, water temp...etc. The HUD will display mph, and possibly mpg if i can measure the fuel flow rate with an analog somehow. Might add dashcams and reverse cams utilizing an arduino for camera control thru an MFD style interface. Also looking at wiring up my fuse block to microswitches that would output to an LED "underglass" to create an alarm light box indicating the blown circuit. We are building this car like a military jet fighter so we are throwing around a lot of ideas.

A lot of fun stuff can be done with that and also Raspberry Pi!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Cool!

No.

Exhaust clearance/routing.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Erod comes with two MIL/CEL, one is in the fuse box.The other goes inside for driver convenience.Just requires an LED.I put mine in the original CEL location.

WHo makes a CARB legal supercharger for the Erod?

Daemien67

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/...niversal.shtml

scroll to bottom, E-ROD model 50 state street legal

Daemien67

I talked to an Edelbrock technician who said that the EFORCE 15426 was made for the E-ROD with CARB EO# set as a bolt-on approved. I will ask california referee what he thinks. This charger is also listed as a GM Universal charger for engine swaps that is 50 state legal.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Hell yeah, ive been waiting for something like this.It kinda looks like the OE superchargers on the vettes, dont it? Any idea on the price?

Daemien67

It's $7k E-FORCE 15426

Definitely a down-the-road upgrade for me. I'll be running naturally aspirated for awhile. Hopefully Procharger and other brands could get on the 50 street legal path in the next few years and provide some competition. How I'd love to bolt a D1SC - F1 charger onto that LS3

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Christ, way overpriced.Thats almost as much as the e-rod!

Daemien67

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. I found one site that advertised the kit at 6k but they didn't show any sign of getting them in stock.. and I'm not really looking to buy now anyways.

I found a great resource for installing torque arms, specifically the Spohn torque arm, with angle finder:

http://ws6transam.org/torqarm.html

BlackMamba

iTrader: (6)

Following
Wouldn't mind doing this e rod swap to a future thirdgen

841LE your swap came out amazing btw

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Thanks BM, so are you in el paso now?

BlackMamba

iTrader: (6)

I was going move over there but change in plans currently in LB because of my work, my boss don't want me to leave, plus my sister wanted to finish her school here amd go with her friends

Daemien67

Just got the EROD sitting pretty in the IROC. Spent the weekend installing the Spohn performance Tubular front suspension kit and rebuilding the steering equipment with new ball joints, tie rods, etc.

The engine went in pretty easily. Driver's side exhaust manifold was tight against the firewall when we were trying to seat the engine mounts, but once we got lined up, it cleared it nicely.The engine has studs that stick up from the valve covers a good amount, of which, on the passenger's side, was making contact with the air conditioning box. We had to cut it back to clear and line up the motor mount. The only problem I see now, is the clearance from the fuel injector next to the AC box. Its close, and depending on which way the engine torques, might hit. We will see.

Now we are on to hooking up all the smog equipment, wiring harness, etc.

Daemien67

Jaysz28

iTrader: (30)

I really like the body kit

Car is looking good!

Robbie_S

Looks good with the new suspension upgrade in there. What are you doing for the transmission back?

Daemien67

Thanks Jay and Robbie, yeah we are really happy with how it came out. The suspension kit really lowered the car, but it has a raising collar at the base of the coil if we want more height whenever. Really looks like a funny car at some angles. We need to get the new wheels and tires sized, but that won't be for awhile.

The Transmission is a 4L65E that I will be mounting to a Spohn Performance LSX/4l65E trans mount with driveshaft loop. The driveshaft will need to be measured and custom made later. Before I get there I will be swapping the rear end for a Moser 12bolt with new Torque arm.

Robbie_S

Drive Shaft Pro, formerly Coast Driveline, is a very helpful place that makes very good drive shafts. I have gone to them on several occasions. For my current build I had to have a longer drive shaft made to hold me over until the motor and trans swap. They had one built in less than a day. I ordered it in the morning and had it installed before dinner. I am not sure if Ventura is too far for you, but I highly recommend them.

Edit: It was only a few hundred bucks to have it made.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

If you're speaking of this (http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...ossmember.html) transmission crossmember you should take a hard pass on it. Spohn's crossmember style murders your ability to run a good dual exhaust system and have adequate ground clearance. Absolutely no fore thought was given to exhaust when designing that crossmember.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

I used Hawks piece w/ holleys blackheart system, good ground clearance, but the mounting holes barely line up, so some re-engineering is required.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Whatever became of this?

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I am potentially taking a job in California and this has me worried. The LSX that I have to go into the car wouldn't be legal even if it passes the sniffer check. So unhappy right now. Lol

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I think the E-rod engine is your best choice. An LS engine you already have will sell easily. Too much red tape and I hear way too often about smog referees making up their own rules to want to run anything else.

JavierR

How do you make the las3 exhaust manifolds fit. They drop right on top off the control arm mounts.
working on 1985 iroc z
thank you very much

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

You really can't unless you move the motor mounts. Only real option are the ls1 style exhaust manifold or the e-rod manifolds since none of the aftermarket header options are california legal.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

E-rod manifolds are the same (5th gen f-body) manifolds and you HAVE to use them (at least in Ca). NO substitutes...period, unless they are 50-state certified for the e-rod and there is only one EO legal set by Patriot Headers, but the outlet is in the same spot as the manifolds, but its the rearward a-arm mount that's in the way, not the motor mount.

That said. there is a way, but id rather not say it on the public forum. Never know whos watching. Maybe a PM.