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Realistically - I don't think so. The hardware could likely do it, but it would require a complete rewrite of the code using something like the 89 $6E as the basis for it.....
Why would you want to do that? Get the EBL P4 setup and the interface program is capable of VE table learning, etc. Basically tunes itself.
You can convert to the 7730 ECM easily enough. You just delete the MAF and instead wire in the MAP sensor, etc and swap the ECM connectors to the 7730 style. This has been done many times and there are several write ups about it. I'm going to swap because I'm going to run a forced induction application and the EBL will come in handy for this.
That said, what tuning problems are you having with the 165? It's not that hard to tune. I've got mine tuned using the 165. The disconnecting behavior does make it more time consuming but you can get the job done with some perseverance.
I really don't want to switch to speed density... but I do hear ya.
I wish I could videolog what I am going through. I first was having the flashing "data error" message in TunerPro when I'd try to connect. I have the "listen for silence" command in the macro.
What I did to get rid of this error was raise the minimum read/write timeout period (in the com port's advanced settings) to at least 900 milliseconds.
Now it says connected but I get junk data. The values switch back and forth and are bogus. I have the 10k resistor, I've read all the stickies, etc... I just simply cannot datalog.
Sucks.. I have a ALDL cable, burn2, G1 adapter, HDR1 header, Ostrich 2.0... and I bought all this crap for no reason it seems. I was really hoping to take this on and tune my own car but I can't get past step 1: data log your vehicle to see what's going on.
My original ECM was bad and wouldn't connect - barely ran even. I got a NOS Delco one from eBay for $80 and been working no problem. I found a NAPA reman in my parts car and it works fine also. That's my backup. If I had a third one I would sell it to you. The parts car came with invoices - one from like 2000 indicated the ECM got replaced because of poor performance and fuel economy. Said engine ran much better after replacement on the invoice. Given what ive seen of the factory ECM's I tend to believe it. Though the reman stuff seems to be ok.
My original ECM was bad and wouldn't connect - barely ran even. I got a NOS Delco one from eBay for $80 and been working no problem. I found a NAPA reman in my parts car and it works fine also. That's my backup. If I had a third one I would sell it to you. The parts car came with invoices - one from like 2000 indicated the ECM got replaced because of poor performance and fuel economy. Said engine ran much better after replacement on the invoice. Given what ive seen of the factory ECM's I tend to believe it. Though the reman stuff seems to be ok.
GD
Just ordered a replacement from hawks. Probably from a parts care. Rockauto requires a core charge.
My original ecm seems to be fine besides the datalogging headaches.
If this new ecm solves the problem i may buy a third reman one from rockauto and use this troublesome ecm as the core.
TPIParts.net also has used/tested ecms for $100. I bought one from them a couple years ago.
I wish an electronics tech/engineer could look at this problem and find a fix. Must have something to do with a component on the pc board that gets damaged or simply worn out.
My spare ECM is a NAPA reman and appears to work just fine after being parked and exposed to moisture for 10 years. The board is dipped in a clear rubber compound. Literally dripping off the board. Appears completely perfect under there.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 07-18-2017 at 10:01 PM.
My understanding of the '808 is that it doesn't have the high speed (8192 baud) ALDL chip. It only runs at 160 baud.
As for running the '7730 with a MAF, the hardware is there. Need to use the VATs input with a low frequency MAF. But I don't know of any code mask that will support it.
Although there is about a dozen that GM used in the '7730, one of which may use a MAF, but I don't know for sure either way.
I know this is an old thread but did anyone ever manage to solve this issue. I can’t figure out what to do. I only manage to datalog a few minutes when the car is started.
I know this is an old thread but did anyone ever manage to solve this issue. I can’t figure out what to do. I only manage to datalog a few minutes when the car is started.
It's not something that *can* be solved. From what I understand it's a limitation (defect) of the hardware or design. There is no solution. These cars were NOT intended to be used with live data scan tools. The ALDL interface was called "Assembly Line Diagnostic Link" because it was used at the point of assembly. If you peruse through the factory service manuals for the 7165 cars there is NO mention of the ECU's ability to output live data and it is not used in the any of the troubleshooting charts. The fact that they can and do work this way is just a convenient side effect of the engineering and manufacturing process. GM never intended anyone other than the engineers to use it. Later models they did, but I don't believe on the 7165 they really cared if it (the live-data mode) worked reliably once the car was sold to the consumer.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 01-07-2020 at 04:37 PM.
It's not something that *can* be solved. From what I understand it's a limitation (defect) of the hardware or design. There is no solution. These cars were NOT intended to be used with live data scan tools. The ALDL interface was called "Assembly Line Diagnostic Link" because it was used at the point of assembly. If you peruse through the factory service manuals for the 7165 cars there is NO mention of the ECU's ability to output live data and it is not used in the any of the troubleshooting charts. The fact that they can and do work this way is just a convenient side effect of the engineering and manufacturing process. GM never intended anyone other than the engineers to use it. Later models they did, but I don't believe on the 7165 they really cared if it (the live-data mode) worked reliably once the car was sold to the consumer.
GD
This is simply not true, they were designed to do it and can do it reliably as evidenced by the fact that I have connected to them with a handheld scan tool and read the real time data from it consistently and reliably, if the handheld can do it so should you be able to do it on a PC, there is obviously some software setting or hardware/cable limitation that nobody has managed to figure out and probably never will considering the miniscule number of people trying to mess with that ECU.
This is simply not true, they were designed to do it and can do it reliably as evidenced by the fact that I have connected to them with a handheld scan tool and read the real time data from it consistently and reliably, if the handheld can do it so should you be able to do it on a PC, there is obviously some software setting or hardware/cable limitation that nobody has managed to figure out and probably never will considering the miniscule number of people trying to mess with that ECU.
Some are better than others. But they all disconnect randomly. Sometimes after 30 minutes, sometimes after 30 seconds. It's highly random and unpredictable. The FSM speaks not of this ability. Yes of course scan tools implemented the protocol. Doesn't mean the 7165 was capable of staying connected to it. They are just broken and it's not a software problem. It's a glitch in the hardware and it's not possible to fix it.
I wont go into the fact of whether it is meant or not meant to retain connectivity. For sure it is something that can be 'adapted' to work, in the same way the whole PROM editing and Hacks had to be 'adapted' to result in what we are doing with them. GM didn't engineer them so that everyone could modify values and parameters.
What I can say is that it doesnt look to be an issue with the actual connectivity equipment. There are a lot of people using equipment from Red Devil River, Moates, DIY using 1 or 2 transistors, DIY using MAX232, all of which encounter this issues at some point. In terms of software it happens with TP RT, Datamaster, ALDLDroid.. not sure about WinALDL and Commercial Scanners. But it looks like all these SW programs use the same parameters (normally contains in the ADX file) to connect and perhaps this protocol is causing the issues.
From my recent investigations, I think that the majority of the times (still not 100% on this) connection is maintained for a long time and once it starts disconnecting, it becomes unusable. This might be attributed to noise that the cooling FAN causes on the power lines. Just yesterday I noticed that after the first FAN cycle, I started getting the problems.
I will today do another test leaving TP connected (or ALDLDroid) to the car with Ignition On, Engine Off and see how long it will be sustained. It normally takes circa 6 minutes of driving here in Malta at this temperature for the coolant to reach 180 which is when the FAN is configured to kick in.
What I really believe is happening is that all these units are now 30+ years and certain internal components have a lifetime. Components such as capacitors are also influenced by environmental conditions and especially capacitors have a role of filtering these noises and they might not be doing their intended purpose so well after all these years. I dont know what the ECMs go through when they reman them. Might be interesting to find out. What I can say is that in my datalog, battery voltage fluctuates alot and I think that such conditions are not the ideal for serial communications.
I mean - it's really not worth the effort for the stock ECU's. Get a stand-alone like a LINK or get an EBL for it. I have an EBL I'm selling in fact.....
This stuff is ancient history and pretty well sucks to work with anymore anyway. Burning chips? How many hours do you want to waste on this junk. Forget about the Autoprom - that's almost worse with ribbon cable interference and random disconnects - even on the 7730. It's a chore to use and the learning curve isn't worth the effort. Get something more modern for a few hundred $ and get on with tuning and driving I say. For the cost, it's not worth it to bother with the stock ECU's.
I mean - it's really not worth the effort for the stock ECU's. Get a stand-alone like a LINK or get an EBL for it. I have an EBL I'm selling in fact.....
This stuff is ancient history and pretty well sucks to work with anymore anyway. Burning chips? How many hours do you want to waste on this junk. Forget about the Autoprom - that's almost worse with ribbon cable interference and random disconnects - even on the 7730. It's a chore to use and the learning curve isn't worth the effort. Get something more modern for a few hundred $ and get on with tuning and driving I say. For the cost, it's not worth it to bother with the stock ECU's.
GD
I wanted to datalog, burn chips and tune my old IROC for the same reason I'd still like to play original Nintendo games. Good luck everyone. But you're right. If I had to do it again, I would modernize the crap out of everything in terms of engine management. I think my main passion at that point would be to keep the exterior and interior especially the gauges looking stock. Someday I'll be back on this site when I'm 65 and retired hopefully.
I'm not sure if this is helpful for your connection issues.
However I dealt with tons before I converted to the EBL.
First, verify your ALDL connectors are perfect. Mine had play in the connector itself and when I plugged in the Extreme ALDL cable they would push back causing a no connection issue.
If they are bad you can find new connectors on ebay for like 20 bucks complete with pins. You will have to wire it up but that's not too hard. I cannot stress this enough, if those pins move even the slightest you will have connection issues.
Secondly the adx files floating around for the $6e are flawed when it comes to the pause command.
They specify a 10 ms timeout. This is incorrect. It should be 10ms silence.
Lastly there are some driver settings changes for the Extreme ALDL cable 1(assuming you are using it, I am not sure if you are). I no longer have or remember them, but contact Moates Support they are the best and will take care of you.
I recommend calling them.
Fell free to PM me I am happy to help troubleshoot this. In the end I did get mine working, but my MAF system limited my engine so I converted to EBL.
Thanks for your offer to help. Once I arrive home I will check this pause and timeout thing. To be honest I dont think I have a pause command in my adx file.
As for EBL, I am honestly interested but I would see it a bit as an overkill as my car is stock and the only reason why I need datalog is to resolve an issue I currently have with the car losing power at times.
Thanks for your offer to help. Once I arrive home I will check this pause and timeout thing. To be honest I dont think I have a pause command in my adx file.
As for EBL, I am honestly interested but I would see it a bit as an overkill as my car is stock and the only reason why I need datalog is to resolve an issue I currently have with the car losing power at times.
Sure thing.
If that's the case, I can supply a couple of 6E adx files for you to try. Just let me know.
Hi guys
Returned home and went straight to test my theories. Here it goes:
- Ignition Off: Connected ALDL to tablet (using ALDLDroid) with jumper shorted.
- Ignition On. Engine Off. Clicked 'Connect'. After 5 seconds ALDLDroid connected fine @ 8192 baud (Can see it through one of the items on the screen)
- Ignition On. Engine Off. Remove ALDL Cable jumper to avoid going into 'Diagnostic Mode'. Connection was unaffected. Started Datalog.
- Ignition On. Engine Off. 22 MINUTES connected without any glitches. First ever long / successful datalog. During this time I was periodically pressing the throttle and shifting out of park to ensure I had datastream. I could also continuously see the MAF reading fluctuating decimals and battery voltage dropping decimals when I press the brake pedal (due to rear lights).
- Ignition On. Engine On. Same Datalog. Started engine. ALDLDroid maintained connectivity without issues.
- Ignition On. Engine On. After 4 minutes switched to Closed Loop. Coolant at 114. Observing values for TPS, MAF, Battery, Coolant Temperature obviously change.
- Ignition On. Engine On. 12 minutes after the engine was started coolant reached 183 and Fan kicked in. Cooling fan duty cycle of 101.59. Original datalog still ongoing for a total of 22 + 12 minutes
- Ignition On. Engine On. 1.40 minutes later, coolant went down to 180, Fan had to switch off (didnt hear it coming off to be honest) and connection to the ECM failed....
From the above and because I do not believe in coincidences, I would surely narrow down this issue bound with the Fan most probably being deactivated screwing something. I had 35:40 minutes of successful datalog, 22 of which with engine off, 12 with engine on fan off, 1.40 with engine on fan on (about to go off). Its 100% not a matter of the ECM or ALDL not being capable. To me its related to power and noise and the workarounds might be going through components such as capacitors replacing them or perhaps some kind of external smoothing circuitry.
Perhaps a capacitor like the one used in sound installations can help?
Anyone else wants to chime in here? Comments greatly appreciated. Lets try and get this long winded issue resolved!!
Hi guys
Returned home and went straight to test my theories. Here it goes:
- Ignition Off: Connected ALDL to tablet (using ALDLDroid) with jumper shorted.
- Ignition On. Engine Off. Clicked 'Connect'. After 5 seconds ALDLDroid connected fine @ 8192 baud (Can see it through one of the items on the screen)
- Ignition On. Engine Off. Remove ALDL Cable jumper to avoid going into 'Diagnostic Mode'. Connection was unaffected. Started Datalog.
- Ignition On. Engine Off. 22 MINUTES connected without any glitches. First ever long / successful datalog. During this time I was periodically pressing the throttle and shifting out of park to ensure I had datastream. I could also continuously see the MAF reading fluctuating decimals and battery voltage dropping decimals when I press the brake pedal (due to rear lights).
- Ignition On. Engine On. Same Datalog. Started engine. ALDLDroid maintained connectivity without issues.
- Ignition On. Engine On. After 4 minutes switched to Closed Loop. Coolant at 114. Observing values for TPS, MAF, Battery, Coolant Temperature obviously change.
- Ignition On. Engine On. 12 minutes after the engine was started coolant reached 183 and Fan kicked in. Cooling fan duty cycle of 101.59. Original datalog still ongoing for a total of 22 + 12 minutes
- Ignition On. Engine On. 1.40 minutes later, coolant went down to 180, Fan had to switch off (didnt hear it coming off to be honest) and connection to the ECM failed....
From the above and because I do not believe in coincidences, I would surely narrow down this issue bound with the Fan most probably being deactivated screwing something. I had 35:40 minutes of successful datalog, 22 of which with engine off, 12 with engine on fan off, 1.40 with engine on fan on (about to go off). Its 100% not a matter of the ECM or ALDL not being capable. To me its related to power and noise and the workarounds might be going through components such as capacitors replacing them or perhaps some kind of external smoothing circuitry.
Perhaps a capacitor like the one used in sound installations can help?
Anyone else wants to chime in here? Comments greatly appreciated. Lets try and get this long winded issue resolved!!
I often had data disconnect after a period of time when using Tuner Pro and after replacing/repairing my ALDL connector this stopped happening.
What cable are you using?(Not saying that's a problem) I see you are adding a resistor to get it into dump mode. My old cable had a switch to apply a 10k resistor to the ECM.
As to your adx, I can help there.
I have several I was working on. They are modified to allow a WB input data stream from the ECM, and show MAF volts in the data stream.
I also have a non-modified one I can send you.
Please PM me your email so I can mail them to you(do not post your email here, forums are scraped all the time)
It's also possible that pause command will help with your disconnect issue.
Also, if possible I would try a laptop with TunerPro RT on it. I like aldl droid, but TunerPro was always more reliable for me.
Hi guys
Returned home and went straight to test my theories. Here it goes:
- Ignition Off: Connected ALDL to tablet (using ALDLDroid) with jumper shorted.
- Ignition On. Engine Off. Clicked 'Connect'. After 5 seconds ALDLDroid connected fine @ 8192 baud (Can see it through one of the items on the screen)
- Ignition On. Engine Off. Remove ALDL Cable jumper to avoid going into 'Diagnostic Mode'. Connection was unaffected. Started Datalog.
- Ignition On. Engine Off. 22 MINUTES connected without any glitches. First ever long / successful datalog. During this time I was periodically pressing the throttle and shifting out of park to ensure I had datastream. I could also continuously see the MAF reading fluctuating decimals and battery voltage dropping decimals when I press the brake pedal (due to rear lights).
- Ignition On. Engine On. Same Datalog. Started engine. ALDLDroid maintained connectivity without issues.
- Ignition On. Engine On. After 4 minutes switched to Closed Loop. Coolant at 114. Observing values for TPS, MAF, Battery, Coolant Temperature obviously change.
- Ignition On. Engine On. 12 minutes after the engine was started coolant reached 183 and Fan kicked in. Cooling fan duty cycle of 101.59. Original datalog still ongoing for a total of 22 + 12 minutes
- Ignition On. Engine On. 1.40 minutes later, coolant went down to 180, Fan had to switch off (didnt hear it coming off to be honest) and connection to the ECM failed....
From the above and because I do not believe in coincidences, I would surely narrow down this issue bound with the Fan most probably being deactivated screwing something. I had 35:40 minutes of successful datalog, 22 of which with engine off, 12 with engine on fan off, 1.40 with engine on fan on (about to go off). Its 100% not a matter of the ECM or ALDL not being capable. To me its related to power and noise and the workarounds might be going through components such as capacitors replacing them or perhaps some kind of external smoothing circuitry.
Perhaps a capacitor like the one used in sound installations can help?
Anyone else wants to chime in here? Comments greatly appreciated. Lets try and get this long winded issue resolved!!
Originally Posted by aseychell
Sending you PM now thanks!!
re the wideband, i think i would still need to replace my bin also to get wideband via datalog correct?
Correct for it to read the new input on pin D8 on the ecm(note this pin is currently empty)
Last edited by Green89IROC305; 01-08-2020 at 03:49 PM.
Can someone clarify if we should have some kind of fan controller here? The ECM states cooling fan duty cycle but I don’t think PWM can be used on a normal relay correct?
07-17-2017, 08:09 AM
