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Last spring I finally made the switch from a Turbo V6 to a sbc V8. I spent a good 6 years perfecting my V6 and making it reliable and fast. Setting personal records and V6 board records with many videos and slips at the track. A personal best of a 11.23@123mph with the hybrid but on a regular basis it ran mid and high 11s and being drove to the track every weekend. It was very unique and special. A best of 12.88@105mph with stock guts piston exc on a 3.1l factory iron headed gen 1 V6. 15 psi of boost.
This spring I broke a crank as I was aiming to run 10s and wiped out some forged internals in the process. I finally said I'm tired of pushing the V6 limits so far, and since I'm a bracket racer and rely on conisitsncy I ditched the 6 to swap in a 385 sbc.
I've owned this car since the winter of 2002. Purchased the car with 33k miles on it for 4200 bucks out the door. This November marks 15 years I've owned it. I was a senior in high school when I got it and it was the first vehicle I paid for in full by my self. I daily drove it for about 9 years before doing some major turbo modifications.
Currently the car is just a amazing street strip bracket car. Runs as consistent on 93 octane as most alky ran bracket cars. Consistant 11.60s week in and out. I got invited to the nhra et bracket finals in indy this weekend to be a alternate for Milan dragway. What a honor but I had to pass on because of work.
This winter my car will he getting alot done to it. A paint job could be in the works finally. My car is maui blue and I will be retaining that color as it's a rarer color compared to most.
I will be installing a s60 strange rear end. 4.10 gears..exc im place of the freak 10 bolt I have. Also swapping from a xe268 cam to a xe284. Adding a victor jr. Intake in place of a performer rpm. Afr 195cc competition ported heads(flow about 300cfm) in place of some old school dart 200cc heads. And also installing a PTC 8 inch 4800 stall converter in place of a freak show 3500. I run a th350 with a brake and rev. Full man valve body. But I don't use the t-brake because of the sketchy 10 bolt.
For appearance I will be redoing the engine bay area as it's messy. The original v8 swap took me 3 days after work to get it race ready so it's not the neatest. Also the paint job on the vehicle may or may not take place but if it all works out I'll have a fresh paint job as the car itself is not rusty or anything like that. It's just the cleat coat that has flaked off on the plastic over time and I have a 4 inch cowl id like to match as well.
The goal is to take a 11.60 car and have it run 10.90s next spring. It runs 1.57-1.60 60 foots consistently. I hope to be pushing 1.50 flat come spring. I do have a ton of suspension work done not much of anything is stock except for the front k member and arms. Race weight is 3380. It's still a full interior car and street capable at any time.
Added some pics enjoy.
3.4/3400 hybrid V6 15psi of boost with n20 for spool up. Borgwarner s366 t4 turbo
And congrats on all you accomplished with the V6-60. A fun little engine in it's own right, especially the way you built it.
Thanks. It definitly was a fun engine to play with and race. Now I just have a boring V8. But now I'm finally competitive bracket racing. One day is like to build up a 3900 turbo 6 in another camaro. Probly won't happen for a along time but at least I know how to make it happen.
Yes, I'd like to build a 3.9 for another car myself. Dry intake you know...good stuff.
Mars is out at dragweek right now. He had a personal best of a 10.4x@130ish mph. Hes got a 3900 turbo thirdgen camaro. Impressive. Hes the one thirdgen V6 i could never beat...time wise. But im happy to see so many thirdgens out at drag week.
On a side note im hoping to swap in the strange s60 this weekend at last!!!
Love the sound of that SBC motor going down the track!
Someday, I hope you'll let me pick your brain about V6 motors.
Thanks man and anytime. I'll never forget what I've learned about the V6s.
Took the car arround the block last night. Even on drag radials that are 10 inches wide. She doesn't hook unless you are going over 40mph lol tq monster.
Well this weekend im tossing on the afr heads then ill be racing next sunday. Hoping just from the head swap to possibly pick up a tenth... if im lucky. I really dont know how much these old school dart 200cc heads flow compared to the afrs. I know the afrs are like 280cfm at the lift my current cam is, and when i toss in the new one over the winter itll be more like 300cfm.
Id love to run a 11.5 anything.. hopefully its cool out as when its hot it runs 11.67-69 consistently and its the end of the year so i just wana go fast.
Once im done next sunday racing the car is getting winterized for the season and i can begin to swap in the s60 rear end, the xe284, the victor jr intake, and the PTC converter. It should be a wild ride come spring... crossing my fingers for low 11s high 10s. I also will be sheading about 100lbs from the head swap (-50lbs) the front brakes are going to be a areospace drag race kit with the spindles (-50lbs) also the strange rear end disk brake kit (-25 lbs) but even with the gun drilled axles, and race lightened spool the rear end still weights 228lbs which is about 30lbs more then my current 10 bolt so ill be adding that back in. But I should be able to get the car down to about 3100lbs as it weights about 3200 now (3380 race weight)
A few updates. I began installing the new strange s60. Love this rear end. Everything is bolting up like stock so far. Just need to attach a few things like the drag bar and tq arm.
Almost done with the head swap as well. I had to wait on head gaskets so i could get a good quench. The enigne did have .051 and now itll have .043 which is good enough for me. I knew the previous owner had it decked and such but had to check it a few times myself to be sure of the Piston deck.
I'm hopeful I'll have the rear end done and heads by this weekend so I can go racing. I doubt it will be much faster then it was before although I'm expecting a better 60 foot with the 4.10 gears compared to the 3.23s I ran before. My previous 60 foot best was a 1.58 so im hoping for a solid 1.55 or lower.
Thoughts on how the new heads will affect longevity of the motor?
I don't see it affecting that although within the next few season I need to rebuild the engine. It's had a solid 4 season of bracket racing on it so it'll be due soon. My guess is about 400+ 1/4 mile passes so far. I've personally put 68 of them on it this year.
The winter project is a roller conversion. Bought a xr286r. Solid roller. Should be here today via summit. 248/254 at .050. Comp recommended this cam and to be honest I had my eye on it already or the smaller 280r. I also have a 2 piece timing cover with cam button kit, solid roller lifters, and girdle coming. Will get pushrods later as I want to verify they will be 7.20-7.40"
My current cam is a xe268 hydo flat t. Way too small for my set up and is robbing me once I put the larger stall in. The 4.10 gears I put in, already has shifted the usable rpm band arround.
This cam will really wake up the car and get my rpm band where I want it with the ptc 4800 8 inch stall, 4.10 gears and other supporting mods.
I'll post up some pics as this is a retrofit roller conversion but doesnt look to hard to be honest.
We have similar engines. I have a set of AFR pre-eliminator competition ported heads, (Flow numbers on mine if you're interested: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...r-195-afr.html) ~10.75:1 compression, cam slightly smaller than yours. Moving from the 268 to a 286 was a great choice. I ran the 280 XFI on my 383 and unless the idle was extremely low (600-800 range) you would think that it was just a mild cam. I wasn't as impressed with it as people said I would be. I switched to a slightly larger cam which like you, has a 110 LSA and I don't have any trouble idling and I am enjoying it. With your 4.10 gears I don't think you'd have a problem driving it out and about I certainly don't have trouble with mine and I have 3.45 gears.
I've never had the car on a dragstrip and with what I've done with the car it probably won't ever be allowed on a dragstrip (shaved door handles, trunk mounted battery) so I can't give you any timeslips.
Why did you go with the 195s over the 210s? I'm a big proponent of 195's on most 350/383 engines but in your case I thought you would have gone with 210s.
I'm not familiar with that double adjustable rod end turnbuckle that is just above the rear lower control arm, what is it?
That is a rear drag bar. Or anti roll bar. Takes place of a rear sway bar. Helped my car launch evenly. It use to pull one tire off the ground when launching and was very violent. Now I have it adjusted so it lifts both tires evenly and alot less flex on the rear end.
We have similar engines. I have a set of AFR pre-eliminator competition ported heads, (Flow numbers on mine if you're interested: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...r-195-afr.html) ~10.75:1 compression, cam slightly smaller than yours. Moving from the 268 to a 286 was a great choice. I ran the 280 XFI on my 383 and unless the idle was extremely low (600-800 range) you would think that it was just a mild cam. I wasn't as impressed with it as people said I would be. I switched to a slightly larger cam which like you, has a 110 LSA and I don't have any trouble idling and I am enjoying it. With your 4.10 gears I don't think you'd have a problem driving it out and about I certainly don't have trouble with mine and I have 3.45 gears.
I've never had the car on a dragstrip and with what I've done with the car it probably won't ever be allowed on a dragstrip (shaved door handles, trunk mounted battery) so I can't give you any timeslips.
Why did you go with the 195s over the 210s? I'm a big proponent of 195's on most 350/383 engines but in your case I thought you would have gone with 210s.
I opted for the 195 competition (race) porting.... not street porting, because of the flow. Over 300cfm while retaining smaller ports to maximize velocity. And because a friend who was a vendor had a brand new set which he sold me for 1400 bucks new in box. The competition (race) ported heads are over 2100 bucks.....
Flow and specs below, amazing a 195 head that can possibly flow 295cfm at .500 lift
Here is my year in review for 2017. A much better season then last year when I never even made it to a race because of my moms battle with stage 4 nscl lung cancer. This year was a ton of fun and i won more rounds this year then ever before.
Swapping in a Xr286r comp cam solid roller cam with a 2 piece timing cover.
So in all the mods I will have on the car since i ran 11.60s are AFR competition 195 heads(300cfm+) Victor Jr intake +1inch taller, Strange s60 rear with 4.10s, PTC 8 inch 4800 custom stall converter, and a comp cam Xr286r solid roller with comp cam roller lifters, and also disk brakes out back and areospace drag kit disks up front with alum spindles.
Im hoping i can pick up a good half a second if im lucky with the old small block.
So hopefully in the next week or 2 i can finish up the cam, degree it, which it will be installed at 0* straight up, and we can get it back up and running by x mas time or new years, at least thats the plan lol
Old vs new heads and the shape its in now. I sold those old dart heads dang easy. They were good heads, just needed ported alot to really get the most out of them.
Have made some progress over the past cold winter month. I was on the fence between a xr286r and a xr288 or 294hr well I had a xr288hr litterly fall into my hands for 100 bucks new in box. The afr heads had .650 lift capable springs on them designed for hydro roller. So even though it's more mild that's what I went with because of cost.
I got the cam installed and pushrods came out to be 7.2125 long. Engine had been decked to .012 so that's my only explanation why most use around 7.3 for a retro fit roller on a old sbc, and i. Using 7.2125.
Cam degreed in just right. Has 4 degree advance built in. 110lsa 106 centerline. Lobe lift cam out just a touch higher the advertised. I installed it straight up. 0 degree. I was thinking of retarding it 4 degrees but with the 2 piece timing cover I can always change it later if I feel I need my power band moved up higger.
So all in all I spent about 750 bucks including the 2 piece timing cover on a retro hydo roller conversion . If I would have went solid roller it was looking more like 1200 bucks so being on a budget I'm happy with what the cam should do.
Keep in mind I ran a xe268 cam before with 1.5 rockers. Lift didn't go over .500 and durration at .050 was 224/230 and ran 11.60s so roughly 420ish crank hp. 350-380rwhp oh yea and ancient dart iron heads as fast.
Now I have 236/242 (12 more degrees of durration) and .555 .576" of lift. Perfect area for the afr heads. Cfm will be right on time. And the ramp of these lobes is amazing compared to a flat t cam.
I also painted the headers with por15 exhaust paint.
installed the ptc 8 inch 4700 converter.
So now that it's all taken care of and installed right I'll bolt it all back together and run with it. Hoping for 500 ish crank HP or 400 ish rwhp and engine is safe up to 6500rpm all day but the cam will probly max out at 6100-6200 which is fine with me. My gear ratio 4.10s tire size and converter slip of the ptc should let me go 6300 at 125mph.. more then I think it will do anyways.
I will be heading to a dyno with some friends in March so we can see how it all works out.
Keep in mind I ran a xe268 cam before with 1.5 rockers. Lift didn't go over .500 and durration at .050 was 224/230 and ran 11.60s so roughly 420ish crank hp. 350-380rwhp oh yea and ancient dart iron heads as fast.
Now I have 236/242 (12 more degrees of durration) and .555 .576" of lift. Perfect area for the afr heads. Cfm will be right on time. And the ramp of these lobes is amazing compared to a flat t cam.
Our cams duration and lift are almost spot on but the valve timing events differ. I'm quite happy with it but mine is more of a street/autocross/show application so I'm not sure how great you will find it at the strip. I'll sure be interested to hear about it via results. Although there was (still may be) an article on AFR's website of their 383 with AFR heads and a 236 Hydraulic Roller cam that made 500 crank hp/tq.
The 0.555"/0.576" numbers are with a 1.6 rocker, did you upgrade from the 1.5 rocker?
Our cams duration and lift are almost spot on but the valve timing events differ. I'm quite happy with it but mine is more of a street/autocross/show application so I'm not sure how great you will find it at the strip. I'll sure be interested to hear about it via results. Although there was (still may be) an article on AFR's website of their 383 with AFR heads and a 236 Hydraulic Roller cam that made 500 crank hp/tq.
The 0.555"/0.576" numbers are with a 1.6 rocker, did you upgrade from the 1.5 rocker?
Yes they are 1.6 comp cam gold rockers. I've had them on the engine for quite a while. They came with the engine when I got it so I've left them be.
Yea I hope I can get arround that 500 mark. It'll be a fun strip street car forsure.
Update the engine is back together and only a few more hrs of work and itll be back up and running at last. Hoping i get the time to finish it off in the next week or 2. And then in 2 months its track time. In hopes of shattering that 11.62 best et and running low 11s at least.
Update the car started right up on the 1st crank. Sounds different with the roller Cam and it likes to rev up. I just need to set the timing better and the fuel pressure and do a little clean up and well be on the road.
After playing with the air bleeds and such I think I finally have the idle circuit where I want it. All plugs are good. 14-14.5 afr. Idles pretty good at 850rpm. About 12 inches of vac in park hot. About 10-11 inches in gear hot idle.
Now with the overlap I have on this Cam the moderate duration which is 236/242@.050 It sorta normal for a cheap vacuum gauge that doesn't have a dampening part in it to bounce about 1-2 inch up and down at idle basically with the lope of the cam. You can see it on the vacuum gauge on the video below.
My previous experience with cams usually have a much greater LSA. 112-115. This one has 110. 106 centerline.
Update. Cars about ready yo racer April 29th hopefully we are racing and testing the car. Need to get a serpentine belt for the new alt. Set up, but else then that I need to finish off the exhaust so i can drive it on the road, but that can wait as i dont need full exhaust to race. Doug's long tube 1 3/4 headers sound good enough as is for now.
Still hoping for low low 11s iv I'm lucky. I need to mount my 28 inch pro radials in place of the 26s so I can hold my reps at the trap around 6300 6400 ish iv i can make 122+mph.
i recently dynoed the car and am waiting on the email of the graph and such but it laid down 419rwhp@6200 and 438rwtq at 4900 so I feel it's a good 10.90-11.20 car with a strong 60 foot... 1.48-1.52
i recently dynoed the car and am waiting on the email of the graph and such but it laid down 419rwhp@6200 and 438rwtq at 4900 so I feel it's a good 10.90-11.20 car with a strong 60 foot... 1.48-1.52
Thats great! how much spark advance did you have and what was your air to fuel ratio?
Thats great! how much spark advance did you have and what was your air to fuel ratio?
spark advance is locked at 34 degrees btdc. Afr begins at 12.6 and settles into 13.0 at 6k rpm.
worked on the car a bit. Since I'll be racing this Sunday, hoping for no rain, I need to toss in the good 8 inch ptc 4800-4900rpm converter and finish off a few odds and ends. Made some progress yesterday.
Your engine is very responsive.
But your tach is sleeping - your shift light is right there, but it seems like the tach is 2K-3K rpm behind.
Did anyone else notice this, or is it just me?
Good luck on Sunday. I hope you shatter your goal.
Your engine is very responsive.
But your tach is sleeping - your shift light is right there, but it seems like the tach is 2K-3K rpm behind.
Did anyone else notice this, or is it just me?
Good luck on Sunday. I hope you shatter your goal.
You are definitely right. My tech is slow to respond and always has been for some reason. Doesn't matter what msd box, or if it's a v6 or v8... always been like that. Thankfully the shift light has always been right on time. I have looked into why it's like this, if I should just buy a new tach or if it's something I can fix on it. But I'm still unsure.
Thanks and I'll be sure to post a update no matter the outcome Sunday.
Yea I've noticed that there is some fakes out there. I got mine from summitracing so it better be the real deal... but I still need to contact autoguage/meter and see if there is anything I can do to correct the responding issue.
Thanks. Hopefully going back racing 2 weeks from yesterday. Now that its fast we need to get it consistent to compete in pro class which is harder then I'm use to.
Update. Heading to the track Sunday for a points race. Weather will be rough. 96 for a high and humid. So no Hope's on fast times. I'll be happy with high 10.80s at best with DA that bad. I'll be sure to post up some vids/pics. It's my first fathers day as well which makes it all the better!
Wow I havent updated this in a long time. Alot has taken place since.
Sadly a few weeks after my 10 second passes actually iirc 16 10 second passes in total, the rods said see ya! Locked up at 125mph right at the finish line. Scary situation and thankfully I kept it off the wall and came to a stop without trashing the car. Pics below (I'll add some later when at home) of the carnage thankfully i didnt wound those pretty afr heads
So I borrowed a merlin 509 bbc from a friend so I could get back racing asap. I built headers fro it in anoit 30 hrs of work and back we went. Ran a best of 11 15@121mph. Man with iron heads that bbc was heavy. Bbc supposedly had 500+hp. 550+ tq but I didnt have the right rpm range let alown converter for the set up so the times were sub par
When I broke the 385 sbc it also took out the trans I had. Cracked the case terribly. So i got a new ATI 850hp+ capible th350 with a brake of course. This thing has every hardened or aftermarket input output shaft drum etc. there is.
I raced the bbc as it was for a good 3 months and it did well. Tons of tq. Just didnt have that high rpm power I needed at the track. So I got a kit from chris straub. A solid roller cam, promaxx straub assembled 317 alum heads, new rockers, moral sportsman solid roller lifters, a victor jr ported and matched to the heads intake, the goal is 750-750hp at s peak rpm of 7000. Which would be quite amazing.
Background on the merlin 509 engine. It has a aftermarket merlin II block. 4340 goodies all arround, forged pistons exc and a package capible of 1000hp. So needless to say what I'm doing to it is not harsh on it to say the least.
So I have strains goodies to toss in soon as the fridge 0 degree days pass I already was running the ATI transmission and it will stay in there after talking with ATI on multiple conversations they back it with a big block up to 850hp or 800 tq all day long.
I also have a new Transmission specialties bokt together spragless converter custom to the straub goodies 5500 launch on a t brake and shifting at 7200 rpm.
So the goals come spring are low 10s or possibly high 9s. Personally I'll be happy with low 10s as much faster and safety cost goes up dramatically.
Also since my last post on here I've had a beautiful daughter who is constantly in the garage with me, shes almost a year old now. And we got a new home. Life is good.
You're really putting a lot of money into this and if you'd be happy with low 10s then I've got to ask, why not just do a junkyard 5.3 with 20 lbs of boost and be done? Youre obviously not afraid of engine swaps and you know about turbos already. There are several guys on the MS boards who run 9's with a total investment of $2K and you probably have that in just your heads and intake you just bought. Not to mention it would be so much lighter.
You're really putting a lot of money into this and if you'd be happy with low 10s then I've got to ask, why not just do a junkyard 5.3 with 20 lbs of boost and be done? Youre obviously not afraid of engine swaps and you know about turbos already. There are several guys on the MS boards wh2o run 9's with a total investment of $2K and you probably have that in just your heads and intake you just bought. Not to mention it would be so much lighter.
Good idea in theory but.. this is a competitive bracket racing car. I did the turbo thing for many years and it has no place in bracket racing. Not consistant at all! That's reason number 1. I've won more races in 2 years with N/A v8s then 10 years with my turbo 6 and nitrous combos.
Reason 2.. bbc for the win. To have 700hp with 10:1 compression all motor and be drivable on 93 octane. That's something a ls just isnt going to do without power adders. And although the weight is more after my alum heads are on my car will only come in at 3400 race weight which isnt bad for a full interior car with a 8pt roll cage and strange S60 bullet proof rear end.
reason 3.. sorry but no way in hellll I'm running 800hp on a stock ls block, rods, exc junk yard special. Not happening!!! I'll take my massive aftermarket block and 4340 forged crank, rods, and pistons all day long.
I could go one and on, truth is I'm not a fan of the whole junk yard ls thing. All motor vs all motor a proper bbc will kill a little ls all day long bracket racing then it all comes back to the whole carburated na set hp for bracket racing again.
Go out to your local drag strip and look for any and every car that runs 10 seconds flat or faster. Look and see what their engine combo is and I guarantee 70% of them are big block Chevy's with 500 plus cubic inch motors. The other 20 percent sbc and 10 percent ls based. OHH I forgot the .9 percent fords out there haha
Reliablity is the number one goal and bracket racing expressional I once you get to be about 600 horsepower plus on a purpose built car such as what I have. Fast is #2 and well cheep has no place there. I've learned my lesson many times over. My 4.0 stroke and 4.5 bore is the perfect high reving combo. And to say 10 flat is my goal. Well my goals are always conservative sp I can be sure to hit them.
The ole 700-750hp straub top end Merlin 509 is alive and running. Dont mind the steam smoke from the exhaust wrap in the vid. Fresh wrap and well we all know that stuff stinks litterly.
Mabey racing Sunday if weather is good. Aiming for 10 flat or so. Nothing too crazy till its dialed in.
09-14-2017, 06:09 AM
