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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
So my 1989 Firebird has been living in my workshop only driven a few miles a year since oh 2007... today I just bought a 2000 firebird with a non rebuidable title via insurance auction. It's a ls1/T56 car. It's a flood car but runs and drives but with so many flood cars in tx a lot are getting the kills vin status. Even after shipping and auction fees it was cheaper than a ls1/t56 off eBay. It has 92k miles. My 89 has 215k original 305 and the 700r4 has about 30k on it.
I plan on the obvious parts to be used from the 2000. I'm debating a bmr kmember or just notching the kmember, suggestions?
Brakes front and rear (maybe rear axel though I don't like how it pushes the tires out). I may do so until I buy a built rear end.
Gas tank
Wireing dependent on water damage
Ls1/t56
Looking the 2000 key cylinder will fit the 89 column so will probably keep the vats enabled (any one do this) since I have keys and the 89 firebird has vats.
Pedal assembly
Clutch and brakes master cylinder
I will probably keep as much of the exhaust as I can, will the 2000 manifolds and cats fit?
Are the fuel lines worth fitting over?
So are there any non obvious parts I should pull before scraping the leftovers?
How much of the AC can I use and keep the 89 dash setup.
I want to keep the 89 gauges does anyone know if the 89 auto cluster has the shift light just not used... not that is important but would be cool to have it working.
I already have sub frame connectors in the 89. It will continue to be a weekend cruiser so I don't need to over do the suspension.
Also if anyone wants the 2000 body it would be a good track car or parts I'll sell it cheap to recoup some money and avoid the hassle of parting it out. I will also be selling the 305/700r4 engine in spite of the miles doesn't smoke and starts instantly, much of the miles where at 70mph in overdrive I never abused it. 700r4 was rebuilt 30k miles ago in 01 with some mild upgrades but I can't find the paperwork on that. Anyways pm me on any parts I'm not sure my timeline yet on dismantling it.
Sorry for the long post I'm excited to actually be getting around to do this, I'm a long time user of this board but I've been dormant for more than a decade.
I actually JUST uploaded a video regarding all your questions on my channel yesterday. I ran through the A/C, exhaust, fuel system, clutch and wiring. The y pipe isn't gonna fit, the manifolds will work though. I explained everything I did below.
Nice set up, luckily the firebirds started with electrical speedos in 89 so I'm good there, I was afraid of piecemeal approach would cost me more in the end that is why I got the whole car. It sounded like you came in at what 5k on the swap at least to the running mark? I'll make my harness from the 4th gen if it's in good shape otherwise I'll have to explore aftermarket harnesses.
One point the umi k member will not work with the AC in the lower position that is why I'm looking at BMi mainly for clearance though your set up looked to have enough clearance.
Yea you would need to notch the k memer for the ls compressor and the back for the oil pan. If you get one of those high mount compressor brackets, you would just have to notch the back for the pan. Tubular k members have plenty of clearance.
The donor car should be at my house by early next week, question with the airbags can I just disconnect the battery and wait a few hours then disconnect and remove the airbags so I don't have to worry about setting them off during the process of dismantling the donor.
I got the engine and transmission out of the 89 last week and pressure washed the engine bay and underside of the car. I'm going to just paint the bay and tunnel satin black as I intend this to be a driver not a show car.
Engine and Trans removed and engine bay pressure washed.
Here are the pictures of the car from the insurance auction (coparts). It is a flood car but it has been verified to run and drive. I may have to do a new harness if I see any signs of corrosion in the wiring harness.
The 89 cluster should have the shift light. 90-92 GM used that spot for the airbag warning light.
The thirdgen lock cylinder and vats key are compatible with the later vats system, but the signal the thirdgen vats module sends to the ecm is different than the later car's ecm needs. To make it work you'd need to have a key blank with the correct resistance vats key, cut to fit whichever ignition lock cylinder you use, and you'd have to wire in the 4th gen BCM since the vats module is built into the BCM. Really iffy if the BCM is worth messing with, easier to just bypass the vats altogether.
I'm emailing with pocket about building a harness I'll let you know I'm not sure if the fact that its built for a t5 etc if it would work in the auto car I'm putting this in... seems like it should work but I'm not sure.
The 2000 arrived at my house today... put a battery in it and drove it off the trailer... I need to go through the fluids and then I want to test it out if I can find a private parking lot or track or something to make sure it shifts through the gears cleanly the t56 transmission seemed pretty good in first and rev.
The AC works... the keyless entry works... really the only thing that doesn't work on the donor is the driver window I was expecting all kinds of doesn't work since its a flood car.
I changed all the fluids on the donor car so I trusted driving it some (can't drive it on the road due to title wish I had access to a private parking lot or something guess I could take it to the drag strip...) Everything checks out, the black mark in my driveway says the posi locks good so I may use the 4th gen rear end until I recoup some $$ to buy a proper one. I wanted to verify everything was good while in "Stock" form before ripping it apart.
It looks like the T56 had Redline Shockproof in it... I had never seen it before but after searching the internet it matches color and consistency of what drained out. I'm a little concerned that it was too thick for the t56 so we will see how long it lasts, and there were 6 qts in it (vs the ~4 to the fill plug). It could possibly have been water contamination with ATF fluid but it wasn't the right consistency for that. I may take some ATF and mix in water and see what that looks like just for the reassurance. The thing shifts through fine using dex/merc. At least its a manual if it is water as the auto clutch disk are water salable so it would be toast. -- I'll probably go with the acdelco manual fluid once I install it in the 1989 unless someone has a convincing argument to use something else. The engine oil was old but clean and had no water in it.
I brought it up to running temps and everything checked out. The bearing in the Alternator sounds bad so I'll replace that during the swap.
There is no check engine light but there is a strong "sucking air" sound so I want to verify the intake etc I'm thinking the line between the MAF and the air cleaner may be leaking if it was between the MAF and the throttle body it wouldn't idle right and would probably throw a code. I'll run it this week with the OBD2 android interface so I can watch all the numbers just to verify...
I ordered the BMR K-Member, A-arms, and Spring perch (staying with stock ws6 springs for now), and their T56 cross member. So I'm cheating there by avoiding fabricating things. I also ordered the grand prix fuel sending unit so I can make the 4th gen tank work with the 3ed gen gauge.
I decided I'm going to keep the car emissions legal since my county is likely to implement it in the next few years. I may try to find a LS6 intake and delete the EGR like the 01/02 cars came stock. So AIR and cats for sure.
So this should be fun... I have 3 weeks off work between now and the end of the year so I plan on having it running in the 1989 by end of the year. I'm sure I'll be chasing down things like Gauges and AC beyond that but my goal is to be able to drive it around the Neighbor hood at least once by then...
My goal is a street cruiser with a pro-touring vibe -- I know alot of effort and money not to be building a show or race car but its about the journey and my son is enjoying helping along the way.
Last edited by Aviator857; 11-13-2017 at 03:15 PM.
These cars are great father son projects. Safety first, of course. My son loves helping me in the garage. Working on the car is a great opportunity to spend time with the boy and teach those life lessons. Patience, problem solving, patience, organization, patience, procedures, etc.
i know you don’t want to spend too much. While you have the T56 out, it’s a good opportunity to rebuild and upgrade it. I used a local shop called TX Drive Train and Performance. I got a stage 2 rebuild, and the transmission shifts well and feels good.
I want to keep the 89 gauges does anyone know if the 89 auto cluster has the shift light just not used... not that is important but would be cool to have it working.
Mine does ('89 2.8L 5-speed) but the light bulb was never installed at the factory. The link below shows you the location in the gage pod and which wire.
My guess is there is always power at the bulb (with key ON) and the light is illuminated by grounding the circuit. I'm not sure what you are thinking of doing with it but you will be less than impressed once you see it in action. Not useful as a racing style shift light.
Even if you don't want great suspension, get rid of the stock strut towers - they're shot!
I would keep the engine bay white, just my opinion. Black is too dark and looks 'hacked' against the white car. Even a rattle can white is fine for the engine bay, just bag and tape up all electronics.
Consider moving the battery to the passenger side - you can put the air cleaner in the old battery position. This helps weight distribution, some. Ask Pocket if it's not too late.
"old strut towers"? Do you mean the thing the strut mounts to on the strut tower? If so those only have about 15 k miles on them.
I bought a qrt of ppq primer sealer and satin black I'm going to spray that. I'm thinking of doing the body in late model infinity pearl white and that will not look right against Camaro white.
Yes, even with only 15k, you haven't driven the car for a while - ten years. There are rubber bushings that rot and crack over time, or even deflect a lot when new. You'll have everything apart, why not? It's the single best suspension upgrade there is without debate (serious debate, anyway). The strut mounts and the struts themselves are most important.
I'll probably convert over to the coil over in the near future, or at least get some quality struts. I just got the BMR k-member and a-arms with spring perches in so I will run the stock WS6 springs for now. The struts on the car are not anything to brag about but I replaced them last year when I did all new linkages and steering gear.
I like to do these projects to a scale that I know I will get it back running/driving if I keep tacking on I should replace this and that I might as well do a full restromod on it which would probably turn into never finishing it LOL
Well almost ready for sanding... I'm considering a change in direction on engine bay color ... Gun metal grey to match bottom of car I will keep that color but go with a better white on the body so it works.
Opps I took apart my car Test fit BMR kmember... Fit pretty well. Still need to make some filler panels hit it with primer since it is humid here raw steal will rust quicjly.
Well she is installed... still need to finish plumbing, wiring, and exaust. Also replaced the AC evaporator and condenser with new parts... have all new AC lines... debating on going ahead and buying a new compressor while I'm at it... the donor car had leak detector dye in it which says there was a leak somewhere.
Intake is just sitting there, I wanted to make sure the throttle cable and gas lines lined up.
First bolt in.
The trans cross member and the sub-frame connectors don't quite get alone For now just using spacers to pull it back in alignment.
Ended up making new fuel lines from tank to engine... This allows me to use the soft lines from the 2000 donor car. Zip ties are just to hold them while shaping it. WIllwood prop valve. Used an adapter for the rear line and cut and flared the front lines.
Looks good. Looks like you did almost the same thing as me. I bought the entire car from copart also. The one I bought was wrecked in the front. I am just about done now. I just need to finish the exhaust. I was going to use the rear end but the car was from NJ and the spring mounts on the rear were almost rusted off.
Wish I was to that point. Are you running the third or fourth gen radiator? I’m debating which one to use. Looks like you are running the 4th gen under hood fuse block, I’m planning on doing that also.
Exhaust is my next step I’m trying to build it mostly emissions legal although they don’t test where I live. I’m planning on using what I can from the 2k exhaust. I may just do air and cats and delete the egr.
I used the 3rd gen radiator. The one in the donor car was cracked from the wreck. I used the 4th gen fans and cut the third gen shroud to fit over the top of them.
I used the 4th gen fuse box and it worked great. I ran the wires from the fuse box all the way under the rear seat and cut the metal to accept the 4th gen plug to plug underneath for the 4th gen fuel tank.
I had to get the hawks headers because I notched the k-member for the A/C compressor. With the 4th exhaust manifolds I couldn't get the lines on the back of the compressor. I now think the headers look better too.
The donor car had headers and an x pipe and no factory pieces. I didn't know that until it arrived. They don't test emissions here either. I'm not sure if I'll go with converters in the exhaust yet.
I also used the front brakes. I bought a conversion kit. I took the calipers apart and had them powder coated.
Looks good. I may eventually get the brakes powder coated. I was able to fit in the 2k manafolds and cats. I cut the pipe on the cats and reclocked the brackets and angles. Just seam welded it. Almost done making the y-pipe.
Looks good. I may eventually get the brakes powder coated. I was able to fit in the 2k manafolds and cats. I cut the pipe on the cats and reclocked the brackets and angles. Just seam welded it. Almost done making the y-pipe...
im doing a similar thing as to be fully emissions legal with air injection and egr. But... am I mistaken that a 2k shouldn’t have egr? I see your ports match mine (98 LS1) and I have been very confused with my air injection layout with that forward facing port. Do you have a picture of your air lines I can compare mine to?
I'm thinking about using this sensor for temperature, I've emailed them to confirm but it appears its a dual sensor designed to feed the PCM and the gauge -- does anyone have the ohm range of the stock 89 sender and the 00 sender off hand?
Is the 98 sender ohm range right for the gauge in the 89 I thought it was slightly different ohms?
Also I plan on running the oil sensor from the 2000 in original location and the oil sender from the 89 mounted beside the oil filter (using an aftermarket plate vs drilling out and taping that part)== is there a oil sender out there that will work to drive the PCM and the 89 gauge? I have HP tuners so I can modify tune if needed
The stock gages in your car aren't accurate enough to be fussing about these things. When I look at my gages I don't read numbers, I read patterns of what looks normal vs. abnormal. And I don't get concerned unless things look abnormal.
You don't need to wire the LS1 oil pressure sender to the engine PCM. The PCM doesn't use the signal for anything. All it did in the 4th gen car was convert to a different kind of signal that the oil pressure gage could understand. Your older 3rd gen gages can be operated by the sender itself and oil pressure will read in a normal range and fluctuate up and down as you would expect. I think my gage runs around 60 psi while driving.
Same answer for the temp sender. The temp gage will operate and the needle will rise to something in normal range, and you will be able to tell if the engine overheats or is running cold. My engine got hot one time after losing the belt and the temp gage did it's job and went really high (pegged out actually).
The stock gages in your car aren't accurate enough to be fussing about these things. When I look at my gages I don't read numbers, I read patterns of what looks normal vs. abnormal. And I don't get concerned unless things look abnormal.
You don't need to wire the LS1 oil pressure sender to the engine PCM. The PCM doesn't use the signal for anything. All it did in the 4th gen car was convert to a different kind of signal that the oil pressure gage could understand. Your older 3rd gen gages can be operated by the sender itself and oil pressure will read in a normal range and fluctuate up and down as you would expect. I think my gage runs around 60 psi while driving.
Same answer for the temp sender. The temp gage will operate and the needle will rise to something in normal range, and you will be able to tell if the engine overheats or is running cold. My engine got hot one time after losing the belt and the temp gage did it's job and went really high (pegged out actually).
Exactly.
The 98 temp sensor is close enough for the 3rd gen gauge, I am running one in my car. Temp holds rock steady with the AC on and driving and then creeps up when I hit traffic, until the fans come on. Don't care what the temp is as long as it isn't too high. I have verified this using a bluetooth OBDII adapter so I can see what the actual values are in the ECM. I know where the normal temp is and I know where it should be once the fans kick on, more than that and I know something is going wrong.
Same with the oil pressure. I just look to make sure it is registering something. Sits on the 30 mark while I am hot idle, and the mark between the 30 and 60 when I am driving. Don't know if it is actually 45 or not, but it's fine for what I am doing
Understood I don't care if they are clinically accurate but I wanted min, median, max to be within range so when I do the scan all the needles are where I expect them.
I am planning on putting a android powered head unit in eventually to replace the radio and will be running a interface to the scan port... though I don't know if I ever verified the oil pressure feeds into the Torque app before I pulled the 2k apart so that may be pointless to worry about. I definitely don't want to be the guy with the 2k cluster zip tied to the column when I'm done I know the temp gauge on the 2k cluster was basically a mechanical idiot light.
Anyways I want the gauges to work as best as they can and the engine to look as stock as I can, my main goal is everything should be off the shelf.
I'm hoping I can get it fired up this weekend and then start working on putting the front clip back on, I pulled it for painting the bay and also so I didn't damage the fenders etc with the engine work.
QwkTrip I just read through your build post... man crazy amount of work. I 1/2 way thought about doing the speedhut gauges just so I didn't have to mess with the fuel sender.
I also didn't think about the thridgen heater valve not working with the ls1 even though I knew it had to circulate in a bypass mode when no heat selected so that valve should be here Sunday, though I ordered the AC delco part based on the reviews of the 4 season part I saw.
QwkTrip I just read through your build post... man crazy amount of work.
Oh, I feel so sorry for you. That thread has gotten way too large to be enjoyable to read.
Yes, it was a much bigger job than I thought I was signing up for. I was pretty inexperienced and had to learn almost everything from scratch. Not fun at times and not sure I'd ever do it again.
Originally Posted by Aviator857
I 1/2 way thought about doing the speedhut gauges just so I didn't have to mess with the fuel sender.
I never did install those gages. Just sitting assembled in a gage pod here on my desk. Truth is a really like my stock gages and I've just put up with the tachometer lagging behind when above 6000 rpm. It doesn't matter on the street where I use only 1st and 2nd gear for hard pulls. But it is annoying on the track where I run out in 3rd and 4th and never sure when to shift.
Well I've added the battery (still with the ECU not plugged up)
I verified that all things go hot when in the run position, things that should not be hot in the off position... and manually tested the starter seems VATS is still in my way or something. But the good news is all the other wireing looks right and no shorts to ground. When I first connected the battery I did it with a 40 amp fuse between the battery and the ground so that if something was wrong the fuse would more than likely take the hit.
I want to keep the vats in place as a starter kill (I know probably more trouble than its worth). Vats was working with the 305 before I pulled it.
So without the 89 ecu in place the pass key module should do still work right? In the past when the key was dirty the "SECURITY" light in the cluster would come on (and it took about 10-15 min for it to reset to allow you to crank the car) if I tripped it, that didn't happen. So either the pass key module isn't getting power or something else is still disabling the starter.
I have the old shiftier park sensor plugged up as I've not wired the clutch starter disable up yet.
If I ground the bypass relay that will tell me if its the pass key right? Or does the park/clutch circuit also work by disconnecting the ground there also?
Not expecting it to run here but here was the first starter test off the key... Ran out of time this weekend I was hoping I could get it fired maybe next weekend.
"PASSKEY module will operate the start relay as usual, as long as the pellet in the key switch is correct"
I'm not finding this true it's acting like the pass key module isn't getting power and the only wires I've touched is the bulkhead and removing ecu. I'm thinking that maybe it is powered off one of the connectors at the ecu. The key lead is plugged up and I'm using the original key to the car that worked before I pulled the engine. No fuses are blown.
Grounding the relay worked, using a jumper wire to bypass relay worked. I've already reprogram the pcu for the ls1 to ignore VATS. Though eventually I want to program it to see the signwave from the old pass key module as in range.
My car is an early run 1989 TBI so it's the first fbodies with VATS, maybe it was slightly different but I doubt that I'll chase chase this latter on.
Last edited by Aviator857; 06-25-2018 at 06:25 AM.
Also not getting the "Security" light at all on initial key on or after I crank it so the module isn't tripping as it would light that security light if it was.
I was hoping to avoid pulling the dashboard so I may just stick with bypassing it until I get the engine running and the front clip back on it.
"PASSKEY module will operate the start relay as usual, as long as the pellet in the key switch is correct"
I'm not finding this true
I find it hard to believe too but somebody else that contributed to the thread says it is so. Maybe make sure the ground is present. I think PASSkey module uses same ground as the datalink so if datalink ground is good then so is PASSkey. On my car the ground was one of the wires that went through the passenger-side footwell out to the engine bay. I had accidentally removed it when I did all the wiring.
Security light is grounded by ECM so that is why it is not turning on.
Ok-- I don't have any of the wires still in place right now that goes trough the pass foot well to the engine (PCU is sitting on the AC box until I extend the harness), I didn't cut any wires so if it was grounded in those wires then there is a ground in one of those two connectors that go into the ECU bundle there under the passenger dash. If that is the case should be simple enough to trace it down... I'll have to look through my schematics to see if I have the pin outs on those connectors.
Once I figure it out I'll post to your other thread. Unfortunately you can't re map the PCU with HP Tuners (the one I have) to recognize the thirdgen passkey box but it can be done with other tuner software.
Someone tried to steal my car back in 2001 not that I leave it unattended at GA tech for weeks on end these days but I do like have some security beyond a key lock.
Oh, I feel so sorry for you. That thread has gotten way too large to be enjoyable to read.
Yes, it was a much bigger job than I thought I was signing up for. I was pretty inexperienced and had to learn almost everything from scratch. Not fun at times and not sure I'd ever do it again.
I never did install those gages. Just sitting assembled in a gage pod here on my desk. Truth is a really like my stock gages and I've just put up with the tachometer lagging behind when above 6000 rpm. It doesn't matter on the street where I use only 1st and 2nd gear for hard pulls. But it is annoying on the track where I run out in 3rd and 4th and never sure when to shift.
You could try using one of these to drive your tach and see if its more accurate this way.
Looking at the schematics the Passkey module is grounded through C207... I'm going to bet that is my issue, I'll try to test that tonight but C207 I don't believe is currently plugged up. If this https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...l#&gid=1&pid=1 is accurate for my car looks like if I ground pin M or which ever one is the black/white wire on my car then the pass key module should work.
Assuming my car is closer to the 88's wiring than the 92's if its closer than the 92's then the ground wire is in the bulkhead c100...
At any rate in your write up I would call out that depending on the year the ground in the c207 or the c100 needs to be maintained to keep vats in place.
Last edited by Aviator857; 06-25-2018 at 12:48 PM.
11-01-2017, 11:05 PM
I know the temp gauge on the 2k cluster was basically a mechanical idiot light.
That thread has gotten way too large to be enjoyable to read.