watajob

iTrader: (29)

So, sciatica/finger surgery/wife's arthritis notwithstanding, I should be able to spend some time working on the 'vert this winter. As the title states, I'm getting rid of the ol' 730, (while keeping my TPIS LTRs/Accel base/ported plenum), and using a self learning Holley Avenger in it's place. I've had 3 trips to 3 different, (expensive), tuning gurus. While the engine makes great power, none of them have been able to cure the unstable idle/light throttle surge off-idle. And, no. I'm not gonna' do it myself. At my age, I won't live long enough to learn it well enough. Plus, I'm lazy. And, yes, I've eliminated all other variables, (vacuum leak, IAC, etc). So, I have a coupla' ?s. Will I know when to say "when" as to how much of the old harness gets ripped out? And, what goes dead? I know the speedo and tach. I'm guessing the fuel pump and fans are gonna' need a hack. Any other gauges? Is VATS going to rear it's ugly head? Does the cruise control die? Any other "things" going to happen, so I don't flip out when they do? I already have a Dakota Digital speedo box on hand and a B&M controller for the convertor. Anything else I should purchase to make this as quick/easy/painless as possible?

LeeH

iTrader: (2)

Following.
Tune Time Performance did my CTS-V, And I asked him this very same question about my 89 with the 730 ECM. They recommended either going with the FAST system or the Holley system.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

So, at least I'm pointed in the right direction!

88Greg

That the Holley HP ecu right ? Nice unit. Integrated wideband. Sequential capable. You will need basically a whole new harness. You can use a VR pickup converter (like the yellow boxes Fbirds had) to input a VSS signal to the HP ecu, then its possible to have it control TCC lockup based on settable parameters. Can use that VSS output to drive stock speedo. Depending on ignition setup you can use stock tach as is.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Not the HP. The Avenger w/handheld screen. Not quite as sophisticated as the HP. No VSS input. And, I guess my question is; what constitutes a whole new harness? I don't want to be ripping stuff out only to find out later I needed it and should have left it where it was.

88Greg

Got a link to the system you have in mind ?
When I lookup avenger on the holley site, Its a packaged system with various intake manifolds and the HP ecu. Ypu plan to keep your existing intake ?. The HP ecu is capable of taking a "conditioned" VSS input. I have done it.


The holley ECU uses a different ECU connector than your existing harness. So work needed there. Also since the holley can do sequential, You will need a diff harness to take advantage (if desired) of that.


Where do you plan to mount the ECU ? stock interior location or in engine compartment (which the holley can do)

watajob

iTrader: (29)

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-822

Minus the manifold/fuel delivery pieces. I pieced it together through replacement part numbers for very cheap over the course of about a year with many of the parts, amazingly enough, gotten on Amazon. Also, I already have, in the engine right now, an MSD 8366 dizzy that I'm going to use. That's their default choice to take advantage of the timing map in the Avenger ECU.

88Greg

Ok, so that system uses the HP ecu :
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/554-113


It seems that you want to use your original intake-injectors etc. Depending on where and how you want to mount the ECU will affect your harness choice (custom or holley)
The holley HP ecu is very capable. It can do an LS engine crank wheel and individual coil spark. Or basic dizzy batch fire. Or anywhere in between. You choice how much of its capability you choose to use. The wiring harness must be configured accordingly.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

No. This is the ECU it uses: https://www.holley.com/products/disc.../parts/554-116

88Greg

That's the HP ecu just packaged differently. Holley has 3 ecu's basically : the HP, Dominator, and "sniper"(which is built into a TBI unit).

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Probably true but in this particular application, only so much of it is accessible due to the harness connections.

LeeH

iTrader: (2)

You should send a message to Tune Time on Facebook. These guys are FAST dealers and Holley as well. And he knows third Gen ECM’s and TPI.
When I got my LSA tuned, I sat there and bullshitted with Nick for a couple hours about the subject. He’s good!

https://www.facebook.com/TuneTimePerformance/?fref=ts

watajob

iTrader: (29)

113 is for people who know what they're doing... like you. The 116 is for technodunces... like me. Got it?

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Somehow, I'm thinkin' his attitude might be a bit different with me as I probably will never be sitting in his shop... with my checkbook!

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

im running the first edition of the ez EFI and got this system just a bit after it was released. i love it.

unfortunately i dont know whats needed on a 90-92 to make the cluster functional.

now as for my car its an 89 and i was able to remove my ECM and harness to clean things up and all of my gauges worked along with my cruz. i did have to run a SGI-5 box for my T-56 so my speedo would be correct.

the system im using (302000 retrofit) is only the harness, ecm, o2, hand held, and a few other things. its designed for the TPI gang and other port style intakes. this system dosent control timing so you would need to change your distributor because your orig unit wont work. im running a DUI 14000 divorced coil narrow cap.

the 30404-kit (i think thats right) is the 2.0 kit that DOES control timing and you can use the FAST 305005 distributor with it plug and play.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

It actually can't tune itself. You'll need to pay somebody to do a full tune all over again. And when that is done then you'll need to learn to tune it yourself because you'll be working on drivability for the next 2 years as a part-time hobby. Everything you complained about earlier will still have to be tuned by hand again. It will be a benefit having modern engine controller and software though.

"Self learn" is misleading because people take a leap of logic to mean "Self tune". Think of "self learn" as a closed loop mode that writes closed loop adjustments to the fuel table instead of just discarding it. Nothing really ground breaking here, just good advertising.

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

I'll second what you're being told. The Holley Avenger ECU IS the HP ECU. You just have to add more pins to the empty harness connector cavities and program them with a laptop. I'm using the Holley Terminator EFI system on mine. You can set some basic beginning criteria and it will take it from there. That's NOT to mean that it's plug and play. You'll still want to tweak settings to your engine build as it does basic tuning.
Join Holley's forum, there is a lot of info there. Danny is a wealth of knowledge, here's one of many links that explain the Avenger is a HP.
https://forums.holley.com/showthread...On-Avenger-ECU

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It's not just adjusting fuel trims, but typically spark advance, AE settings, etc. A lot of logic goes into self tuning algorithms. I don't know what this particular system has as I'm not experienced with it, but most products that are "Self learning" or "Self tuning" are not just closed loop.

When you have a lot of processing and memory, you can really analyze feedback from every sensor, including feedback from the coils to detect combustion event quality to optimize the tune.

You can watch throttle angle changes and RPM advances over time to determine how smooth the engine speed is changing.

-- Joe

W.E.G.

I'm the LAST guy who would bounce-back at you with the "drop an LS in it" taunt.

But, by the time you pay-for and do all the work to run a different ECU (or PCM, or whatever) - and which is going to to most likely involve a complete overhaul of the wiring harness, doesn't it make more sense to just buy a Painless harness, and (gulp... I hate to say it) "install" an LS?

Bringing the old girl up to full-modern motor and tuning potential will enhance the value of the car. If you throw a throttle-body/ECU kit of some sort on it, yes it wil be an improvement over the Pong/Nintendo ECU we have on our cars. Not so sure the next owner will be as impressed with your work as you will be.

I guess my reasoning is coming from the idea that by the time you have to completely re-do the wiring harness, you are into the most challenging part of any powerplant upgrade. Once the wiring harness is done, its just a matter of plucking the old motor out of there, and plugging in a new one. If I ever go through all that on a third-gen, it won't be to install a throttle-body anything... I don't care how awesome the vendor says it is.

The throttle-body kits make sense only if you have a really good reason to keep the old motor around. The best reason being that you already spent a ton of money on a really nice motor, and you're not happy with the carb system. I just can't see putting a new throttle body kit into any of the original third-gen motors.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I don't know of ANY "self tuning" system that self adjusts anything more than JUST the main VE table.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That's not the OP's plan, at least not how I read it, since he mentions keeping his current intake manifold, which will be port injection.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

That's the only correct thing you said.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I currently negotiating an employment offer with the R&D division of a manufacturer. It would be quite a change from what I've been doing for the past 20 years (Network Security company) but I think it would be a great opportunity even if the role is technically not at the same level (R&D Manager). I was Director of R&D for the better part of the last decade before being promoted to acting CTO in 2014. (I'm a software engineer, although I spend most of the time managing now not writing code).

If you google my real name, you'll find a lot of my code inserted into various sections of the Linux kernel, packet steering, among other open source products that we've contributed back to the community over the years.

But anyway, this opportunity has given me a little more inside knowledge from the R&D perspective than the typical end user, or even worse, factory-efi tuner on this forum. I hope that we can come to an agreement regarding compensation and benefits because I'd love to be able to contribute to this evolving technology.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It shouldn't take anyone more than two weeks, let alone two years, to dial in drive-ability. If it does take someone that long, then perhaps they do need a tuner to do it for them. There is only one stoichiometric target for the gas being used in three different positions; idle, part throttle and wide open throttle. The difference in systems is resolution and sensor range. All three fuel areas can be "self learned" by almost any system out there today, the only areas in which tuners spend the bulk of their time on is with spark advance and acceleration enrichment, just like anyone would with a carburetor. Not quite sure why you would imply that it would take anyone two years to dial in drive-ability, because so long as your idle air is reasonable, your fuel is being burned properly in all three areas, you have no vacuum leaks, spark wires aren't arcing, timing curve is set properly with no detonation, then I don't see how much more time needs to be spent on drive-ability other than brakes, tires and shocks...

I'm scratching my head with this statement. Self Learn, or Self Tune is based on the concept of changing a predetermined bin file mechanically for the range in which the fuel table is based, for example a different sized fuel injector would need to be set, then allowed for the system to tune the bin file around that change with the duty cycle average being within limits which is why it would need to be told what size ahead of time, not to mention saving that data. It has nothing to do with saved fuel trims that are being adjusted then ultimately discarded by the ECM during everyday driving which is inevitably reset back to factory parameters when the key is turned off. However I would agree, it is nothing ground breaking, but then again we're not discussing Ion-Sense tuning, which is.

- Rob

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hey Rob,

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving!

Ion-sensing knock? Thats how the auto learn stuff retards spark tables. You configure your max target advance and let it dial it back. Kinda dangerous, but it works.

When you have multiple coils on a sequential eri, you can.measure spark energy and determine combustion efficiency at specific events/degrees.

Technology is always getting better. Renews my interest in the hobby.

-- Joe

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I told the OP what he needs to know. He has an expectation that he can buy a "self tuning" Holley fuel injection system and it will tune itself and he won't have to do any tuning or learn tuning. That is a false expectation.

Meanwhile you guys are off in the weeds talking about some such stuff that is meaningless to the OP.

ULTM8Z

Sorry... I haven't read the entire thread, but what other mods do you have besides the manifold?

If that's it, I'd be surprised if any tuning was needed whatsoever. Absolutely not trying to be sarcastic... just concerned that there may be something else going on that a change to this other ECM may not cure (and then it'll all be for nothing).

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So I spent some time reading about the Avenger that he's looking at, as well as some feedback on the forums.

You bolt it up, wiring it up. Answer a few questions on the handheld controller, and start driving.

Seems like it's what the OP wants.

Why is it that every time someone brings up something on this forum that includes aftermarket EFI you guys get bent out of shape?

There is probably thousands of Avenger, Sniper, and FI-tech installs all over other forums with happy owners. Yet any time someone mentions a system like that here it's implied that it's a gimmick.


-- Joe

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I have a Holley HP on a cammed 383. It self tuned great. No problems. That's not to say that there weren't things I chose to tweak over the weeks and months following startup. ...and that's also not to say a pro couldn't wring out some added power and mpg. -but the self tuning over the first few weeks exceeded every expectation. I was pretty impressed.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Right, mild cams are very forgiving and easy to tune in the first place. Larger cams will take more effort and time with drivability. OP can expect an easier time of it if the cam is mild (which is often the case with TPI).

1984maroz28

I am a Holley Dealer and Certified installer. Do you already have the Avenger system? if so, how old is it? If you haven't purchased it yet, I might suggest this HP kit:
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-601
This is basically a plug and Play for the SBC TPI. Then you have VSS inputs, configurability and better control All of the Holley systems use the same software. If you were to swap out the distributor to a dual trigger or add a crank trigger, then you could take advantage of the LS individual coils as well as better fuel control. Then nice thing about the Holley systems is that they plugs interchange as well as the pin layout is located in the tune, so change the ecu, reload the file, and you are up and running.
The biggest thing about any self learning system is that the ecu can only make adjustments for conditions that it sees multiple times. In the first few hours of driving, the ecu sees the majority of the learning. What isn't magically learned/optimized are the conditions that are only seen rarely. These are the conditions that people think that these systems are junk. If you only hit 27% throttle and 40kpa load once per day, it will take weeks to get that part of the ve table dialed in, let alone the acceleration enrichment areas that get touched once per month (as an example). When I would tune these systems on the dyno, I could control these conditions and repeat them to help learning, plus I was making my own adjustments based on datalogging. What I always recommend to people with these is to keep a log book, or voice recorder handy so that if a hiccup occurs, you can identify it so you can replicate if over and over so the system has time to learn it.
PM me with any direct questions

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

i couldn't agree with this more. most of my hiccups were when i first left a light and after i approached the throttle in a few ways everything got smoother and more "factory like".

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Indeed. I'm not looking to wring every last ounce out of it. As stated in the original post, I'm reasonably confident that the rest of the "systems" are good. I've also been told that idle/off idle is the trickiest to tune. If it gets rid of the minor problems I mentioned and does nothing else, I'll be tickled pink. And, I think I did enough research to understand I may have to adjust the target A/F ratios and a FEW other things to get it "perfect". What I saw/liked were just a few parameters that MAY need to be adjusted after running the system for a few dozen hours. The jillion little tweaks the stock/other aftermarket systems offer are overwhelming to someone like me.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

That's nice to hear.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Pretty tame. Although, I used 1.6 rockers, so it's .493 .502

watajob

iTrader: (29)

I pieced the system together, (on the cheap), over the course of a year or so about 3-4 years ago so it's probably "old" stuff but for what I'm looking for, I anticipate it'll be just fine. Also, thanks for your offer.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Again, music to my ears.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

So, I appreciate all this high falutin' learnin'. However, my main question has yet to be answered: Where do I stop ripping out wires? And, what am I sacrificing as a consequence? Are there any parts/etc. I'll definitely need to have on hand to keep things moving w/o a 5 day delay ordering stuff/waiting on the UPS man? I realize every situation is different but there are probably at least a few absolutes in this process. TIA

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

Pocket has a great write-up on what you can dump and what to keep in the harness. Let me find it again and I'll edit this post with a link to his.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...p-3rd-gen.html

It gave me what I needed to know when I installed the Holley Terminator EFI system on mine.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

I searched here and elsewhere for hours for something like this. Thank you very much!