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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
Started a full drive-train re-build on my 88 GTA in September, going from the stock TPI/Auto to an LSA/TR6060 combo - Had a few things to take care of before ripping the motor out, such as installing the Detroit Speed weld in torque box / side jacking rails, hawks 8.8 rear end, and torque arm relocation kit. I also did a cam and springs on the LSA (why not do it while it was out) I eventually ended up getting the TPI out right before Thanksgiving and after cleaning, prepping and painting the entire underside (and waiting a while for powder coat) I was finally able to get the LSA into its new home this past weekend. I just wanted to post this here because I have poured through tons of posts on this forum for tips and resources - Thing is coming along great so far and this weekend was definitely a milestone for me. If anyone wants to see more pics, I can post 'em up But so far I want to say, all the answers for my questions have been located either on a sticky thread, or in the search section. So I owe a thank you to the guys that have done it before me
I would encourage you to make a thread to help people sort through an LSA swap. Nice & tidy build threads are rare and are a gold mine when people find them.
My thread has gotten way too long to find things. I put hyperlinks in post #1 so things can be found easily.
Did you get that LSA as a pluck or did you buy it new from GM, etc...
I am on the fence with regards to a LS3 (480HP variant) with the possibility to put a Magneson on it down the road, or just go LSA.
Just looking to pick your mind as to what made you go this particular route. I know all our cars are used for different things. I plan to commute 30 miles to work every day in mine, but also want to take it to shows. What are your final plans?
Few tips from mine:
Swap the ZL1 lid for a CTS-V version and it will all fit under the stock firebird hood without cutting
What mounts did you go with? Have you checked clearance on the wiper motor yet? I had to move my engine forward 1" to clear. Required a lot of custom stuff
Have you though about the intercooler system yet? I had a lot of trouble finding one that fit the chassis and looked like it belonged there. Custom IC res tank in place of the DS battery tray, type 100 HX (actually a mini radiator) up front with a bosch pump mounted to the impact bar behind the bumper
Did you get that LSA as a pluck or did you buy it new from GM, etc...
I am on the fence with regards to a LS3 (480HP variant) with the possibility to put a Magneson on it down the road, or just go LSA.
Just looking to pick your mind as to what made you go this particular route. I know all our cars are used for different things. I plan to commute 30 miles to work every day in mine, but also want to take it to shows. What are your final plans?
I wanted a NA setup, but I found this take-out with LOW miles (14K) with the Trans for a deal I couldn't pass up. I figured since it came stock in the camaro it was reliable for a daily + it has more than enough power. I really want to just drive it, but I will also be doing road racing track days with it.
Swap the ZL1 lid for a CTS-V version and it will all fit under the stock firebird hood without cutting
What mounts did you go with? Have you checked clearance on the wiper motor yet? I had to move my engine forward 1" to clear. Required a lot of custom stuff
Have you though about the intercooler system yet? I had a lot of trouble finding one that fit the chassis and looked like it belonged there. Custom IC res tank in place of the DS battery tray, type 100 HX (actually a mini radiator) up front with a bosch pump mounted to the impact bar behind the bumper
I am already on the lookout for a CTS-V lid - Sucks because I like the way this one looks so much better. And it seems as though the Camaro lid is readily available, and I've only seen one CTS-V lid for sale, and it was more than the ZL1 was going for. Oh well. I have not checked clearance on the wiper motor, or anything else for that matter. I was looking at AFCO for an Intercooler that I could hide somewhere in front of the radiator + a bosch pump. Maybe I can get a res tank to mount by the radiator. Do you know what the res. capacity has to be? I figured I had to get a bunch of other stuff sorted out first. I don't plan on ever driving this car in the rain again, so I may just have to scrap the wiper motor if it requires everything being moved.
Luckily my car is still registered. So there is no inspection for any of that working... But if I did that windshield wiper motor is for a corvette, does it bolt right up?
The detroit speed unit bolts right up and comes with its own controller, wiring, switch, etc... Not cheap, but a nice clean way to get rid of that huge OEM motor.
Here in MA, you need to pass safety every year so they check for wipers, lights, horn, seatbelts, blinkers and license plate lights, stuff like that.
I want to do this!!! My next build will not be an N/A motor... This looks like its going to be a great build! Looking forward to following it. Make sure you take lots of pics and guide the rest of us when its our turn
I wanted a NA setup, but I found this take-out with LOW miles (14K) with the Trans for a deal I couldn't pass up. I figured since it came stock in the camaro it was reliable for a daily + it has more than enough power. I really want to just drive it, but I will also be doing road racing track days with it.
I am already on the lookout for a CTS-V lid - Sucks because I like the way this one looks so much better. And it seems as though the Camaro lid is readily available, and I've only seen one CTS-V lid for sale, and it was more than the ZL1 was going for. Oh well. I have not checked clearance on the wiper motor, or anything else for that matter. I was looking at AFCO for an Intercooler that I could hide somewhere in front of the radiator + a bosch pump. Maybe I can get a res tank to mount by the radiator. Do you know what the res. capacity has to be? I figured I had to get a bunch of other stuff sorted out first. I don't plan on ever driving this car in the rain again, so I may just have to scrap the wiper motor if it requires everything being moved.
Shame because people were giving V lids away a few years ago. I went through about two dozen building kits. I should have hoarded all the cheap ZL1 lids too before they doubled in price
Do you still have the LSA pan on there? If so, hows clearance around the crossmember?
Figured I'd post an update, and also get everyone up to speed on mods already done to the car.
The day I purchased - Feb 2017. A clean, rust free garaged California built 88 Trans AM GTA with 140K miles. Interior is perfect , no cracks, no tears, nothing. EVERYTHING works. Everything is perfect on this car. I scored one of the best deals of my life and picked this thing up for only 6500.
If you want to check out my Imugr album, I will be updating this as I go, and it may be easier to follow. https://imgur.com/a/o7HDE
Previous installs:
Detroit Speed Speed Kit 2 kits for front and rear with Koni struts up front, and JRI single adjustable shocks in the rear
Fairly easy, everything was smooth except putting in the front frame brace (Where the new sway bar mounts) This took me about 7 hours to massage in, as it was about 1/4" too wide. Once it was in, I'm pretty sure it was in forever. Took the weight of the car to get it in. Also DSE sent me the wrong nuts twice for the rear sway bar mounts, which roasted the bolts (fine VS coarse). I would have got this kit installed in a weekend, but the bolts screwed me. Also, the shock bolts were really short! The car handles great with this kit installed. Love it.
Detroit Speed jacking rails / weld in frame brace. Seemed easy. Read the instructions, watch the video. Just takes a lot of time to clean up the metal and weld. Then a lot of the places are hard to get to. Took a lot longer than I expected. About 2 weekend. Drivers side takes twice as long. I also lit the interior my car on fire, burned out my headliner and almost burned down my whole garage. Luckily my fire extinguisher was right there. No dash damage, so I was hyped on that. Lesson learned.
Hawks sinister Torque arm relocation - I think you need the DSE rails to make this work, not sure where I would have welded the tabs otherwise. I was told I need this because the TR6060 does not have a spot for the regular torque arm. This thing is beefy, but I don't like how low it hangs. With the exhaust loop down, it's BY FAR the lowest spot on the car by a few inches. This makes me wish I got the DSE quadralink setup. I would have been able to eliminate this, which is also now taking up precious exhaust space.
Hawks 8.8 Rear End - I purchased the Hawks rear end with all the bells and whistles at the same time as the DSE frame rails. Told hawks that I have the DSE coil over kit, they said everything would bolt right on. IT DOES NOT. The Hawks shock brackets are way wider than stock, and they also don't curve. The DSE bolt on mounts will not work. Also, even if they did fit, good luck drilling them with the sway bar mounts welded in place. When I called Hawks I left their install guy a msg to see what the best route to take to mount coil overs and they never got back to me, so I cut the DSE mount open and ground down my freshly powdered rear end to weld the shock tabs on. Works perfect. Just sanded and painted the tabs. Doesn't look half bad.
Work to the LSA: I installed a Lingenfelter GT14 Supercharger cam and dual rate valve springs. I also upgraded to the non-tensioner style came chain setup. I then installed a holley LS pan, and oil baffle as I plan to track this car.
LSA Install:
Pulling the motor was a mess and a chore, but pulling it out of the bottom was the way to do it.
Waiting for parts I did a "I've gotten this far, may as well" and stripped and painted the firewall.
I used Summit Chassis black, which looks really glossy in this, but turns to a nice and even fairly durable semi-gloss.
Waiting on parts again I decided to prep and paint the whole underside. It was awesome to see how clean this car actually was. No rust. No chips. It looked brand new (gray) I then prepped and painted it.
Clearance so far was an issue for the #8 coil. I purchased BRP coil brackets to move the coil up for an easy fix - THEY DO NOT WORK WITH AN LSA. I had to sand a little bit of the AC box and was able to get it to clear. However, accessing it later or having to take it off will be a bitch.
I also purchased with my LS swap motor mounts the TR6060 mount from Muscle Rods... Which oddly enough didn't come with a revision for sensor - I had to cut a section out for it.
(post cut)
Last edited by Justin Hertel; 02-08-2018 at 01:38 PM.
Then upon putting the crossmember in for the t-56/tr-6060 it hits so bad
(post notch 1)
Once I notched the first part, then the rest tube hit the rest of the transmission, which required more notching.
But everything clears now. I may come back and make a custom Crossmember later. This Crossmember has no bumps, or bends for exhaust either - An issue I'm becoming increasingly concerned with given there is barely any room for exhaust under this car as it is.
One of the more fun installs so far, the ASD handbrake. I was able to bend up some 1/8 steel and it hugged the factory brace pretty well. I was pumped with how it came out.
The goal here was to make it fit in the factory spot. I originally though the handle was ridiculous and was going to have one custom fabbed to sit lower and be less conspicuous, but I actually think this looks kind of trick. Anyhow, that will be last if I want to change it.
I found by flipping the master upside down I could save a bit of room, and run the lines way cleaner. This was my first time doing stainless hardlines and was honestly the most fun I've had so far with the build.
I chose to run the lines from the backseat because this car will get a cage and nobody will be in the back. I wanted them accessible and away from the driveshaft. The run up and under the console with no clearance issues.
And run perfectly into the car with 90 degree bulkheads. I love this. I have also been doing all my own bends and flares for the brake lines. Like I said, this have been my favorite part of the build!
After getting a fourth gen tank and not really liking it, I bought a behind bars race car fuel cell and a 1000HP Fuel Lab in tank pump. This unit is pretty trick, but was also sold as a direct bolt in (use your stock straps, etc.) It was not, and sits kind of funny in the car. The stock tank is very flat on top, and this has a huge triangle in it. Not sure why they did this. Anyways, I made more hard lines and love how they turned out so far. I may just run them off the front of the tank as I will not have any issues with the rear end or shocks that way. The current spot on the side puts them right above the rear end, which probably wont be an issue, but I think it may just be cleaner to go off the front.
So like I said, the stock gas tank straps were rounded to fit the old rounder stock tank - The Cell is very boxy, so the straps didn't even come close to fitting. I just made new brackets out of the same 2" 1/8" steel I made my handbrake mount out of. They turned out pretty well, and are solid! Tank is currently mounted, and I am beginning to run hard lines for the fuel.
More pics and updates to follow! I have been able to crank on this thing steady on the weekends, putting in 12+ hour days on Sat and Sun (my only free days) so things are progressing quickly, but things always take longer than expected.
I had that Hawks Sinister torque arm too. It kept slamming into the road. I cut it out and had a custom torque are made at a local speed shop and have never had ground clearance problems since.
This is a nice build. I dont know if this would help or not but it seems like a cheaper solution for a smaller wiper motor. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...wap-now-i.html. Looks like it would give some extra clearance.
What did you do or plan to do for the driveshaft? A three bolt adapter flange and slip driveshaft? How about the trans cooler? I'm putting a 2017 Gen V LT1 and TR6060 in a 88 Camaro with what looks like the same shifter. Is that a Hawks unit?
Trans cooler I haven't quite picked out quite yet, because I have plenty to do getting my fuel, brake and intercooler lines run. I will have a better idea of what I want to run once I finish all that and see where my headers sit.
And yes, that shifter I got from Hawks, the MGW for the TR6060 A very nice unit that fit perfectly and will also fit right where it should in the manual console plate.
This is a nice build. I dont know if this would help or not but it seems like a cheaper solution for a smaller wiper motor. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...wap-now-i.html. Looks like it would give some extra clearance.
Definitely appreciate the find on that one! I have pretty much written off a wiper motor for now, but when I get to it at the very end, this seems like the route to go!
Trans cooler I haven't quite picked out quite yet, because I have plenty to do getting my fuel, brake and intercooler lines run. I will have a better idea of what I want to run once I finish all that and see where my headers sit.
And yes, that shifter I got from Hawks, the MGW for the TR6060 A very nice unit that fit perfectly and will also fit right where it should in the manual console plate.
I found out today that the shifter sits too far forward by about an inch and hits the shifter plate. Is your console a fourth gen? I may have to modify the plate and use a big boot.
I found out today that the shifter sits too far forward by about an inch and hits the shifter plate. Is your console a fourth gen? I may have to modify the plate and use a big boot.
3rd Gen Console. It hits with the auto console plate and I though it too was too far forward. I even turned the top block around to set it further back and just figured it was the price to pay for custom. Then I noticed the manual plate has only about 1" of space between the cig. lighter and the shifter opening, whereas the auto has what looks to be about 3" so even though I don't have the manual plate *yet* it should fit with the correct manual console insert.
What are your plans for a clutch master cylinder and lines? My slave is located on the right side of the trans so I have to use a longer line. Do you know what fitting fits into the slave?
What are your plans for a clutch master cylinder and lines? My slave is located on the right side of the trans so I have to use a longer line. Do you know what fitting fits into the slave?
I got the Hawks rip of the TICK clutch master, my slave is on the driver side, so no real issue. I absolutely need the remote bleeder as the bleeder on the TR6060 almost impossible to access tucked up in there now, so I will be dropping everything down this weekend to clean up my trans tunnel cuts, install headers and the Hinsen remote bleeder line.
Do you have any pics of the trans tunnel cuts? Mine is tight and I am wondering if I need to make any cuts.
I don't have the greatest pic (all pics were of the handbrake) I had to make a pretty massive cut compared to what I've seen for the t56, and I did so embarrassingly shitty. I had to cut the floor pan for not only the shifter, but all the way up to where the top plate is, and I even have to go in and cut a little more towards the front of the plate (There is a nub towards the engine, on the end of the cover is currently still hitting the floor)
Rear end mock up with fuel / brake lines to ensure everything clears. It does, but exhaust is going to be tricky.
Hard line routing. I kept unions in the system to keep it serviceable, and it will switch to braided lines via a bulkhead about midway past the trans. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to pull out a hard line setup that is the length of the car. This will also allow me to head shield the lines in sections once I see how close exhaust is going to set (and it's gonna be close)
Speaking of exhaust... Kooks 1 7/8" mid lengths fit well. Didn't even have to pull the motor, or rock it. Pulled the dipstick tube and they dropped right in. Love how this thing is coming together now.
You can see the fuel lines on the right. This was going to be where I was going to run a bulkhead, but I may have to put it back a little further due the exhaust position. Glad I dropped the headers in before finishing the fuel lines.
After all that, I even got to play pretend and mock up the tires I plan on using. Inching towards completion on a lot of fronts. I have had to be pretty flexible, running out of or waiting for parts in one area and just moving to another instead of hitting a dead end and waiting has allowed me to make continuous and steady progress.
I've got the Holley swap crossmember. It actually fits pretty good but the top of the trans hits. There was no crossmember notching needed. I am looking for a lower profile trans mount to get some more room. I haven't cut the floor yet, just used a jack to push it up on the floor to get some clearance. I'm becoming an expert installing and removing the engine. I've done it at least 6 times now.
Another problem seems to be the torque arm. It is real close to the trans output flange. How are you dealing with the torque arm?
I just cannot believe the amount of work you are doing! Excellent work!
I've got the Holley swap crossmember. It actually fits pretty good but the top of the trans hits. There was no crossmember notching needed. I am looking for a lower profile trans mount to get some more room. I haven't cut the floor yet, just used a jack to push it up on the floor to get some clearance. I'm becoming an expert installing and removing the engine. I've done it at least 6 times now.
Another problem seems to be the torque arm. It is real close to the trans output flange. How are you dealing with the torque arm?
I just cannot believe the amount of work you are doing! Excellent work!
I have the Hawks Sinister torque arm. I kind of let Hawks talk me into it, don't get it. It's going to be a problem down the road as Quick Tip had mentioned (he ended up having a custom one built). The Sinister hangs REALLY low and presents all sorts of clearance issues, not to mention lining it up to weld it in by myself was tedious... But since it is in I'm just going to leave it for now. As I get further along on the project I want to try the Hooker/Black Heart cross member, as it has a torque arm mount built into it. A lot of vendors when I ask for suggestions and tell them what I am building (LSA/TR6060 swap 3rd Gen) just say "I have no idea, we've never done that / nobody does those - you're on your own" so there has been a lot of trial and error, and wasted money.
I have the Hawks Sinister torque arm. I kind of let Hawks talk me into it, don't get it. It's going to be a problem down the road as Quick Tip had mentioned (he ended up having a custom one built). The Sinister hangs REALLY low and presents all sorts of clearance issues, not to mention lining it up to weld it in by myself was tedious... But since it is in I'm just going to leave it for now. As I get further along on the project I want to try the Hooker/Black Heart cross member, as it has a torque arm mount built into it. A lot of vendors when I ask for suggestions and tell them what I am building (LSA/TR6060 swap 3rd Gen) just say "I have no idea, we've never done that / nobody does those - you're on your own" so there has been a lot of trial and error, and wasted money.
That's the one I have. It looks like the torque arm bracket will be real close to the output flange. Not sure how I will attach it. The hooker cross member has cutouts for exhaust pipes so they don't hang down. They suggest using their motor mounts, too. I used Dirty Dingo adjustables.
That's the one I have. It looks like the torque arm bracket will be real close to the output flange. Not sure how I will attach it. The hooker cross member has cutouts for exhaust pipes so they don't hang down. They suggest using their motor mounts, too. I used Dirty Dingo adjustables.
Engine and trans is out again. I am waiting on some parts before I test fit again. I just got this trans mount that is 1/2" shorter that should give a little more clearance. As soon as I get my new load leveler, I will test fit again. I wore out the Harbor Freight leveler.
I put the engine back in this morning to see how the new trans mount fits. All looks good. This crossmember has humps for dual exhaust. I read one of your previous posts where you were concerned about that. The mount I used, Energy Suspension # 31158G is 1/2" shorter than the one I was using. It is about 1 3/8" tall. Looks like I will need to elongate a few holes, though. I am wondering if I need to mount the torque arm directly to the crossmember without the bushing since its soo close to the output flange.
Mount up the torque arm, maybe it will just barely clear?
Edit: NVM, looks like it's about 1/2" too thick. Will more than likely hit the flange.
I should have gotten the damn Quadralink!!!
I haven't done anything for awhile due to the crappy weather. I need to clean and paint underneath but too cold outside. I did trim down the torque arm bushing but I haven't revised the bracket yet.
A couple of questions. What are you using for a clutch master cylinder? How are you going to run your slave remote bleed line?
I haven't done anything for awhile due to the crappy weather. I need to clean and paint underneath but too cold outside. I did trim down the torque arm bushing but I haven't revised the bracket yet.
A couple of questions. What are you using for a clutch master cylinder? How are you going to run your slave remote bleed line?
Hawks rip of the Tick master. Remote bleed is by Hinson is a 4 foot braided line. Bolted right in. Install it before putting everything in - You will not be able to reach it once the trans is in place, nor will you be able to drop it far enough by unbolting the crossmember.
Hawks rip of the Tick master. Remote bleed is by Hinson is a 4 foot braided line. Bolted right in. Install it before putting everything in - You will not be able to reach it once the trans is in place, nor will you be able to drop it far enough by unbolting the crossmember.
I am going to try the McLeod 139305 master cylinder. Amazon had it on sale for $223. Do you have any pics on how you mounted your remote bleeder?
HAHA you really did cut that bushing down! I dig it though, looks like it's going to work. I ordered on a whim last night the Hooker/Black Heart trans cross member to see if I like it better (sorry QwkTrip, I needed it next day from summit more than I needed the discount) so I will play with how that sits this weekend.
After clearancing things in the rear I have come to terms with the fact that I will not be able to run exhaust all the way out the back with a sufficient sized exhaust tube(s) The addition of the fuel cell with the added bulk of the Hawks 8.8 has things uncomfortably tight as it is and where I decided to run the hard lines for the fuel would have been the only place to squeeze a single 3.5" pipe, which again I don't think would have been enough. I am going to do an ode to the NASCAR side exhaust and put a massive oval out the pass. side (to annoy me less) because there is a ton of room over there. If down the road I hate it, I will change it.
The Hawks block (with Tilton) MC is badass so far. I don't have any pics, but the line plugs right in, and the Hinson line just replaces the entire bleeder. Plug and play. You can mount the remote anywhere, or coil it up and zip tie it under the trans if you want. It's pretty simple (and flexible) I imagine it will be the least of my worries moving forward.
Other than that I have been making steady progress. Fuel system is done. Intercooler is mounted and plumbed with the pump and I had a really cool custom IC tank made. I will get photos when everything is back in the engine bay.
Having said that, since I had to drop the engine to get that bleeder in, I decided I might as well wheel it out to "wire" everything (thank you Pocket for the harness, all I really have to do is plug things in) and install the front runner / pulley setup. It is a concept one, and requires no notching of the K-Member and clears everything, however you do have to buy your own blower pulley adapter from Lingenfelter, which requires the snout of the super charger to be machined - I was kind of shocked, as its not mentioned in the directions, or even until you buy the pulley from LF and read the notice on the item. You think for a $3,000+ Pulley setup they could include the $55 adapter, or figure out their own solution. but oh well.
Last edited by Justin Hertel; 03-21-2018 at 09:44 PM.
01-15-2018, 09:01 PM
But so far I want to say, all the answers for my questions have been located either on a sticky thread, or in the search section. So I owe a thank you to the guys that have done it before me 
but oh well.
