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Building a 355 for my Caprice 1993. Had gotten a free block from a 1995 HD pickup. I’ve gotten it machined already 4.030 bore. He said he touched up the deck. I planned to reuse rods-don’t know if that’s bad thing. The crank I knife edged- considering getting a scat crank since I’ll need a balance job anyway. The Pistons I have are H597DCP30. What do I need to get this bottom end together
You'll have excess squish/quench distance unless you deck the block some more. Those pistons are already .010 short, and even at full height you'd need to deck the block. When it was me, I had .025 cut off the decks and then used a .039 gasket. If I were doing this again I'd go with a thinner gasket (.028-ish) and cut a little less off of the block. You're looking for .035--.040 quench distance. NOT MORE than .045.
Re-using the rods is a fine idea. Despite the popularity of ARP rod bolts, I don't expect you're going to make enough power or spin enough RPM to really justify that. I'd have the machine shop CHECK them for roundness, machine them only if needed, and call it a day.
For the record, there's nothing wrong with GM bolts. You don't need ARP fasteners for this build. I put ARP head bolts in my build because I didn't have a complete set of original bolts. Re-used main and rod bolts, oil pan, damper, front-cover bolts, rear main seal adapter bolts, etc.
Did they hone the block with a torque plate? If not, that was an oversight.
Why buy a "new" stock-stroke crank? You get a crank that has a 3.5" stroke, you won't have to cut the decks so much. How much did you carve off the counterweights? Enough that you'll need heavy metal to balance? I'd have the parts you already own balanced, and if the crank you whittled turns out to be a problem, have the machine shop sell you another OEM core.
Moly-faced rings with widths to suit the piston grooves. ( 2.00mm x 1.50mm x 4.00mm) Cam bearings rod bearings, and main bearings. A block-plug kit that has the larger oil galley plugs, which you will have to drill .030 hole in to vent just like OEM. (At least, the blocks I've seen recently needed the larger plugs by the camshaft in front, and venting the two lifter-galley plugs in front is always a good idea.) I always install a block heater, but maybe you don't need that where you live.
Last short-block I built I re-used the oil pump after sanding the main body to reduce gear-to-end plate clearance. I also re-used the timing set, the one I had was in beautiful condition and put the camshaft in the right position--checked with dial indicator and degree wheel. If your parts are missing, you'll need all that. My oil pump has the 3/4" pickup tube, if yours doesn't, you'd likely want to upgrade to a pump that accepts the 3/4" pickup tube 5/8" pickup tubes work...but why use one now that the 3/4" tube is readily available.
I bought two aftermarket flexplates. Both were WAY off in terms of balance. If you have the rest of the engine balanced, make sure they check the flexplate, and GET THE BALANCE SPEC's FOR THE FLEXPLATE so you can replace it later if need be.
Your timing cover/timing pointer will determine what torsional damper you need. Damper diameters differ, the angle the timing indicator groove is machined differs, so the damper and the timing pointer need to be a matched set AND they need to allow timing the engine with whatever accessories you plan to bolt to the front of the engine. The damper hub will have a groove worn into it by the front seal. Fel-Pro, Timken, and others sell a sheetmetal sleeve that covers the groove. Under $10.
Do you have the correct knock sensor? I put a brass draincock in the other water jacket drain hole. I'm not fond of the steel plugs that are typically used.
Got proper engine mount brackets? Good engine mounts? I tried using Polyurethane engine mount cushions, but they didn't fit the clamshell properly. Aftermarket engine mount clamshells are stamped from THIN THIN THIN sheet metal. I put the originals back in, and I wasn't happy about it.
I like the one-piece oil pan gasket. I get mine in the Fel-Pro bottom-end kit: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-cs8510
but depending on your build, you might want a complete gasket kit with head gasket, valve stem seals, valve cover gaskets, intake gaskets, etc.
What oil filter adapter are you using? Be sure to use the correct adapter gasket(s)
Stock Caprice oil pan, with two holes on the side--a drain plug hole, and an oil-level sensor hole? You might need the plug for the oil level sensor hole if there's no oil level sensor. I don't have the part number handy. Gonna have to research that. The Caprice and the truck probably use the same pan except for the second hole, along with the same windage tray.
I took the OEM roller-lifters apart one at a time for cleaning and inspection. DO NOT mix-up the parts. The plunger and the lifter body are select-fit and must be kept together. The lifters are essentially little oil filters, they were full of sludgy dreck. Does your pickup engine have roller lifters? Many (most? all?) of the trucks were flat-tappet until '96. GM sold a kit that included the spider, the lifter alignment dogbones, the spider bolts, and the lifters. Any machine shop can sell you used pieces if you don't already have 'em. You might have to tap the holes for the spider bolts.
'Bout all that leaves is camshaft. There's a whole world of possibilities. Depending on your application, you may or may not need a fuel pump lobe (does the block have a machined fuel pump pad?) and you'll want a melonized distributor gear. All the small-diameter HEIs are melonized, the large-cap HEIs will need a specific melonized gear.
As far as the top end goes, you'll want to select a head gasket that is compatible with your cylinder heads. If you're using a TBI intake manifold, the intake gaskets are "special" because the rear water passage is blocked except for a steam-hole on each side. If you're using a non-TBI intake, use intake gaskets with the full-flow hole at the rear or you'll have a weak heater.
If you're using non-stock heads, use either the self-aligning rocker arms OR pushrod guideplates, NOT BOTH. If you use pushrod guideplates, you'll need hardened pushrods.
Make sure the valve guides/valve seals have clearance for the camshaft lift you select.
I know that some TBI cars use a special distributor. Something about the diameter of the distributor body where it goes through the intake manifold. I don't have details. Be aware that there are some differences in intake manifolds and distributor bodies.
The machinist did torque hone, new freezeplugs, cam bearings, light polished crank journals, sized the rods, pressed out old truck dish piston, align honed main caps, gave a quick paint job too.
the guy used to race tbi boats or something-I remember the guy’s eyes lighting up saying to use Vortec heads.
The part he recommended for pistons were H631cp30- Will .028 GM gasket work? so I’ll send the other pistons back to summit. He didn’t think I needed decked just touched up-the motor didn’t even have 100k and only .001 of wear. I got for free since my buddy only needed the transmission for his P/U truck.
My crank I ground a v at each leading edge- I’ll try to roll with it to be balanced.Scat makes a stock crank for about same price or less than OE with leading edge optimized for oil control. My pan has oil level and oil drain plug stock and engine has a flat windage screen but I’d like something better and a crank scraper.
The machinist did torque hone, new freezeplugs, cam bearings, light polished crank journals, sized the rods, pressed out old truck dish piston, align honed main caps, gave a quick paint job too.
the guy used to race tbi boats or something-I remember the guy’s eyes lighting up saying to use Vortec heads.
Vortec heads on a TBI application requires a SEVERELY expensive (~$500) intake manifold, PLUS a special high-temperature exhaust hose from the special exhaust manifold to the intake manifold to keep the EGR functional. Or you fabricate an exhaust passage into a set of headers, or whatever you're using on the driver's side of the engine. Or you delete the EGR, and possibly face the Emissions Police. Any Vortec intake manifold will need fabrication to the throttle cable/cruise control cable/transmission throttle valve cable bracket to get it to fit. Depending on the Vortec manifold, you'll be fabricating some way to connect the heater hose, the bracket that holds the MAP sensor and EGR solenoid, and the braces for A/C and/or alternator (depending on what your vehicle requires, and how the Vortec manifold is designed.)
I have some Vortec heads, which I considered using. I couldn't get myself to buy a five hundred dollar intake manifold. I also considered trying the Summit TBI aluminum cylinder heads... https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-162108
...which would allow the stock intake manifold, and essentially zero fabrication.
In the end, I bolted-on a pair of old aluminum heads I had lying around. I'm using a ZZ4-style intake manifold and making a bunch of modifications to get the EGR, heater, and original brackets to work.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
The part he recommended for pistons were H631cp30- Will .028 GM gasket work? so I’ll send the other pistons back to summit. He didn’t think I needed decked
What is the current piston-to-deck clearance? The H631cp30 pistons are .010 taller than the pistons you have--which is good--but they use a prehistoric ring package. Nobody can say what the quench distance is until you do some measuring, but I expect it's huge. Makes for "lazy" combustion, can promote detonation, and may require excess ignition advance. If the quench distance is greater than .045, you could be in trouble.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
the motor didn’t even have 100k and only .001 of wear.
Why bother to have it bored? My cylinders had about .0015 taper, I hit them with a dingleberry brush to put some cross-hatch back on them, and shoved standard-size pistons right back in.
Similarly, did the engine NEED align-honing? What size were the bearing bores before the hone? Did the old bearings show alignment problems? Did the rods actually NEED to be re-sized? Did the old rod bearings show uneven wear? Were the big-ends out-of-size or out-of-round? I didn't see the parts, so I don't know--but--I get the feeling the machine shop did a bunch of un-needed work but failed to properly address the block decks so that you'll end up with proper squish/quench. Maybe I'm wrong.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
My crank I ground a v at each leading edge- I’ll try to roll with it to be balanced.Scat makes a stock crank for about same price or less than OE with leading edge optimized for oil control.
I'd rather have the GM crankshaft than a cheap Chinese import. If the crank has had so much material ground off of it that it's hard to balance, I'd just get another GM crank, used but in good condition.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
My pan has oil level and oil drain plug stock and engine has a flat windage screen but I’d like something better and a crank scraper.
Are you going to spin this engine high enough to need more windage control than GM engineers feel is adequate?
You're aware that crank scrapers also reduce oil to the cylinder walls and wrist pins...right? At a million RPM, that's OK, they're flooded. At lower RPM, you sure you want to take away their lubrication?
Hey thanks for the input guys, been on 60hr weeks since thanksgiving and can’t have phone at work. Sorry for delays in response.
My motor is not a high Rev- in need of low and mid power. The car weighs 4500lbs. I do not “have to have” EGR but if I can make it work that won’t be an issue either way. I’m aware of the intake issue since I can’t go the adapter route for carb intake due to clearance to the hood without getting a cowl hood.
The main goal at the moment is to get the short block together. Soon as get my next day off I need to drop bottom off to balance shop
Hey thanks for the input guys, been on 60hr weeks since thanksgiving and can’t have phone at work. Sorry for delays in response.
My motor is not a high Rev- in need of low and mid power. The car weighs 4500lbs. I do not “have to have” EGR but if I can make it work that won’t be an issue either way. I’m aware of the intake issue since I can’t go the adapter route for carb intake due to clearance to the hood without getting a cowl hood.
The main goal at the moment is to get the short block together. Soon as get my next day off I need to drop bottom off to balance shop
Let me throw out my take on this. Vortec heads are a decent set of heads. However for what you are trying to do totally not needed and a huge expense to convert to. Given that your car is a 1993 the distributor to firewall clearance is very tight. The factory B-body TBI distributers used on those whale body cars has a larger base to cover the larger opening in the intake to allow you to service the distributor without moving the engine. It is my understanding a standard sized distributor cannot be removed without moving the engine.
That being said TBI heads are going to have the best low-midrange grunt up to 4,500 rpm of ANY head you can put on a small block engine.
The stock 9C1 engine I have been into had the hotter L98 cam and flat top pistons on it but used the TBI 305 exhaust manifolds rather than the larger outlet TPI manifolds.
I would have a hard time not keeping the swirl ports if they check out good, get them surfaced and a valve job, replace not ream the guides only if they are necessary. Then have the machine shop clean and bore the stock intake manifold openings to 2", pickup a 50mm bored TBI unit. I would pickup a used set of LT1 manifolds and get a good 2.25" dual exhaust built like a LT1 B-car. A H or X pipe would help equalize the exhaust backpressure and help make more mid-range torque. The LT1 B-car transmission crossmember bolted right into the earlier Cadillac Fleetwood I once played around with. If you are able to tune the ECM I would suggest a cam change from the L98 cam. While the L98 cam is a good piece it can certainly be improved on without hurting drivability. I have used this cam in several TBI and Vortec engines with a reprogrammed/recalibrated GM ECM. http://www.competitionproducts.com/E.../#.XBQwp8vQaUk
That being said TBI heads are going to have the best low-midrange grunt up to 4,500 rpm of ANY head you can put on a small block engine.
This surprises me. A lot. By "TBI heads", you're talking about Swirl-Ports, right? Or do you mean something else?
If you'd said "up to 2,500 rpm" I'd be less surprised. 2500 rpm should be enough to get my truck to highway speed--in overdrive.
I have no way to test heads, and it's not like I can change heads and NOT change other stuff. Suffice to say, shiit-canning the swirl-ports in favor of 1990s low-priced aluminum "hot-rod" heads, along with a ZZ4-style intake and OEM Vortec camshaft makes noticeably more power (on the second test-drive after installing the engine--it's only been installed and running for two days so far) than my "crate" B-body TBI engine. Of course, I've essentially changed cam, heads, and manifold not just the heads. All of this on the stock '88 K1500 computer and PROM.
The first proper test-drive of this engine, I felt it was making about the same power as the previous B-body engine. I was actually disappointed. The trans was shifting pretty harsh, too. So I check throttle movement, and the trans TV cable is two notches too short--so I'm only getting about 2/3 or maybe 3/4 throttle travel. I adjust the cable so the throttle will fully open, and now I've got approximately the power I was hoping for.
I'd love to be present at a properly-controlled dyno test of Swirl-Port heads vs. Vortec vs. some known-quantity aftermarket aluminum heads. The downside is that involves three different intake manifold bolt patterns.
This surprises me. A lot. By "TBI heads", you're talking about Swirl-Ports, right? Or do you mean something else?
If you'd said "up to 2,500 rpm" I'd be less surprised. 2500 rpm should be enough to get my truck to highway speed--in overdrive.
I have no way to test heads, and it's not like I can change heads and NOT change other stuff. Suffice to say, shiit-canning the swirl-ports in favor of 1990s low-priced aluminum "hot-rod" heads, along with a ZZ4-style intake and OEM Vortec camshaft makes noticeably more power (on the second test-drive after installing the engine--it's only been installed and running for two days so far) than my "crate" B-body TBI engine. Of course, I've essentially changed cam, heads, and manifold not just the heads. All of this on the stock '88 K1500 computer and PROM.
The first proper test-drive of this engine, I felt it was making about the same power as the previous B-body engine. I was actually disappointed. The trans was shifting pretty harsh, too. So I check throttle movement, and the trans TV cable is two notches too short--so I'm only getting about 2/3 or maybe 3/4 throttle travel. I adjust the cable so the throttle will fully open, and now I've got approximately the power I was hoping for.
I'd love to be present at a properly-controlled dyno test of Swirl-Port heads vs. Vortec vs. some known-quantity aftermarket aluminum heads. The downside is that involves three different intake manifold bolt patterns.
I did a mild cam 350 TBI swirl port TBI head to Vortec swap years ago. The TBI heads beat out the Vortecs until 4,500 rpm and then the Vortecs pulled ahead. By 5,000 rpm the Vortecs were only ahead 15 hp. The Vortecs were able to make power to 5,500 though where the swirl ports were falling off badly. At 5,500 rpm the Vortecs were up about 40 hp. At 2,500 rpm the swirl ports made about 20 ft/lbs more torque.
Dewey 316 did a swirl port 305 head to ported 416 swap years ago running the same cam and intake. His results were similar. He went from about 210 hp to 225 hp with the swirl ports making more power under about 4,500. He was running a cammed L03 with a low rise single plane and headers/exhaust.
I had the ZZ4 head and cam setup on my TBI 350 with its 18cc dished pistons in my G20 years ago. Up to 5,500 rpm it did not run much better than the F-car LT1 cam, 1.6 rocker swirl port head setup I ran prior. I ran the same performer rpm intake and thorley headers with both.
Let me throw out my take on this. Vortec heads are a decent set of heads. However for what you are trying to do totally not needed and a huge expense to convert to. Given that your car is a 1993 the distributor to firewall clearance is very tight. The factory B-body TBI distributers used on those whale body cars has a larger base to cover the larger opening in the intake to allow you to service the distributor without moving the engine. It is my understanding a standard sized distributor cannot be removed without moving the engine.
That being said TBI heads are going to have the best low-midrange grunt up to 4,500 rpm of ANY head you can put on a small block engine.
The stock 9C1 engine I have been into had the hotter L98 cam and flat top pistons on it but used the TBI 305 exhaust manifolds rather than the larger outlet TPI manifolds.
I would have a hard time not keeping the swirl ports if they check out good, get them surfaced and a valve job, replace not ream the guides only if they are necessary. Then have the machine shop clean and bore the stock intake manifold openings to 2", pickup a 50mm bored TBI unit. I would pickup a used set of LT1 manifolds and get a good 2.25" dual exhaust built like a LT1 B-car. A H or X pipe would help equalize the exhaust backpressure and help make more mid-range torque. The LT1 B-car transmission crossmember bolted right into the earlier Cadillac Fleetwood I once played around with. If you are able to tune the ECM I would suggest a cam change from the L98 cam. While the L98 cam is a good piece it can certainly be improved on without hurting drivability. I have used this cam in several TBI and Vortec engines with a reprogrammed/recalibrated GM ECM. http://www.competitionproducts.com/E.../#.XBQwp8vQaUk
My Current B Car is an old L03 city fleet car . I tossed the truck heads and stock intake. I figured if I find a good aftermarket head similar to Vortec to use Edelbrock TBI intake I would but I could go Vortec and gmpp tbi intake as well. I only drive this occasionally at the moment and tear up the highway
Holiday season is over thankfully plus I’m back to my short block. Regarding heads, I have NONE-tossed them old swirl port ones out months ago. so I WILL need new heads. I’m stuck between Vortecs and the aluminum ones from summit. The intake distributor hole has to be machined open for 91-93 b-body- more $. Idk if either route of head will will affect TV and Cruise Control.
I’m planning on ebl for my ecm so I will still egr have either way since I can use lt1 headers or stock lt1 manifold b-car manifolds.
I also checked on impalass and 9c1 site and they just recommend the B-car LT1 cam for TBI. Idk if anyone had opinions on cam selection. I definitely don’t want too much cam but need to order one soon.
I WILL need new heads. I’m stuck between Vortecs and the aluminum ones from summit... ...Idk if either route of head will will affect TV and Cruise Control.
Vortec heads will require mods to the brackets, as the brackets are intended to be bolted to the stud-tops of the intake manifold bolts which are laid-over on the OEM and Summit heads, but straight-up-and-down on the Vortecs. The bolt spacing is different, too.
You use the Summit TBI heads, and the OEM intake manifold, there's zero fabrication needed. Aftermarket intake manifold will need "some" fabrication, but the amount depends on the manifold, and that depends somewhat on the heads it bolts to.
I painted my engine with two partially-used rattle-cans of Black that I had lying around. You cannot make me feel guilty, either.
Vortec heads will require mods to the brackets, as the brackets are intended to be bolted to the stud-tops of the intake manifold bolts which are laid-over on the OEM and Summit heads, but straight-up-and-down on the Vortecs. The bolt spacing is different, too.
I ran a vortec heads on my 89 caprice with a edelbrock performer rpm, which has similar if not identical serpentine/bracket setup as the 91-93 caprices. Only one brace had to be fabricated, cant remember the diameter but i used rod stock, a vice to bend and a torch to hammer the ends flat like the factory bracket. Looked stock. I'll see if I can get some pictures this week.
I ran a vortec heads on my 89 caprice with a edelbrock performer rpm, which has similar if not identical serpentine/bracket setup as the 91-93 caprices. Only one brace had to be fabricated, cant remember the diameter but i used rod stock, a vice to bend and a torch to hammer the ends flat like the factory bracket. Looked stock. I'll see if I can get some pictures this week.
Your answer is based on the accessory brackets at the front of the engine. I was talking about the TV cable and Cruise Cable (and throttle cable) brackets at the rear.
Yeah, the accessory brackets and braces will likely need modification--but that depends on the intake manifold.
My K1500 needs a new brace from the back of the A/C compressor to the intake manifold, but the brace behind the tensioner pulley and the brace on the back of the alternator fit the ZZ4-style manifold just fine.
I modified the stock throttle/tv bracket to work with vortec intake. had to use ARP bolts because the head was smaller for clearance. do NOT use the edelbrock bracket that is avaiable, it is meant for a th350 kickdown cable, not a th700r4 tv cable.
I am sure you are aware but the truck serpentine setup sits a lot higher than the b/f-body setup. i wasnt running a compressor but I also recall a bracket to the intake aswell as one to an exhaust manifold stud.
I ran a vortec heads on my 89 caprice with a edelbrock performer rpm, which has similar if not identical serpentine/bracket setup as the 91-93 caprices. Only one brace had to be fabricated, cant remember the diameter but i used rod stock, a vice to bend and a torch to hammer the ends flat like the factory bracket. Looked stock. I'll see if I can get some pictures this week.
Hey if you had a pic of this could you post or pm me?
Balance rotating assembly, flywheel, added metal, installed pistons to rods: total of $215 out the door. Pistons are clocked and ready to install today or sometime this week depending if my buddy’s shop isn’t cold today.
Will I be good with just Redline assembly lube on rings and skirts or go get a coffee can and dip them in break in oil or racing oil? Using a tapered ring compressor 4.030
Balance rotating assembly, flywheel, added metal, installed pistons to rods: total of $215 out the door.
Excellent.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
Pistons are clocked and ready to install today or sometime this week depending if my buddy’s shop isn’t cold today.
Will I be good with just Redline assembly lube on rings and skirts or go get a coffee can and dip them in break in oil or racing oil? Using a tapered ring compressor 4.030
DO NOT dip them in oil! There's no reason to have that much lube in the cylinders.
My procedure is to have the cylinders final-honed with a dingleberry brush--240 grit is common and acceptable for Moly rings, but I bought a 320-grit (very fine) brush. Kerosene for lube. After the cylinders have proper cross-hatch, I scrub them vertically with a green Scotchbrite pad. This is a tip I got from reading David Vizard's work. And of course, clean, clean, clean afterwards. Some sort of solvent is fine at first, but final cleaning of the cylinder walls is done with HOT soapy water. Compressed-air dry, and then a clean rag with some auto trans fluid (ATF) wiped on the metal to prevent rust. That's all the lube the cylinder walls get--or need.
I handle the pistons with some ATF on my hands, and squirt a little ATF onto the piston pin. The rings pick up ATF from my fingers, as do the piston skirts. The only part of this that I go out of my way to lube are the piston pins--everything else on the piston is just transfer from my hands. (but I keep my hands wet with ATF) The pistons go in the bore with a LIGHT coating of ATF, they certainly do not have enough lube on them to drip. I haven't used your assembly lube, is it thin enough for pistons/rings? When I think of assembly lube, I think of heavy weight stuff for cam 'n' lifters, and bearings.
The 5.7L I finished back last December was so friction-free that I could turn the crank with all eight pistons 'n' rings, timing chain and cam (short block, no oil pump, no lifters, no heads) at 15 ft/lbs torque on the crank snout.
Can't help you with cam selection. I just re-used the Vortec cam and lifters that came in the short-block.
.034" seems like a lot of endplay, the small block I am doing at the moment had .005-.007". I use ATF on bores/rings as well. I can VOUCH that '191 TBI heads are NOT 71 cc. Mine cc'd at 65 cc by machineshop and I did them myself. I used wrinkle bake paint on my last set of valve covers. It's cool but not as durable as I thought, plus cleaning oil/grease off it is hard. I am going to run the TPI L98 cam with 1.7 rockers in my truck engine. I am running 2 piece timing cover and LSx style lifter trays so if I decide to change cam down the road, i just have to loosen off rockers, pull water pump and outter timing cover, rotate engine twice and pull cam out. No pulling intake or oil pan.
I thought I took pictures of my throttle/TV bracket vortec setup but I cant find them I will try and get them this weekend.
.034" seems like a lot of endplay, the small block I am doing at the moment had .005-.007". I use ATF on bores/rings as well. I can VOUCH that '191 TBI heads are NOT 71 cc. Mine cc'd at 65 cc by machineshop and I did them myself. I used wrinkle bake paint on my last set of valve covers. It's cool but not as durable as I thought, plus cleaning oil/grease off it is hard. I am going to run the TPI L98 cam with 1.7 rockers in my truck engine. I am running 2 piece timing cover and LSx style lifter trays so if I decide to change cam down the road, i just have to loosen off rockers, pull water pump and outter timing cover, rotate engine twice and pull cam out. No pulling intake or oil pan.
I thought I took pictures of my throttle/TV bracket vortec setup but I cant find them I will try and get them this weekend.
that wasn’t the end play. Only had 0.007 end play and pistons are 0.035
I’m stuck between l98 cam (oem for 9c1) or LT4. Both seem good for highway and higher speeds. I have surgery Wednesday so probably only get to cam and timing chain while off work.
Just curious, does your 9C1 cam have a fuel pump lobe? what about the lt4?
The cams are pretty similar. The LT4 has more lift. I opted for the L98 cam because it had a fuel pump lobe (i am running a Qjet). I figured the LT4 cam would have not had one, I know the LT1 cam I have has no fuel pump lobe.
Keep us posted very interested in your build. If I recollect the 9c1 350 is just an L98 with a TBI on it using 68lb injectors instead of 61lb, ive heard 083 heads and ive heard 193 heads? Pretty much what I will be using also, an L98 with TBI.
Used the assembly lube on bores and pistons. Stuff from redline is extra slick and rotation torque was around 30lbft
Tapered ring compressor made this job easy
Keep us posted very interested in your build. If I recollect the 9c1 350 is just an L98 with a TBI on it using 68lb injectors instead of 61lb, ive heard 083 heads and ive heard 193 heads? Pretty much what I will be using also, an L98 with TBI.
The 2 9c1 engines I tore down 10 years ago had '193 heads.
my block was flat tappet with roller provions. its tapped and has spider and cam plate- need the retainers. going with the stock LT4 cam- most of the LT impss and 9c1s have when to that or "hot-cam" and its cheaper too (purchasing within next week). I went with melling oil filter adapter w/ factory gasket, M155 oil pump- swapped in a high pressure relief spring, swapped factory windage tray for speedway motors louvered version.
At the moment i have to get another pick up. I would use the old one since its clean and ready to go but I dont have the 305 block out yet to swap pans- it has the oil level sensor in it. I dont want to be held up over a pickup tube at very end. figured i can use a bolt on .75 pickup for a 7 1/2 deep pan. Anyone see any problems going this route? i know it cost a little extra but i'd have to pay my guy to braze a stock one and have to remove to reinstall pressure relief spring.
as regards the vortec heads. machinist had some he cleaned up for $600-dont know if they've been modded or not; didn't ask, $700 chevrolet performance vortec heads- pressed in studs, $680 summit brand vortec heads- screw in studs.
I am leaning towards the summit brand- advice?
had knee scoped so I've been taking it easy for some weeks. I got a trans crossmember from B-Body LT1 so I can have tru duals. will upload more pics so as i get my new phone- been peaceful off the grid lol
The 5.7L I finished back last December was so friction-free that I could turn the crank with all eight pistons 'n' rings, timing chain and cam (short block, no oil pump, no lifters, no heads) at 15 ft/lbs torque on the crank snout.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
Used the assembly lube on bores and pistons. Stuff from redline is extra slick and rotation torque was around 30lbft
1. I would not have used that assembly lube on the rings/pistons. I certainly would not have used THAT MUCH, as shown in the photos.
2. Torque to turn the crank seems high, especially considering you're not showing cam and timing chain in the photos.
3. Did you assure that the piston pins are appropriately lubed?
1. I would not have used that assembly lube on the rings/pistons. I certainly would not have used THAT MUCH, as shown in the photos.
2. Torque to turn the crank seems high, especially considering you're not showing cam and timing chain in the photos.
3. Did you assure that the piston pins are appropriately lubed?
yeah that much was over kill. I ended up rechecking using my beam torque wrench and number was signifficantly lower~20 breakaway. machinist had all it all ready for me to drop in after balance-still added some tho.
The pump is submerged in oil. It would take thirty seconds to prime that pump, fill the oil filter and main engine oil galleries, and build pressure using a HAND-POWERED oil pump priming tool. This one is for a Pontiac, but Chevy would be similar. Spin it by hand in the direction of distributor rotation about one or two revolutions per second. (60--120 rpm) You're done when you see oil pressure on the gauge--but I typically go five or ten seconds longer for no good reason. For fukk sakes, do not make a career out of priming, turning the crank, priming some more, turning the crank, priming some more--until oil squirts over the fenders. Not needed, obsessive-compulsive waste of time.
For that matter, you wouldn't need to prime the pump at all. That engine would have oil pressure five seconds after the engine starts. Assembly lube is on all the moving parts, so five seconds without oil is nothing to be concerned about.
Packing the pump with grease is just going to plug the oil filter on startup.
The pump is submerged in oil. It would take thirty seconds to prime that pump,
For that matter, you wouldn't need to prime the pump at all.
Packing the pump with grease is just going to plug the oil filter on startup.
👍🏼 The lube I used wasn’t grease or thick-redline liquid. It should prime quickly . FSM says oil needs to reach rockers to purge air and prime everything.
Any opinions on the Chevrolet Performance Vortec heads($419) vs. Summits Vortecs($363) or Jegs? machinists has some cleaned up stock ones for $550 trying to get heads and install in next couple weeks. was tempted to take some heads from pull a part and have them cleaned up but I've heard the stockers were crack prone. any input welcomed
Any opinions on the Chevrolet Performance Vortec heads($419) vs. Summits Vortecs($363) or Jegs? machinists has some cleaned up stock ones for $550 trying to get heads and install in next couple weeks. was tempted to take some heads from pull a part and have them cleaned up but I've heard the stockers were crack prone. any input welcomed
Pretty much I’m asking is a Vortec is a Vortec is a Vortec when it comes stock lift range. I noticed one is 64cc and other 67. I’ve got the stock LT4 cam seems lift is okay with anyone of those but springs on jegs are different. Still learning valvetrain
Guessing, but I would think the GM heads are cast in Mexico, and the Jegs/Summit are Chinese.
We have a fellow on a truck forum cussing Jegs Chinese heads...poor machining, not matching (one has bronze guides, one does not). Unfortunately he did not notice until he had painted the heads and installed the first one, so Jegs won't do a thing for him.
Factory Vortec heads can crack if overheated, but so can any head. I got the L31 in my Suburban super hot towing our travel trailer over the mountains on the way to Carlisle PA a few summers back...2nd gear, flat out, barely holding 35 mph by the time I hit the crest, 100+ ambient day...nasty. I thought sure I'd have issues, but she cooled down, and has been fine ever since.
Guessing, but I would think the GM heads are cast in Mexico, and the Jegs/Summit are Chinese.
We have a fellow on a truck forum cussing Jegs Chinese heads...poor machining, not matching (one has bronze guides, one does not). Unfortunately he did not notice until he had painted the heads and installed the first one, so Jegs won't do a thing for him.
Factory Vortec heads can crack if overheated, but so can any head. I got the L31 in my Suburban super hot towing our travel trailer over the mountains on the way to Carlisle PA a few summers back...2nd gear, flat out, barely holding 35 mph by the time I hit the crest, 100+ ambient day...nasty. I thought sure I'd have issues, but she cooled down, and has been fine ever since.
I have actually cracked 2 pairs of Vortecs on my Express van. 1st set was caused when that stupid radiator drain plug sheared in half in rush hour traffic on my way home. Drained all the coolant out and I was a block away from the house when I noticed the temperature gauge about 3/4 up. Never even hit the redline and it cracked both sets of heads between the intake and exhaust valves in cylinders 5 and 4.
The 2nd time was a 4" section of heater hose that was hidden behind an exhaust heat shield on the frame. It connects two aluminum hard lines together for the rear heater. I had previously changed every heater hose in the thing or so I thought. The hose split on a trip and caused the engine to yet again mildly overheat. Cracked the RH head in the #4 exhaust seat.
In both cases the engine still ran fine, but had a small but steady coolant consumption. Never saw coolant in the oil or exhaust steam and also never smelled coolant burning. Just trace amounts getting into the combustion chamber and an occasional misfire on cold startup.
With both of those experiences as well as practically every Vortec head I come across in the scrap yard now days being cracked, I have started using aftermarket aluminum Vortecs. I have had the Etec 170s on my 350 as well as a 305 and currently have Assalt Racing 205s on 2 different engines.
You are unlikely to crack a head if it still has coolant in the system, even if you were to get the engine to 280*F.
ts the lack of coolant and the resulting unequal heating of the cylinder head that causes it to distort and therefore crack or warp in the case of an aluminum head.
If you still have that L31 Suburban an early duramax fan blade will bolt on to a 2007 6.0L Trailblazer SS thermal fan clutch and the fan clutch threads right onto the L31 water pump. That combination fit in the shroud of the express van with some minor trimming to the shroud.
I have had the Express van (~350 hp 350 at the time) pinned to the floor for 60 miles (4,000-4,500 rpm @ 70-75 mph) pulling my travel trailer into a bad headwind on a 105*F day trying to beat a storm and it stayed under 190*F. That fan sounds like a semi truck fan when it engages and moves a massive amount of air.
If you still have that L31 Suburban an early duramax fan blade will bolt on to a 2007 6.0L Trailblazer SS thermal fan clutch and the fan clutch threads right onto the L31 water pump. That combination fit in the shroud of the express van with some minor trimming to the shroud.
I have had the Express van (~350 hp 350 at the time) pinned to the floor for 60 miles (4,000-4,500 rpm @ 70-75 mph) pulling my travel trailer into a bad headwind on a 105*F day trying to beat a storm and it stayed under 190*F. That fan sounds like a semi truck fan when it engages and moves a massive amount of air.
My Express fan sounds like a turbo-prop when cold as-is. I can't imagine an even noisier one! But extra cooling is always welcome. The Express just got a new 180* thermostat, and made a run through Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Illinois, an back through Indiana and Michigan. Moving my daughter back from college, the van was packed and her car on the trailer, had to run pretty hard in the hills of Kentucky, Tennessee in 3rd to hold 65mph, and that temp gauge never budged from it new home at a lower mark on the temp gauge. It appears the radiator has lots extra capacity.
And thanks for the warning about the hidden heater hose...something else to watch out for.
Hey I am looking for Opinions. I used one of 1/2" click torque wrenches i use for wheels to lock a head and it snapped head bolt off like glass- never clicked. I had machinist extract bolt-$0. Machinist says good to go. I get a set of bolts off him for one head. I put that head back on and used my buddy's snap-on beam click torque wrench to lock bolts down. Problem is that on final pass it'd give a weak click and I double pull to make sure its locked down but the bolts still seamed to move a hair more getting it to click again. I got fed up with situation and wrapped up for the day to get my mind right-going through a shift change at work. I purchased an AC Delco digital read out torque adapter over the weekend to do other head with the bolts i purchased from the machinist.
Would I be wrong to loosen the other bolts and re torque the first head? if I did would gasket be affected? Does it matter that I used the washers that came with the bolts even though they're iron heads?
just for added info: I used other half of head bolt set(Elgin) for the one head and other is getting Liberty head bolts
I used one of 1/2" click torque wrenches i use for wheels to lock a head and it snapped head bolt off like glass- never clicked.
STOP using 1/2" torque wrench for SBC head bolts. The head bolts go in at such a low torque that the typical 50--250 1/2" torque wrench isn't very accurate. I use a 20--100 3/8 torque wrench THAT GETS THE CALIBRATION CHECKED now and then.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
used my buddy's snap-on beam click torque wrench to lock bolts down. Problem is that on final pass it'd give a weak click and I double pull to make sure its locked down but the bolts still seamed to move a hair more getting it to click again... ...Does it matter that I used the washers that came with the bolts even though they're iron heads?
1. This is a "Split-Beam" torque wrench? When was the last time the torque wrench was sent in for calibration testing/adjustment?
2. Again, use a 3/8 torque wrench if possible.
3. If you add an extension between socket and torque wrench, they "click" louder.
4. Where did you apply the grease or oil on the head of the bolt? Did you lube the UNDERSIDE of the washer/top of the cylinder head, or ONLY the underside of the bolt head? Never apply assembly lube of any sort to the underside of the head bolt washer, where it touches the cylinder head. And, of course, you have sealer on the bolt threads.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
I purchased an AC Delco digital read out torque adapter over the weekend to do other head with the bolts i purchased from the machinist.
I have NO faith in "AC-Delco" tools ever since they started selling Chinese junk tools at Sam's Club. AC-Delco-branded tools were ALL Chinese bottom-feeder crap ten or twenty years ago. Be VERY CAREFUL.
Originally Posted by IndyL03
Would I be wrong to loosen the other bolts and re torque the first head? if I did would gasket be affected?
You're just making extra work for yourself at this point, assuming that the torque wrench was reasonably accurate. Consider running the engine for ten minutes, let it cool, loosen each bolt in the torque pattern a quarter-turn, then re-torque. Gasket should be fine if the original torque was accurate.
STOP using 1/2" torque wrench for SBC head bolts. The head bolts go in at such a low torque that the typical 50--250 1/2" torque wrench isn't very accurate. I use a 20--100 3/8 torque wrench THAT GETS THE CALIBRATION CHECKED now and then.
1. This is a "Split-Beam" torque wrench? When was the last time the torque wrench was sent in for calibration testing/adjustment?
2. Again, use a 3/8 torque wrench if possible.
3. If you add an extension between socket and torque wrench, they "click" louder.
4. Where did you apply the grease or oil on the head of the bolt? Did you lube the UNDERSIDE of the washer/top of the cylinder head, or ONLY the underside of the bolt head? Never apply assembly lube of any sort to the underside of the head bolt washer, where it touches the cylinder head. And, of course, you have sealer on the bolt threads.
I have NO faith in "AC-Delco" tools ever since they started selling Chinese junk tools at Sam's Club. AC-Delco-branded tools were ALL Chinese bottom-feeder crap ten or twenty years ago. Be VERY CAREFUL.
You're just making extra work for yourself at this point, assuming that the torque wrench was reasonably accurate. Consider running the engine for ten minutes, let it cool, loosen each bolt in the torque pattern a quarter-turn, then re-torque. Gasket should be fine if the original torque was accurate.
1.) First I used 30-250 micrometer click (which after research I found out is only accurate from 30% of max scale so never works low enough for SBC head bolts) Second attempt was with a Split-Beam click and I am not aware of the calibration and doubtful my buddy has had it serviced-mainly used for 3400,3800,3500,&3900 V6 heads or his personal BMW or Denali
2.) I have one 3/8 micrometer click from HF Ive only had some months and used it for cam gear on this enginge
3.) I did use a short extension but that didn't help much in sound and wasn't torqued with accuracy for both those 1/2 drive wrenches aren't accurate that low on the scale
4.) I was oblivious to this knowledge. I dabbed some slick ish from RedLine under and above the washer
At this point all I know is that I'm guilty on all counts. since i cant verify I did that head accurate I'll err on the side of caution and get another 5746 gasket on payday or sooner and another set of bolts for that head- better to bust $45 and have peace of mind than be on the side of road looking sick. I'll also clean the spot faces of that assembly lube.
You guys are an excellent resource. thanks
12-10-2018, 09:21 AM
But extra cooling is always welcome. The Express just got a new 180* thermostat, and made a run through Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Illinois, an back through Indiana and Michigan. Moving my daughter back from college, the van was packed and her car on the trailer, had to run pretty hard in the hills of Kentucky, Tennessee in 3rd to hold 65mph, and that temp gauge never budged from it new home at a lower mark on the temp gauge. It appears the radiator has lots extra capacity.