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The short & sweet, I'm replacing the timing chain. I will be using a double roller JEGS Timing Chain Set. I'll be following the service manual but had a question or two.
- Does the engine need to be at operating temp?
- Do I have to remove the entire oil pan?
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 05-20-2019 at 07:47 PM.
Reason: Completed
The short & sweet, I'm replacing the timing chain. I will be using a double roller JEGS Timing Chain Set. I'll be following the service manual but had a question or two.
- Does the engine need to be at operating temp?
No; if it were, you'd have a tough time getting your hands in there.
- Do I have to remove the entire oil pan?
In theory, all that's required is to loosen the pan bolts to allow the pan to drop down in front just enough to allow the lip on the bottom of the front cover to clear it. In practice, however, and especially if the pan has previously never been off the engine, you may damage the pan gasket in the process, necessitating removing the pan to replace the gasket.
Water pump removed. I also see the welded on timing indicator mentioned so back to JEGS that shiny chrome cover goes. The bolts weren't as tight as I expected and I don't know that the oem gaskets were blue, so it may have been off before.
Sounds like someone has been in there before and used felpro gaskets.
If you have trouble getting the timing cover to separate from the block you can use a skinny puddy knife and wedge it between the cover and block.
Last edited by Tuned Performance; 04-25-2019 at 09:12 PM.
Good to see yer in there getting yer hands dirty, the more stuff like this you do, the more you'll know, timing chains are basic, sounds like yer a master at it now. One of the nice things about sbc, basic....
I hope you're planning to degree the camshaft while you're in there. You might be OK without doing this...but there's no way to know for sure, and fixing it means tearing the whole front back off again.
I hope you're planning to degree the camshaft while you're in there. You might be OK without doing this...but there's no way to know for sure, and fixing it means tearing the whole front back off again.
It would appear that it's a stock engine and he's using a cheap timing kit that's likely limited to 4 degree's advance or 4 degrees retard - which it is not likely to be off by that much so running a degree on it is probably a waste of time. Just install the kit straight up and that should be perfectly fine for the stock cam. As it was intended from GM (remember the GM timing set's had no degree adjustment).
Had a minor setback. Removed pulley from HB, grabbed the Harbor Freight HB/Wheel puller kit and what do ya know NONE of the bolts have the same thread pattern. The ones removed w/ the pulley are to short. Tomorrow i'll have to either buy new bolts or try one of these 3-Jaw pullers.
Had a minor setback. Removed pulley from HB, grabbed the Harbor Freight HB/Wheel puller kit and what do ya know NONE of the bolts have the same thread pattern. The ones removed w/ the pulley are to short. Tomorrow i'll have to either buy new bolts or try one of these 3-Jaw pullers.
DO NOT use a "3-jaw puller;" get the right bolts and use the balancer puller.
As already advised, just install the set with the timing marks in the factory position; that'll be fine for your stock engine.
Another minor setback. Bought three 4in fine thread bolts and they fit. Lined up the HB removal tool, installed bolts. Began turning the BIG bolt in the middle but the HB just spins vs pulling off. It took so much muscle just to spin I had to bail and come ask for suggestions. Impact wrench?
It would appear that it's a stock engine and he's using a cheap timing kit that's likely limited to 4 degree's advance or 4 degrees retard - which it is not likely to be off by that much so running a degree on it is probably a waste of time. Just install the kit straight up and that should be perfectly fine for the stock cam. As it was intended from GM (remember the GM timing set's had no degree adjustment).
GD
You're saying that none of the low-budget aftermarket junk timing sets have ever had a problem with misaligned keyways? Nobody has ever used the wrong keyway in a a three-keyway timing set, either.
Yup, he'll PROBABLY be OK.
NOT a risk I would be willing to take. I won't install a cam without throwing a degree wheel on the engine and MAKING SURE. But then, I don't work on flat-rate, and I already own the degree wheel, dial indicator, and fixtures.
Originally Posted by ironwill
And for the record, when the cam-timing marks are lined up like this, the distributor rotor should be pointing to #6, NOT #1.
You're saying that none of the low-budget aftermarket junk timing sets have ever had a problem with misaligned keyways? Nobody has ever used the wrong keyway in a a three-keyway timing set, either.
Yup, he'll PROBABLY be OK.
NOT a risk I would be willing to take. I won't install a cam without throwing a degree wheel on the engine and MAKING SURE. But then, I don't work on flat-rate, and I already own the degree wheel, dial indicator, and fixtures.
And for the record, when the cam-timing marks are lined up like this, the distributor rotor should be pointing to #6, NOT #1.
Well I've done quite a few and never had any issue on a stock engine. The SBC being a fairly ubiquitous machine makes it pretty unlikely you would get a timing set from the likes of JEGS or Summit Racing that would be significantly off (though I stick to primarily Cloyes made in USA myself). Also you line up the timing marks when you take it off and you don't move them till the timing set is back on so basically nothing should change. If the new timing set won't fit without turning things a whole bunch then starting asking questions. If it's a simple remove and replace without moving anything and it fits like it's supposed to be there in that position then I think the risk extremely low. Especially if what you pulled off was stock GM parts and you know the basic history on the car.
At any rate I don't think it would be off by *enough* that a timing set limited to a minimum change of 4 degrees would even fix it. Yeah maybe it could use a 1.5 degree adjustment but in practice I doubt that would make a significant difference in the results. And to effect that change would require something like a Cloyes Hex Adjust set, etc - considerably more expensive than a basic set.
You can measure the chain deflection. Regardless your in there just line up the timing marks and install the new chain. Soaking the chain in oil isn’t a bad idea. You might also look at the front of the cam for cam I’d marki. Someone has been in that engine just to reaseal or maybe a rebuild or cam swap.
Lined up, tried checking for "slop" here, the right side won't budge, the left side is like a loose bike chain. Is there a way to keep it from moving while applying the ratchet?
Depends on what rotation you moved the engine what side would have tension on it.
do you have a impact ?
The bolts should only be around 20 ft lbs in torque. You can always put a wrench on them and shock with a hammer. Or put a piece of wood between the cam and crank gears to illuminate movement.
just don’t get any debris in the pan.
As for your other post with the 880 casting. This could be a 350.
You will have to look at the block casting behind the drivers side head.
It will say 5.0 or 5.7L.
Where is this cam ID mark? I don't see any writing. What are these other castings, 878 and G39? Can I use a 3-jaw on that crank gear or no? I'm not moving forward w/out advice lol, to far in to fubar.
I’m not sure what the casting numbers refer to. Yes you can use a 3 jaw puller. You might want to use a few washers in the front of it so it presses on the washers not the hole for the balancer bolt.
You might also look at the front of the cam for cam I’d marki. Someone has been in that engine just to reaseal or maybe a rebuild or cam swap.
Where is this Cam ID marking?
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
Yes you can use a 3 jaw puller. You might want to use a few washers in the front of it so it presses on the washers not the hole for the balancer bolt.
Thanks!
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 04-28-2019 at 02:37 PM.
Minor setback, I can't get the 3-jaw puller to seat, while I hold the washers in place and try to turn the bolt. Might need to buy a gear puller or take a mental break and give it another go.
UPDATE: Went to Harbor Freight and grabbed a Gear Puller set and still can't get the crank gear off. Is there a secret way to remove it?
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 04-28-2019 at 04:41 PM.
In every YouTube video I could find the crank gear came off with a 2 or 3 jaw puller but I still can't get the crank gear off. It's like the tighter I crank the pull-rod against the washer vs the crank gear pulling off the crank wants to turn so I keep stopping. This is extremely discouraging for a noob...
Make sure the key that keeps the gear from turning on the crankshaft isn't somehow preventing the gear from coming off. The propane torch IS the safe option, IF (big IF) you're giving up on pulling it cold. After that, it's a matter of splitting the gear with a hammer and chisel, and nobody really wants to do that. Too easy to mess up the crank snout.
In MY shop, I'd screw the crankshaft damper bolt WITHOUT THE BIGASS WASHER into the end of the crankshaft, grease the threads of the 3-jaw puller's forcing screw where it goes through the puller body. Put the 3-jaw puller back on the crank gear, . The forcing screw plugs into a cup at the bottom end--either a cone or a flat surface depending on what you're pushing against. Use the cup that has a flat surface to push against the bolt threaded into the crank.
Hit the bitch with a 1/2" drive impact wrench turned up to "11".
Done.
If you don't have an impact wrench (shame on you!) LOCK THE FLYWHEEL somehow, as you turn the pressure screw of the puller. A flywheel turning tool, held by a helper so that the flywheel can't spin in the direction you're turning the wrench/ratchet would be fine.
But, yeah, if that doesn't work...warm the gear with a propane torch, reconnect the 3-jaw puller, and see what happens.
Where is this cam ID mark? I don't see any writing. What are these other castings, 878 and G39? Can I use a 3-jaw on that crank gear or no? I'm not moving forward w/out advice lol, to far in to fubar.
OEM cam ID is between the first journal and where the fuel lobe is (if cast into the crank). most aftermarket cams stamp or scribe it into the front where viewed from your picture.
Originally Posted by 92RS-HeritageEd
The short & sweet, I'm replacing the timing chain. I will be using a double roller JEGS Timing Chain Set. I'll be following the service manual but had a question or two.
- Does the engine need to be at operating temp?
- Do I have to remove the entire oil pan?
run a stock AC delco HD timing set. most of the aftermarket stuff will require degreeing cam and longevity is much less with that "bicycle" chain.
I've tried at least 3 more times, all fails. My impact wrench wont clear the radiator and onto the bolt, when I tried the torch the tip of the torch started glowing red so of course I bailed, safety first. The best news I have is that I haven't damaged the crank snout or its threads.
This task is however on hold until my mechanic arrives Saturday morning. I'm going to take a vid of how he takes it off.
You just stick a large screwdriver through your 3-jaw and use it as a lever to keep the crank from turning while you crank on the puller. It's easy.
GD
Idk if it was divine intervention or the long extension bar I used as you suggested GD but WE'RE BACK IN BUSINESS. I'd like to note... as Tuned pointed out earlier it wasn't that tight of a pressed fit after all!
New crank gear went into the oven pre-greased for 20 min or so @ 300*ish. Grabbed the leather gloves, grabbed the pan from the oven ran outside and on the first try got it in the keyway for 0* w/ dot in what looks to be the same position as crank gear that was removed!
It's about 1cm or so from fully seated however so now I have to get a gear installer but I'm making progress.
EDIT: No local parts store has a Crankshaft Gear Installation Tool, they claim it's a special order only. Is there anything that can be safely used instead?
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 05-03-2019 at 06:09 PM.
idk what a "drift" is but I ran to Menards and grabbed a 1-1/2 X 4 pipe nipple. Placed a towel over the crank snout & gear then slid the pipe over it. Fits nice, started tapping at it w/ my rubber mallet... no dice. Might have to try pulling it off, going for a longer bake period for more expansion and trying again since no store in the region has the tool.
You can use a pipe nipple under the harmonic balancer installation tool to push it on. You can get a harmonic balancer install tool from any parts store. A brass drift is just a flat, straight or tapered punch made of brass.
Went w/ Plan B (lol) and pulled the crank gear off > back in oven at 350* for 30min > greased crank snout while waiting. Repeated install and it fully seated, I heard the "tink" as the gear met its stopping point. Let it cool for about 30 min, lined up the dots, and fought to ensure the chain was on the right tooth to get there (SUPER PITA) but now it appears to be on and has no slack. I think can break out the torque wrench now!
All torqued down to 21ft/lb, all bolts went in w/ ease. This probably isn't really that hard of a job, just need one or two under the belt to build confidence.
Can't get the oil pan to come down a smidgen more to get the cover back on and lined up. I loosened the 1st two bolts on both sides in the beginning but now I see the pan seems stuck to it's mounting surface even w/ the loose bolts. A flathead isn't working. Any suggestions?
Update: Got under the car > fit tc cover in from the bottom over the lip and snugged it in. From up-top I used a mini screwdriver in a bolt hole to pry slightly to the side while I used the strength of 30 men to push it down and it went into place! Cover bolts went in smooth and have been torqued to 97in/lb.
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 05-05-2019 at 11:16 AM.
You need to push the damper on until it seats against the crankshaft timing gear. In other words, push it on until it stops moving.
Install bigass washer, and torque damper bolt to specs. DO NOT use the bolt to pull the damper into place.
Did I miss the part where you installed a new seal in the timing cover, and inspected the damper for a groove from rubbing on the old seal? I'd expect you need a repair sleeve on that damper. Timken, Fel-Pro and others sell the repair sleeves, typically under $10.
The damper holds the crank sprocket in place by press fit. The key alone is not sufficient. The bolt keeps it all from loosening. You MUST seat the damper against the crank sprocket. Install till it STOPS.
All put back together! I tried torquing the crank bolt to 70ft/lb w/ the belt on, engine rotated a bit will this have an impact? Battery's on the charger, tomorrow i'll refill the coolant and hopefully it starts.
04-25-2019, 01:52 PM
I still can't get the crank gear off. It's like the tighter I crank the pull-rod against the washer vs the crank gear pulling off the crank wants to turn so I keep stopping. This is extremely discouraging for a noob...
will this have an impact? Battery's on the charger, tomorrow i'll refill the coolant and hopefully it starts.
