When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
I think I need to change my oil pan gasket long story
but I know sometold me it's doable without pulling the engine
but I had a t56 and I can't remember if the tranny and clutch and flywheel came off
and the dist and Jack it way high up to get access to the pan
I did it once
and I have everything together
Do I have to take the tranny off
No it is not really possible with the engine in the car, with a T-56. Unless of course, you pull the transmission; then it's "possible", but still a major ordeal.
Why do you think you need to change it? unless you screw it up yourself somehow, it hardly ever goes bad in your setup.
I already did get the oil pan off when I first put the engine in
and my tranny was off but I just unbloted the 2 front engine mounts and used 2 jacks from undernaeth and jacked it up on the block with a 2 foot 2x4 and pipe laying around
I got it up that high that I could get the pan off
I guess my question is that is it easier to just take the tranny off and do that
considering I don't have a engine hoist
I would have to rent or buy one
tpi tune ppl did this but he had a automatic and jacked up on the tranny itself to get it in tight and then it worked
No it is not really possible with the engine in the car, with a T-56. Unless of course, you pull the transmission; then it's "possible", but still a major ordeal.
Why do you think you need to change it? unless you screw it up yourself somehow, it hardly ever goes bad in your setup.
this sat my sbc started burning oil
really bad
I have wiseco stroker pistons and scat rods and je rings thin rings
30 over everything
and when I built it 3 years ago it has 205 psi each cylinder
now I have 180 each cylinder
I took the plugs all out and I got 2 cylinders burning oil
and I'm really pissed off
I hate je anything
I use synthetic oil
I was changing out the 4 inj on the passenger side and the fuel leaked into the holes and after that it smoked like a bastard
maybe someone put oil in my gas tank
because I refuse to believe that a engine that has 2000kms on it is bad already
The missing was a melted wire almost touching the header
so I got a new set coming from summit tomm
maybe
I put in 20w50 started it up and slowed it maybe 30%
does anyone know anything that can free up s stuck oil ring before I have to rip it apart
It's not JE's fault - it's your build. We use a TON of JE pistons and none of our builds burn oil. It's all about cylinder wall finish, proper clearances, lubrication, etc. Cylinder wall finish was probably too aggressive and wiped out the thin rings. They don't like a "typical" small block finish. They need a 600 grit plateau machine hone.
Explain to me how the "oil ring is stuck" at 20k km when you run synthetic? You know that's not possible unless it was assembled wrong or is worn right out due to improper clearance or something. The secondary compression ring is probably wiped - it's primary job is oil control. Which would make sense that you have compression but the scraper ring isn't doing it's job. Likely got hot due to cylinder walls being too rough and lost it's seal. Either that or the cylinder wall is wiped and scored. Could always be a some wiped out valve guides also.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 07-13-2020 at 02:30 PM.
It's not JE's fault - it's your build. We use a TON of JE pistons and none of our builds burn oil. It's all about cylinder wall finish, proper clearances, lubrication, etc. Cylinder wall finish was probably too aggressive and wiped out the thin rings. They don't like a "typical" small block finish. They need a 600 grit plateau machine hone.
Explain to me how the "oil ring is stuck" at 20k km? You know that's not possible. The secondary compression ring is wiped - it's primary job is oil control.
GD
over time carbon siezes up the oil rings
and no offence I had the block bored 30 over and they tapped the rings
ready to go
zero issues
and I can't accept that je thin rings are ****
over time carbon siezes up the oil rings
and no offence I had the block bored 30 over and they tapped the rings
ready to go
zero issues
and I can't accept that je thin rings are ****
I only use wiseco stroker pistons and rings in my 6 bolt 1g dsm
that is why i bought this piston kit
but it came with je piston rings
summit sells there version
if I have to buy a new set it will never be je anything again
It should have been wiseco
over time carbon siezes up the oil rings
and no offence I had the block bored 30 over and they tapped the rings
ready to go
zero issues
and I can't accept that je thin rings are ****
Having the block bored over was your first mistake. They didn't hone it correctly it would seem.
Synthetic oil doesn't produce carbon to the extent that it would cause an oil ring the seize up - especially not in 20k. That's just wishful thinking on your part. You can pull the piston and see for yourself.
The rings are fine with the correct surface finish. We run exclusively thin rings.
Having the block bored over was your first mistake. They didn't hone it correctly it would seem.
Synthetic oil doesn't produce carbon to the extent that it would cause an oil ring the seize up - especially not in 20k. That's just wishful thinking on your part. You can pull the piston and see for yourself.
The rings are fine with the correct surface finish. We run exclusively thin rings.
GD
it only has 2000kms not 20k
and I know
with my t56 can I Jack the engine up on the front to get the oil pan off
So after the tranny comes out, engine jacked up and oil pan off, then what? Sounds like the pistons need to come out, so that means the intake, exhaust and heads have to come off too. Sure, it can be done in the car, but it would be a lot easier to rent a hoist, pull the motor and tear it down on a stand.
So after the tranny comes out, engine jacked up and oil pan off, then what? Sounds like the pistons need to come out, so that means the intake, exhaust and heads have to come off too. Sure, it can be done in the car, but it would be a lot easier to rent a hoist, pull the motor and tear it down on a stand.
I don't have a hoist
I do have a stand
are you sure there is no way to get the pan without the tranny off
I don't have a hoist
I do have a stand
are you sure there is no way to get the pan without the tranny off
No, I'm not sure of that as I haven't tried it myself, just going by the other responses in this thread. You could certainly give it a try by pulling the distributor and jacking up the motor. If the pan won't come out with the T56 in place, then rent a hoist and pull the motor.
Before messing with the oil pan, I would probably pull the intake and heads so you can see what the cylinder walls look like. If they are all scored, then the motor has to come out anyway and then just pull it.
I don't have a hoist
I do have a stand
are you sure there is no way to get the pan without the tranny off
You can support the engine with a spreader bar and remove the engine cradle and control arms. My car is actually waiting on an UMI K-member at the moment and is just sitting with the engine on a spreader bar with no cradle or control arms (both went in the recycle). I did this partially so I could get at the oil pan due to a leak and to replace the relief valve spring in my oil pump to drop my oil pressure to a reasonable level. With no cradle the pan just drops straight down.
You can support the engine with a spreader bar and remove the engine cradle and control arms. My car is actually waiting on an UMI K-member at the moment and is just sitting with the engine on a spreader bar with no cradle or control arms (both went in the recycle). I did this partially so I could get at the oil pan due to a leak and to replace the relief valve spring in my oil pump to drop my oil pressure to a reasonable level. With no cradle the pan just drops straight down.
GD
what's involved in removing the cradle
I never have
it's all original
Compress the springs, pop the ball joints, and unbolt it from everything it attaches to - the engine, the uni-body, and a bunch of brake lines mostly. It's straightforward.
Compress the springs, pop the ball joints, and unbolt it from everything it attaches to - the engine, the uni-body, and a bunch of brake lines mostly. It's straightforward.
GD
with your new piece does it give you access to the oil pan ?
Wow nice
that's good to know
and I found the machine shop receipt
and bored and rings gapped and no honing
I didn't hone it
I thought it was by them
but it doesn't say they did it
450 cdn decked and a 4 bolt roller cam block
so I'm an idiot
who will have to redo the rings and hone it
If they bored the cylinders, they likely honed them as well even though the receipt didn’t specifically say so. I’ve never heard of a machine shop that wouldn’t hone after boring.
Of course I'm sure they were honed but that doesn't mean they honed them to the proper surface finish for thin rings. You need like a 600 to 1000 grit plateau finish for thin rings.
one time in my 1g dsm turbo
They bored the block and decked it and it was cheaper for me to hone it myself
it lasted for 100k of 500hp beatings wiseco piston and rings
if I take a pic and show you will you tell me what grit mine is ?
If they bored the cylinders, they likely honed them as well even though the receipt didn’t specifically say so. I’ve never heard of a machine shop that wouldn’t hone after boring.
Who assembled the short block?
I did it myself
and I have done them 7 times in the years
My lisle honer is 220 grit
and I can get 500 grit replacement stones on summit in stock same as the new summit rings
is that good enough
I'm sure they didn't hone it
It really needs to be a plateau hone done in a machine where it is held rigid and the strokes per revolution are controlled. 600 grit diamond stones are generally recommended for modern thin rings. They don't require a rough finish to seat properly. You may not even need to hone it at this point - generally we don't hone at all on rebuilds. My Vortec has 177k on the bores and they weren't touched on my build. Your first set of rings probably finished the job nicely and now you just need a new set.
It really needs to be a plateau hone done in a machine where it is held rigid and the strokes per revolution are controlled. 600 grit diamond stones are generally recommended for modern thin rings. They don't require a rough finish to seat properly. You may not even need to hone it at this point - generally we don't hone at all on rebuilds. My Vortec has 177k on the bores and they weren't touched on my build. Your first set of rings probably finished the job nicely and now you just need a new set.
GD
if I get new summit rings I don't need to hone it ??
not even 500 grit
I always had success in past
I don't want to do all the work and then not last
je never even got back to me
The Chevrolet Power catalog recommended not honing back in the early 80's. It hasn't been a good idea for about 40 years now. I haven't honed a cylinder in more than a decade. Excepting where cylinders have been bored oversized.... Which I recommend against doing if possible as it just needlessly removes material making the block or cylinder liner that much weaker.
Personally I seek out blocks that don't need to be bored or honed. It's just a bad idea all around and always results in an inferior product.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 07-16-2020 at 04:08 PM.
The Chevrolet Power catalog recommended not honing back in the early 80's. It hasn't been a good idea for about 40 years now. I haven't honed a cylinder in more than a decade. Excepting where cylinders have been bored oversized.... Which I recommend against doing if possible as it just needlessly removes material making the block or cylinder liner that much weaker.
Personally I seek out blocks that don't need to be bored or honed. It's just a bad idea all around and always results in an interior product.
The Chevrolet Power catalog recommended not honing back in the early 80's. It hasn't been a good idea for about 40 years now. I haven't honed a cylinder in more than a decade. Excepting where cylinders have been bored oversized.... Which I recommend against doing if possible as it just needlessly removes material making the block or cylinder liner that much weaker.
Personally I seek out blocks that don't need to be bored or honed. It's just a bad idea all around and always results in an interior product.
GD
I mean degazing
why did my rings not last long
2000kms is redicouls
and once I rebuild my old honda crx when I was 19
and It didn't burn oil
I just thought it would be faster
and I didn't deglaze it and it smoked oil bad
and the local machine shop asked me why I didn't hone it and I had to take it all apart and pay for me A rings and do it ones again and then it worked
all 7 engine I built I did this and it worked
they paid me to do it
4 cylinder engine not v8
this car I have to pull the engine out to do it
and my old cars I did it with engine in
Read the link. Deglazing hasn't been a good idea for 40 years. I haven't honed an engine in 15 years for a re-ring. Never been a problem. If it needs a hone then it needs a bore job.... and if it needs that generally I just get one that doesn't need a bore job.... because thicker walls are better.
The rings didn't last because the finish was too aggressive and it overheated them.
Read the link. Deglazing hasn't been a good idea for 40 years. I haven't honed an engine in 15 years for a re-ring. Never been a problem. If it needs a hone then it needs a bore job.... and if it needs that generally I just get one that doesn't need a bore job.... because thicker walls are better.
The rings didn't last because the finish was too aggressive and it overheated them.
GD
Don't believe things you read online
I told you I have exp
and the guy from summit said summit rings need a 400grit to 500 grit hone
and the wiseco guy said that I need to do a leak down test and after that then may be I didn't use good break in oil
I told you I have exp
and the guy from summit said summit rings need a 400grit to 500 grit hone
and the wiseco guy said that I need to do a leak down test and after that then may be I didn't use good break in oil
I thought you were supposed to be smarter than everyone else? This thread has been hilarious to follow
GD has been doing this a lot long than you and does it professionally and you're telling him not to believe something he has read, that's comedy gold right there. Keep it up, i need the laugh
I told you I have exp
and the guy from summit said summit rings need a 400grit to 500 grit hone
and the wiseco guy said that I need to do a leak down test and after that then may be I didn't use good break in oil
Break in oil has nothing to do with it. I "broke in" my Vortec with Amsoil 10w30 Signature Series full synthetic at WOT on my DynoJet making 400 HP.
Your bores are toast now I'm sure. Honed with too aggressive of a surface finish, and now if you hone them again likely your skirt-to-wall clearance will be shot. Probably have to re-bore it to the next oversize and start over.
Your best bet now is to just throw in new rings without touching it AT ALL and hope the previous ruined set polished up the bores to a reasonable finish for a new set of thin rings.
Did you measure skirt-to-wall clearance? Before and after honing?
You don't like it being online..... ok here's an excerpt from the Chevrolet Power book - 5th edition - published by GENERAL MOTORS back in 1984:
That do it for ya? Like I said - honing hasn't been a "good idea" in many decades. Regardless of your "experiences". I've done rings in hundreds of engines without touching the bores and not a single one burns a significant amount of oil - definitely none that foul plugs. That's intense and you may find an assembly error or heavily damaged cylinder wall, etc.
AND - remember that in 1984 they were still using REALLY FAT rings and GM is calling for a 400-500 grit finish 36 years ago with fat rings...... Surface finish requirements for ultra-thin rings are MUCH finer. 1000 grit would be ideal and frankly at that point it may as well just not be touched because the rings will easily seat with a nicely polished bore from the previous ring set. So imagine what your rings look like that are supposed to be seated on a 600-1000 grit wall that you just ran against a 220 grit finish..... they are wrecked.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 07-16-2020 at 04:59 PM.
Break in oil has nothing to do with it. I "broke in" my Vortec with Amsoil 10w30 Signature Series full synthetic at WOT on my DynoJet making 400 HP.
Your bores are toast now I'm sure. Honed with too aggressive of a surface finish, and now if you hone them again likely your skirt-to-wall clearance will be shot. Probably have to re-bore it to the next oversize and start over.
Your best bet now is to just throw in new rings without touching it AT ALL and hope the previous ruined set polished up the bores to a reasonable finish for a new set of thin rings.
Did you measure skirt-to-wall clearance? Before and after honing?
You don't like it being online..... ok here's an excerpt from the Chevrolet Power book - 5th edition - published by GENERAL MOTORS back in 1984:
That do it for ya? Like I said - honing hasn't been a "good idea" in many decades. Regardless of your "experiences". I've done rings in hundreds of engines without touching the bores and not a single one burns a significant amount of oil - definitely none that foul plugs. That's intense and you may find an assembly error or heavily damaged cylinder wall, etc.
AND - remember that in 1984 they were still using REALLY FAT rings and GM is calling for a 400-500 grit finish 36 years ago with fat rings...... Surface finish requirements for ultra-thin rings are MUCH finer. 1000 grit would be ideal and frankly at that point it may as well just not be touched because the rings will easily seat with a nicely polished bore from the previous ring set. So imagine what your rings look like that are supposed to be seated on a 600-1000 grit wall that you just ran against a 220 grit finish..... they are wrecked.
GD
summit told me 400 to 500 grit hone for those rings and I'm sure wiseco knows more than you considering how long they have been in business
I'm getting new summit rings and the 500 grit
hone and I'm gonna take it apart and hone it out
I never honed it out 1 time
they did it at the machine shop
I just assembled it
I have a scope and I took videos of the bore in the plugs when I was doing a compression test
they are like new still.
I have watched those videos 2 times
I wouldn't hone it. Wiseco tells people to hone because if they didn't, and it burned oil they would get blamed for it. They tell people to "lightly" hone with a 400 to 600 grit because they know it won't do any good but most importantly it won't do any harm IN THE SHORT TERM. Long term the wear materials from honing will eat up everything in the engine but by then it will be long past the point where Wiseco will be blamed for it, and Wiseco sells more pistons and more rings when people rebuild more engines. BUT IF THEY told people NOT to hone, and the engine burned oil FOR ANY REASON they would be blamed for it because that is the nature of the OLD WIVES TALE handed down by grandpa.
Think about the $hit storm if Wiseco actually told people NOT to hone..... first of all they can't see how f'd up YOUR bores are. So they continue to tell people a "light hone" with a 500 grit.... it makes people feel better to do it. It serves no purpose of course..... but neither do recreational drugs or religion. But feeling good is what people want. So recreational pharma is BIG BUSINESS, and so it is also with religion.
I worked for an industrial machinery supplier and manufacturer. At one point Baldor (electric motor manufacturer) pulled the grease zerks out of their motors because they used sealed for life bearings that never required any maintenance. Their tech support phone lines BLEW UP with IRATE customers wanting to know where the grease zerk went.... mostly Mill Wrong's who's only tools are a grease gun and a 6 foot snipe. They were IRATE because their company policy was that said Mill Wrong was to dutifully patrol the facility and grease every zerk fitting he came across with at least 250 to 300 pumps of grease twice a day. Well all that does to a sealed bearing is smash the sheild or seal into the bearing race, and pump the cavity between the stator and armature full of grease - usually leading to a fire at some point. Well the ensuing $hit storm of tech support phone calls was resolved how? By putting the damn zerks BACK IN even though they served no purpose. With a TAG that said it "required" 1 or 2 pumps of grease ANNUALLY! LOL. 10-20 pumps after the 10 year service life of the motor is up will not fill the ante-chamber in the bearing pocket and of course the grease can't get through the seal or shield so it SERVES ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE, except to make Mill Wrong's (facility maintenance guy, whatever) FEEL GOOD that they have "serviced" it. You should be able to see how this relates....
So when Wiseco or any other manufacturer gives you a recommendation - consider that it's their ******* on the chopping block when said advise goes south. They give advice that is going to result in the LEAST HARM to their bottom line. Not necessarily the least harm to the customer.
I stand by my recommendation. Don't hone it. Just put in new rings. Hastings brand would be my recommendation or JE if they are JE pistons.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 07-16-2020 at 06:09 PM.
I wouldn't hone it. Wiseco tells people to hone because if they didn't, and it burned oil they would get blamed for it. They tell people to "lightly" hone with a 400 to 600 grit because they know it won't do any good but most importantly it won't do any harm IN THE SHORT TERM. Long term the wear materials from honing will eat up everything in the engine but by then it will be long past the point where Wiseco will be blamed for it, and Wiseco sells more pistons and more rings when people rebuild more engines. BUT IF THEY told people NOT to hone, and the engine burned oil FOR ANY REASON they would be blamed for it because that is the nature of the OLD WIVES TALE handed down by grandpa.
Think about the $hit storm if Wiseco actually told people NOT to hone..... first of all they can't see how f'd up YOUR bores are. So they continue to tell people a "light hone" with a 500 grit.... it makes people feel better to do it. It serves no purpose of course..... but neither do recreational drugs or religion. But feeling good is what people want. So recreational pharma is BIG BUSINESS, and so it is also with religion.
I worked for an industrial machinery supplier and manufacturer. At one point Baldor (electric motor manufacturer) pulled the grease zerks out of their motors because they used sealed for life bearings that never required any maintenance. Their tech support phone lines BLEW UP with IRATE customers wanting to know where the grease zerk went.... mostly Mill Wrong's who's only tools are a grease gun and a 6 foot snipe. They were IRATE because their company policy was that said Mill Wrong was to dutifully patrol the facility and grease every zerk fitting he came across with at least 250 to 300 pumps of grease twice a day. Well all that does to a sealed bearing is smash the sheild or seal into the bearing race, and pump the cavity between the stator and armature full of grease - usually leading to a fire at some point. Well the ensuing $hit storm of tech support phone calls was resolved how? By putting the damn zerks BACK IN even though they served no purpose. With a TAG that said it "required" 1 or 2 pumps of grease ANNUALLY! LOL. 10-20 pumps after the 10 year service life of the motor is up will not fill the ante-chamber in the bearing pocket and of course the grease can't get through the seal or shield so it SERVES ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE, except to make Mill Wrong's (facility maintenance guy, whatever) FEEL GOOD that they have "serviced" it. You should be able to see how this relates....
So when Wiseco or any other manufacturer gives you a recommendation - consider that it's their ******* on the chopping block when said advise goes south. They give advice that is going to result in the LEAST HARM to their bottom line. Not necessarily the least harm to the customer.
I stand by my recommendation. Don't hone it. Just put in new rings. Hastings brand would be my recommendation or JE if they are JE pistons.
GD
we both agree that the machine shop.didnt hone it to the correct grit
now my problem is that my engine that should have lasted 200k last 2000kms
there is something sending away my rings
and I have never had this happen to me before
I only have my past experience with dsms and Honda's
if you were here to do all the work to rip apart the engine
change it all and then it lasted another 2000kms like this time
it's real easy to sit on a computer or cell and type
and not so easy to cone here and help me do it
I do not have a engine stand
I have to do it with the engine in the car
and I may have to pull my t56 off the car to do it
Why would wiseco tell me that when I'm not ever buying anything from then
ever again
if I ruined my motor and they kept trying to sell me new rings then I would agree with you
I told them that I'm buying summit / Hastings rings and both told me a light 400 to 500 grit hone
now I have to pull my car apart sitting in the driveway
doing something that should have never happened in the first place .
I don't think the machine shop ever honed it after they bored it
and it doesn't say it on the receipt
The rings that are in the engine now have polished it up in 2k miles to a reasonable finish for new rings. Just slap rings in it and run it.
I have "experience" with a TON of different engines. Lots of Subaru's and EVO's, GM, Ford, and many others. As a performance shop we see just about everything.
The rings that are in the engine now have polished it up in 2k miles to a reasonable finish for new rings. Just slap rings in it and run it.
I have "experience" with a TON of different engines. Lots of Subaru's and EVO's, GM, Ford, and many others. As a performance shop we see just about everything.
GD
look I'm not calling you a liar but I have to go on evidence
je never even emailed me back
pretty weak company
and I melted holed through there forged piston in 3 months
and they denied me my money back
there **** stuff wiseco didn't do that
I still have it in my other car
and when I get it ripped apart I'll Let you know if the tranny comes off or not
I'm gonna try it with tranny on first
If you melted a piston then your fueling/timing is way off in that cylinder. I use almost exclusively JE pistons and have used hundreds of sets. I've never melted a piston on ANY engine, regardless of piston brand, but that's just careful attention to detail and ensuring the fueling and timing aren't a mess. A vacuum leak in the wrong spot could lean out a cylinder enough to melt a piston. Melted pistons are NEVER the fault of the piston. Aluminium melts at 1,221 degrees F..... if the piston got that hot, you probably have combustion temps approaching 2000 degrees and that's just a really bad lean condition due to improper fueling, vacuum leak, or exceptionally retarded timing in that cylinder.
If you melted a piston then your fueling/timing is way off in that cylinder. I use almost exclusively JE pistons and have used hundreds of sets. I've never melted a piston on ANY engine, regardless of piston brand, but that's just careful attention to detail and ensuring the fueling and timing aren't a mess. A vacuum leak in the wrong spot could lean out a cylinder enough to melt a piston. Melted pistons are NEVER the fault of the piston. Aluminium melts at 1,221 degrees F..... if the piston got that hot, you probably have combustion temps approaching 2000 degrees and that's just a really bad lean condition due to improper fueling, vacuum leak, or exceptionally retarded timing in that cylinder.
GD
there is no way I melted a piston
if I did in would have 0 compression in that cylinder
I have 180 across the board
Down from 205psi
the only thing I have right now is the rings are gone
it's still starts and runs perfect
I'm choosing to shut it off and not drive it making it worse
I also had a scope in the cylinders
07-11-2020, 07:21 PM
